Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6   Go Down

Author Topic: Here's how to build a real deal 6M tube amp.  (Read 1745 times)

VE7RF

  • Member
  • Posts: 1609
Re: Here's how to build a real deal 6M tube amp.
« Reply #30 on: September 10, 2022, 09:15:56 AM »

Quote
To the nay-sayers, this is where TUBE amps are going.  And with a life expectancy of 30K hours of continuous operation, if the new owner is 30 years old he will never need to replace the tube in his lifetime. 

Giving a 30 year-old a 10KW 6M high voltage amplifier built on the cheap out of surplus parts is a little like giving a 14-year-old a rusty WWII surplus grenade launcher and saying "Have at it!" in a busy neighborhood.

It this REALLY a good idea?  What will it really be used for?  And given the infrastructure needed to support it (antenna+feedline+power for 10 KW) and its lack of band agility, how useful IS it, really?



Brian - K6BRN

Brian, stick to your aerospace fantasy land....and leave the real amp engineering / design / construction / fabrication / safety issues / parts procurement / and building.... to Scott, myself, Shane, and other's.  All of us have been around the block several dozen times.  Ditto with the infrastructure / coax / antenna's / baluns / connectors.   This isn't the 1st 10 kw  6M amp I have been involved with.

Read my lips. Other than the socket, and vac load cap, everything in this build is brand new components...(both RF deck in box #1..and HV supply in box #2).  The 6 kv for the B+..... is hardwired at both ends...via RG-393 teflon coax.  Strain relief at both ends on each respective rear wall. Double shielded (silver plated)  braid peeled WAY back. Copper strap installed around the 1/2" of exposed braid, bolted with a machine screw..(and silver soldered)..and then copper strap routed to chassis...all one piece of strap.    Center conductor gets the usual crimped (and silver soldered) lug..and terminates  where it's supposed to.   It's perfectly safe.

If your attorney wife wants to sue somebody, sue the  James Millen company, who makes the mickey mouse.. '7 kv'  phenolic (aka...hygroscopic / absorbs moisture)  HV connectors.   Shane got blasted, cuz one tiny strand of the HV wire didn't go into the male connector, but stuck out the side 1-2 mm.  Drake used the same connector, but installed heat shrink over the male connector.. but left it not quite shrunk at the cable end, since the  connector needs to rotate..to screw into the mating chassis mounted female connector.   Ever seen a Millen male connector ?  The cable is terminated 2 mm inside the connector.

And no, it's not being..'built on the cheap with surplus parts'.  And no, it's not being sold to a 30 yr old.  It's a fn expensive amp to build.   That's what the client wants... and that's what there gonna get....... the best. 
Logged

K6BRN

  • Member
  • Posts: 2231
Re: Here's how to build a real deal 6M tube amp.
« Reply #31 on: September 10, 2022, 09:52:48 AM »

Hi James (VE7RF)!

So nice to talk to you again. 

I'm not sure what areospace has to do with this.  And I'm very comfortably retired, so it makes no difference anyway.  I guess whatever I did worked.

You chose to talk about the 10KW 6M amp you're building for a customer and started this thread.  By mentioning the 10 KW amp is being driven by a 1 KW amateur amp you petty much pegged the application as amateur and basically (very) illegal at 10 KW, where the CA PEP limit is 2250 Watts or 750 Watts carrier.  You said the parts were surplus and K8VUL added something about a 30 year old owner never having to change the tube.

That's probably why you're getting so much flak in reply from other hams.  If I've misinterpreted this, please let me know.  And if I am, I apologise.

Brian - K6BRN

Brian - K6BRN
Logged

KB8VUL

  • Member
  • Posts: 654
Re: Here's how to build a real deal 6M tube amp.
« Reply #32 on: September 10, 2022, 12:23:01 PM »

Hi James (VE7RF)!

You chose to talk about the 10KW 6M amp you're building for a customer and started this thread.  By mentioning the 10 KW amp is being driven by a 1 KW amateur amp you petty much pegged the application as amateur and basically (very) illegal at 10 KW, where the CA PEP limit is 2250 Watts or 750 Watts carrier.  You said the parts were surplus and K8VUL added something about a 30 year old owner never having to change the tube.


