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Author Topic: Here's how to build a real deal 6M tube amp.  (Read 1747 times)

W9FIB

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Re: Here's how to build a real deal 6M tube amp.
« Reply #45 on: September 12, 2022, 04:29:32 AM »

I don't think 10kW is a criteria that meets the FCC intent when it comes to being legal and non-certified for amateur use based on maximum power allowed on amateur bands. But that's my totally non-legal opinion based on common sense.

The FCC doesn't regulate the output capability of an external amplifier but rather only the emitted power according to the license class, mode, frequency and geography.
- Glenn W9IQ

Yes, I agree that they don't actually regulate the amplifier output. But the other rules, like you stated, do regulate how you use them. So to me setting limitations is an intent to help limit amplifier sizes. Maybe that is just my own personal interpretation.

To be honest, I do believe in a bit of headroom to run an amp efficiently at legal levels. But 10 kW is not headroom...it's ridiculous for the ham bands.
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73, Stan
Travelling the world one signal at a time.

K6BRN

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Re: Here's how to build a real deal 6M tube amp.
« Reply #46 on: September 12, 2022, 06:07:39 AM »

While there is no doubt that posted opinions will make little difference to the OP, he did solicit them by putting a brag post on an open public forum.  And it was about a fringe application that seemed dubious at best.

Had he said: "Hey!  I just designed, built installed and tested a 10KW commercial transmitter for a new broadcast station in VI!", the reaction onine would likely have been more positive.

But that's not what was posted and some critical feedback was received.  Notice that it was never denied that the 10KW amp could be very dangerous in the wrong hands or that it was going into the "wrong" hands.

Just a "Sergent Shultz" like (I know nothing, I see nothing) statement that the end user is unknown, so everything must really be OK.

There's a good reason that line was used in a comedy routine.

And similar posts have been placed with similar results by the same authors, before. Nothing new here and enough said.

Heading back to reality, now ..

Brian - K6BRN
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VE7RF

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Re: Here's how to build a real deal 6M tube amp.
« Reply #47 on: September 12, 2022, 08:00:24 AM »

Nobody is bragging abt anything.  It's one helluva lot of hard work involved.  But you knew that already right, cuz you have designed, fabricated and built a dozen of em.  If you think it's that easy, build one urself.   I posted the same info on 3 x fb amp building groups..and also 2 amp building internet groups...and here on e-ham.  E-ham is the only place we are getting any flak from.  That was a dumb move on my part, posting on e-ham.  Shoulda known better, since e-ham users are mainly appliance ops at the best of times, and have very little practical skill sets.

With amp systems inc (ASI) in Northridge, LA,  now out of business, and bear-el in Japan no longer making tube amps, there is a niche market for high powered tube amps for various applications.   I have already received multiple requests   for all sorts of projects,  from all over the planet...just in the last week.

On a side note,  bear-el  in Japan is know focusing his efforts on  LDMOS amps, including  4 kw 6M amps....and also 9kw 144 mhz amps, stay tuned for more offerings from him.

http://www.bear-el.com/

2m 8kw amp.  http://www.bear-el.com/conby/

4kw  6M amp.  http://www.bear-el.com/uj-106lds/


On  Dr Alex Gava's FB site..and on his website,   you can see hundreds of pix of hb tube amps.   Some of the ingenuity is astounding.

On the RF  SSPA   FB page,  you can see hundreds of various SS  PA's that have been built.  Some of the cooling and esp water cooling techniques employed are extremely clever.   Comparing any of the above...to the  drivel here on  e-ham is like night and day.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2022, 08:13:36 AM by VE7RF »
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KM4AH

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Re: Here's how to build a real deal 6M tube amp.
« Reply #48 on: September 12, 2022, 03:10:44 PM »

 My hat's off to anybody who wants to build them.  I don't think there is enough money for me to build another one.
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N0GV

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Re: Here's how to build a real deal 6M tube amp.
« Reply #49 on: September 12, 2022, 04:19:32 PM »

Likewise, since it is being sold or done as a work for hire you will need FCC Certification prior to sale... the reason the Mercury III amp was a kit for so long was the need for FCC Certification prior to a ready to go product being offered.

Grover,

Actually it doesn't as long as any of the exemptions of 97.315(b) apply. Particularly note exemption (3):

(1) The amplifier is constructed or modified by an amateur radio operator for use at an amateur station.

(2) The amplifier was manufactured before April 28, 1978, and has been issued a marketing waiver by the FCC, or the amplifier was purchased before April 28, 1978, by an amateur radio operator for use at that operator's station.

(3) The amplifier is sold to an amateur radio operator or to a dealer, the amplifier is purchased in used condition by a dealer, or the amplifier is sold to an amateur radio operator for use at that operator's station.

- Glenn W9IQ

Glenn,

Transmitters cannot be offered for sale without FCC certification.  Amplifiers made by a ham for use by another ham is a grey area I would not like to get into. Also, there is NO evidence that this amp is being built for a ham... and plenty to suggest that it is for a pirate application. There are precious few antennas out there that can handle 10kW that are not commercial TV and, with that sort of power and a directional antenna (10 dBi ) you need about 300' of distance between any people and the antenna....
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W9IQ

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Re: Here's how to build a real deal 6M tube amp.
« Reply #50 on: September 12, 2022, 04:33:28 PM »

Likewise, since it is being sold or done as a work for hire you will need FCC