Brian - K6BRN

First it's KB8VUL.  There is a requirement to LOG all contacts and verify call signs.  Since ham's are now using the internet, It's a legal mode of communications and requirements are there since we are getting all worried about what's legal. 

Gonna assume that you are one of those people that will sit in the left lane and run the posted speed limit to slow traffic so no one else can speed right?

What others choose to do it their business.  Are you hurt because you don't have that much pwer to smash through a pile up?  Do you even operate on 6 meters?  And as long as the builder operates the amp into a dummy load, he's not breaking any laws.  Has the buyer said he's gonna run it on ham?  We have no idea where it's going, who it's going to and what their specific regulations are.  There are a TON of HF amplifiers out there, not in the US that FAR exceed 1500 watts, some by 10dB or more. 

And parts is parts.  Hams have been building equipment from discarded crap for YEARS.  The 60's and 70's were the heyday of that.  Look at the projects that were in the ARRL handbooks of that time and you can see were it talks about the stuff to take from a scrap TV set for your parts bins and the applications for them. 

It's true that some stuff is gonna be better new.  But tube sockets, large transmitter tubes and vacuum variables are things that are NOT gonna go bad over time. Tubes might get a bit weaker but Commercial broadcasters will pull a tube long before it's EOL because it's a pain and expensive to be off the air.  Ham's can afford to not be on the air.  It costs them nothing.  And mil-surp parts are typically new old stock that they no longer have application for. 
Logged

N0GV

  • Posts: 627
    • HomeURL
Re: Here's how to build a real deal 6M tube amp.
« Reply #33 on: September 10, 2022, 12:47:25 PM »

Brian,

I agree with your evaluation about the foolhardiness of building such a beast and then handing it over to an inexperienced 3rd party. Such transmitters, when commercially made and placed in commercial service, are maintained by trained professionals, not by amateurs. I rate Shane as a dangerous and foolish amateur for working on an amplifier with power applied to it. As a professional I would NOT hire him nor clear him for any position of responsibility based upon his blase attitude about safety (working on a hot amp) and his inability to accept honest guidance from those who have.

Just because the legal minimum caliber for deer hunting is a .243 doesn't give you a license to use a 20mm Lahti in your local woods even if it is "technically" legal for deer. Much like the described amplifier the consequences downrange are much too far ranging and dangerous for this caliber.

Shane,

I am certain that, once again you will give us lots of flames but, by your own admission, the facts are: You worked on an amplifier with power applied; you nearly died as a result, you are now preaching to the masses the virtues of working with extremely dangerous systems.

Keith,

Is your product going through UL certification? If it doesn't then I can assure you that it may not be legal to sell it to a consumer, many states have that very thoroughly embedded in their statutes and codes. More importantly you are dead meat in any court proceedings if your amp isn't certified.... I'll bet Brian's wife is agreeing with this. In fact, should anyone get injured by your unsafe product, I would be willing to testify against you and this exchange would be exhibit number 1 for the plaintiff. Likewise, since it is being sold or done as a work for hire you will need FCC Certification prior to sale... the reason the Mercury III amp was a kit for so long was the need for FCC Certification prior to a ready to go product being offered.

Both Shane and Keith,

I don't care about your opinions on this. You are extolling the virtues of an unsafe practice and I'm not going to alter my stance on that at any time in the next millenium. I sure as shooting am not going to validate or endorse your unsafe practices for others to emulate.

I suggest that you re-think this entire project and your exposure to consequences for it.

To all readers of this forum - the practices and goals of this "project" appear to be both irresponsible and bordering upon being illegal please do NOT attempt this at home! I like my ham cooked and my HAMS un-fried!

Sincerely,

Grover

Logged

K6BRN

  • Member
  • Posts: 2231
Re: Here's how to build a real deal 6M tube amp.
« Reply #34 on: September 10, 2022, 01:00:30 PM »

First it's KB8VUL.  There is a requirement to LOG all contacts and verify call signs.  Since ham's are now using the internet, It's a legal mode of communications and requirements are there since we are getting all worried about what's legal.

Sorry about that Keith ...  KB8VUL.  Not intentional. 

I'm not too worried about the legality of your activities or products.  But perhaps you should be?  This is a public, discoverable forum, right?

Gonna assume that you are one of those people that will sit in the left lane and run the posted speed limit to slow traffic so no one else can speed right?

Heh!  Not so much.   I don't enforce the law or block others when driving - lane discipline is important.  But I am getting older, my reflexes are not quite what they used to be and i am slowing down a bit more when driving.  Seems like the prudent thing to do.  I like prudent.

What others choose to do it their business.

Yep.  Right up to the point that somebody gets hurt.  Then things change.

Are you hurt because you don't have that much pwer to smash through a pile up?  Do you even operate on 6 meters?  And as long as the builder operates the amp into a dummy load, he's not breaking any laws.

Nope.  I've had a good life and have nothing to prove.  Having the biggest antenna, amplifier, etc. in this hobby to feel good about myself is not really necessary.

Has the buyer said he's gonna run it on ham? 

I don't know.  Has he?  At least we know it's a "he".

We have no idea where it's going, who it's going to and what their specific regulations are.  There are a TON of HF amplifiers out there, not in the US that FAR exceed 1500 watts, some by 10dB or more
.

Yep.  Plenty of commercial stations out there.  Is this one of them?

And parts is parts.  Hams have been building equipment from discarded crap for YEARS.  The 60's and 70's were the heyday of that.  Look at the projects that were in the ARRL handbooks of that time and you can see were it talks about the stuff to take from a scrap TV set for your parts bins and the applications for them. 

I've heard that said many times, but its rarely true.  Parts age, storage and use conditions matter - general pedigree - is usually pretty important and reflected in their price.

It's true that some stuff is gonna be better new.  But tube sockets, large transmitter tubes and vacuum variables are things that are NOT gonna go bad over time. Tubes might get a bit weaker but Commercial broadcasters will pull a tube long before it's EOL because it's a pain and expensive to be off the air.  Ham's can afford to not be on the air.  It costs them nothing.  And mil-surp parts are typically new old stock that they no longer have application for.


If you say so.  It's your sale, I guess.

Brian - K6BRN
Logged

W9IQ

  • Member
  • Posts: 8866
Re: Here's how to build a real deal 6M tube amp.
« Reply #35 on: September 10, 2022, 03:42:49 PM »

Likewise, since it is being sold or done as a work for hire you will need FCC Certification prior to sale... the reason the Mercury III amp was a kit for so long was the need for FCC Certification prior to a ready to go product being offered.

Grover,

Actually it doesn't as long as any of the exemptions of 97.315(b) apply. Particularly note exemption (3):

(1) The amplifier is constructed or modified by an amateur radio operator for use at an amateur station.

(2) The amplifier was manufactured before April 28, 1978, and has been issued a marketing waiver by the FCC, or the amplifier was purchased before April 28, 1978, by an amateur radio operator for use at that operator's station.

(3) The amplifier is sold to an amateur radio operator or to a dealer, the amplifier is purchased in used condition by a dealer, or the amplifier is sold to an amateur radio operator for use at that operator's station.

- Glenn W9IQ
Logged
- Glenn W9IQ

God runs electromagnetics on Monday, Wednesday and Friday by the wave theory and the devil runs it on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday by the Quantum theory.

W9IQ

  • Member
  • Posts: 8866
Re: Here's how to build a real deal 6M tube amp.
« Reply #36 on: September 10, 2022, 03:44:39 PM »

There is a requirement to LOG all contacts and verify call signs. 

I hope you are joking. As of this October, we haven't had to log contacts for the last 40 years. We never had to verify call signs.

- Glenn W9IQ
« Last Edit: September 10, 2022, 03:48:33 PM by W9IQ »
Logged
- Glenn W9IQ

God runs electromagnetics on Monday, Wednesday and Friday by the wave theory and the devil runs it on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday by the Quantum theory.

KM4AH

  • Member
  • Posts: 1615
Re: Here's how to build a real deal 6M tube amp.
« Reply #37 on: September 10, 2022, 07:01:05 PM »

LOL, you are an inexperienced third party, only I am am smart enough.
Logged

VE7RF

  • Member
  • Posts: 1609
Re: Here's how to build a real deal 6M tube amp.
« Reply #38 on: September 10, 2022, 11:00:05 PM »

Afaik, Shane wasn't working on the amp at the time, he was behind all the gear, and brushed up against the single, tiny strand, protruding..1-2mm sideways from the (incorrectly installed) Millen 'hv' connector.  Shane learned the hard way, and now uses proper HV rated connectors.  Typ, 10 kv, red Belden test prod wire (silicone covered) was used with those millen connectors...and that stuff is 18 ga stranded...and each strand is miniscule.  You wouldn't even see  one strand sticking out the side. Other HV cables commonly used is GTO wire.  The millen connectors have several issues with em, one being, zero strain relief, not shielded, hygroscopic, not rated for 7 kv, can and will arc to the metal mounting screws, used to mount the female chassis end of the connector to the chassis.

Some will mount the female end from the inside of the chassis (RL Drake)..and some will mount on the outside of the chassis...(how millen depicts their use).  If mounted on the outside of the chassis, the leakage path on the inside is non existent.  If mounted on the inside, the chassis / rear panel has to be thin material. If it's too thick, the male end will bottom out onto the rear apron... and threads will not be fully engaged.  I have used em off and on for 50 years.  They are a stupid connector.  I still use em on my drake amps, and there, they are mounted from the inside, on thin material, and max B+ is 2650 vdc.   Drake used thick insulation on the hv cable, and the way it comes out of the main cable, has loads of strain relief.   Other tricks to increase the leakage path is to use nylon mounting screws instead of metal, and also to install some thin, teflon sheeting between the millen female body...and chassis.
On any other amp, either hard wired at RF deck end... or both ends.  If HV connectors used, proper connectors, designed for the application are installed.

Grover, next time  I work on a SB-220, Henry 8k, or any other tube amp, HB or commercially made,   I'll be sure to defer to some.. 'trained professional'.  One can easily get killed working on an AL-811 amp vs anything bigger.

If somebody wants to sue somebody, sue the James Millen company, for their marketing of their infamous 'HV' (death trap) connectors. While you at it, sue the ARRL for their unsafe designs in the ARRL handbooks over the years. Any idiot knows a B+ meter gets directly wired between the B+ and B- of the filter cap assy in the HV supply...and NOT between the B+...downstream from the filter caps...and chassis.  Any idiot knows that when  the RF deck is in one box..and the HV supply is in another box, BOTH boxes get a  HV meter..and both of em are wired directly between the B+ and the B-.

Some of the....'interlocks' ..... I have seen on commercial gear leave a lot to be desired.   Some will just dump the power to the primary contactor....leaving the filter caps charged up...until they bleed down over time.  Some will slam the B+ to chassis ground  (and not directly to the B-).  Never seen one ...yet, that has a redundant , correctly wired interlock safety setup.   On the last B+ supply I built, we used a series pair of red neons..wired across the last lytic (B- cold end) in the HV supply.  With supply on..... you can see the pair of red neons from 50' away.  Multiple, redundant  interlocks used, B+ fed to the B-, shorting out the supply.   Power to main contactor opened off.  HV fuse installed between secondary  of plate xfmr and diode board. 2nd HV fuse installed in series with the B+ output..which feeds the glitch resistor assy.
Controlled magnetic hydraulic 2 pole breaker used in the 240 vac primary, with neons on both the input + output side of breaker...complete with aux contacts, and more neons. Aux contacts used on main contactor.   

Separate B+ meters in both RF deck..and HV supply.  It's about as safe as I can get it.  I can cro-bar anything, anywhere, and nothing happens ....except blown HV fuse(s)  and  / or main breaker.  It's fully protected...and  safe. .
« Last Edit: September 10, 2022, 11:07:12 PM by VE7RF »
Logged

W9FIB

  • Member
  • Posts: 3501
    • HomeURL
Re: Here's how to build a real deal 6M tube amp.
« Reply #39 on: September 11, 2022, 04:05:15 AM »

To move or blindly reach behind ANYTHING with high voltage is just dumb. One of the first things they teach in arc flash safety classes. No matter how "safe" it was designed, does not make it safe. Never assume anything is safe until you know it is.

I don't think 10kW is a criteria that meets the FCC intent when it comes to being legal and non-certified for amateur use based on maximum power allowed on amateur bands. But that's my totally non-legal opinion based on common sense.
Logged
73, Stan
Travelling the world one signal at a time.

W9IQ

  • Member
  • Posts: 8866
Re: Here's how to build a real deal 6M tube amp.
« Reply #40 on: September 11, 2022, 04:22:24 AM »

I don't think 10kW is a criteria that meets the FCC intent when it comes to being legal and non-certified for amateur use based on maximum power allowed on amateur bands. But that's my totally non-legal opinion based on common sense.

The FCC doesn't regulate the output capability of an external amplifier but rather only the emitted power according to the license class, mode, frequency and geography.

To move or blindly reach behind ANYTHING with high voltage is just dumb. One of the first things they teach in arc flash safety classes. No matter how "safe" it was designed, does not make it safe. Never assume anything is safe until you know it is.

+1. I couldn't agree more.

The notion that you could trust a front panel B+ meter to indicate it is safe to reach in is foolishness.

- Glenn W9IQ
« Last Edit: September 11, 2022, 04:28:53 AM by W9IQ »
Logged
- Glenn W9IQ

God runs electromagnetics on Monday, Wednesday and Friday by the wave theory and the devil runs it on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday by the Quantum theory.

KD6VXI

  • Member
  • Posts: 1022
Re: Here's how to build a real deal 6M tube amp.
« Reply #41 on: September 11, 2022, 10:04:36 AM »

Hi Shane:

Your decisions are yours alone, and so are the consequences of irresponsibility.  The 1.5 KW Henry you once purchased is in-family to this hobby, a 10 KW 6M amplifier is not.

My XYL is an attorney who practiced liability for years and whose specialty was electrocution cases.  She's standing behind me shaking her head right now.  You might want to go back and read W9FIB's post on the topic.

Regarding "being able to fix stupid"... Death is not a fix, its a failure.  Which is why we have railings on stairways.  To make mistakes as recoverable as possible, without anyone being seriously injured.

Regarding your heart issues - you have my sympathies.  That's nothing to take lightly.  Glad you survived and I wish you many years of good health.

Brian - K6BRN

Being in family or not (as to the Henry) doesn't really matter.  Henry sold the 8K and that's pretty much what we are discussing here.  Just a different band.  As long as you have the same stickers, the same disclaimers, you won't be more liable than Ameritron, Henry, etc.  Precedent is set.  You have to build to the same standard, however.  I did have interlocks that would disable hv, say, when someone took the lid off.

Another thing to think about is:  If someone is wanting to have a 3x6 built, it likely isn't their first rodeo.  Granted, 6 meters is pretty much a forgotten about band by all amp manufacturers, sans Henry.... 

Thanks for the kind words.  So far so good.  Medication surely helps now.  But 8 hours of ablation was not fun.  Not going to try it again, that's for sure :)

--Shane
WP2ASS / ex KD6VXI

Logged

KD6VXI

  • Member
  • Posts: 1022
Re: Here's how to build a real deal 6M tube amp.
« Reply #42 on: September 11, 2022, 10:13:24 AM »

Brian,

<<SNIP>>
Shane,

I am certain that, once again you will give us lots of flames but, by your own admission, the facts are: You worked on an amplifier with power applied; you nearly died as a result, you are now preaching to the masses the virtues of working with extremely dangerous systems.
<<SNIP>>
Both Shane and Keith,

I don't care about your opinions on this. You are extolling the virtues of an unsafe practice and I'm not going to alter my stance on that at any time in the next millenium. I sure as shooting am not going to validate or endorse your unsafe practices for others to emulate.

I suggest that you re-think this entire project and your exposure to consequences for it.

To all readers of this forum - the practices and goals of this "project" appear to be both irresponsible and bordering upon being illegal please do NOT attempt this at home! I like my ham cooked and my HAMS un-fried!

Sincerely,

Grover

You would be wrong.  I was moving some microphone cables that where hanging behind the amplifier.  It was in standby.  I was finished working on the RF deck and was getting ready to test said amplifier.  This is all very well documented on this site, amfone and others.

I wouldn't make many more assumptions, based on the fact you wrote an entire diatribe and was wrong about it.

As to you clearing me to do anything....  Our government saw fit to give me a clearance, my licensing entity for work saw fit to give me clearance.

Your opinion matters not to them, nor to me.


--Shane
WP2ASS / ex KD6VXI
Logged

KB8VUL

  • Member
  • Posts: 654
Re: Here's how to build a real deal 6M tube amp.
« Reply #43 on: September 11, 2022, 10:58:38 AM »

I guess 'discussing' anything here is basically pointless.  Everyone has an opinion, and you are as likely to find any sort of agreement here as you are a Trump supporter that voted for Biden or the other way around. 
That being said.  They guy is constructing an amplifier.  All the complaining and 'legal' saber rattling isn't gonna change that fact.  It's gonna get built, it's going to his customer and it what it gets used for is HIS business and not any of ours.  None of you are an FCC field agent, or in the path of enforcement of the regulations pertaining to ham radio, if you are then quit posting nonsense and actually do your job.  God knows this is small potatoes compared to other stuff happening on the ham bands.

You seem to really care about all this, and it doesn't actually effect YOU.  If I were to decide to crank up 10Kw in Ohio, no one with outside 8 land will be in ANY way be effected by that.  So why sit and twitch about it.  I guess the real question is, are you in the ham radio hobby to talk on the radio, or did you get your call sign so you could get on eHam and QRZ and play radio cop?  If that's the case, limit your nonsense to the EMCOMM area with the rest of the orange vest light bar crowd.
 
Otherwise, the next time someone starts talking about something of this nature, shut up, watch the videos and read his comments and maybe learn something.  Because I promise you, OP ain't gonna bother with giving us any updates at this point.  It's not worth the hassle to him to do it and listen to the clowns on here talk about how he's doing it wrong, it being illegal, how their lawyer wife who specializes in electric shock victim claims (is that even really a thing) see's OP having personal liability and employing 'used' parts are all the wrong way to go about it. 

And for those of you I am specifically referring to. All of you that wonder why we see the issued license count increasing, and hear guys get on the bands for a week or two and then disappear.  Part of it is the fact they ran across some of these people that have this mentality and thought process and figure all hams are like this, toss their crap in a closet and in 10 years let their license expire because THEY don't feel it's worth it to be bothered by people that complain about such things. 
Logged

VR2AX

  • Member
  • Posts: 2233
Re: Here's how to build a real deal 6M tube amp.
« Reply #44 on: September 11, 2022, 01:28:41 PM »

Don't knock the lawyers. They only get involved when things have gone wrong. Most cases its just ..oh..

My first death inquest case was a poor 20ish squatter who had tried to free tap on an overhead wire to power his wok. 220v with power behind it in the 80s. No case to answer.

One in the 90s when a CLP substation went bad, no known wrongdoers. Two widows. No case to question.

Last was a 2 year old around 2017  June as I recall getting the phone call as the sun not yet setting as the ship rolled in. Of course they blamed the family but perseverance is the way I always feel.

A few marine casualties in the double figures. They always sue.

Someone has to clean up or account for the mess. Do you feel lucky today I wonder.

Shane - the AF may not be totally reversible over time but just keep doing what you have to do OM.
Logged
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6   Go Up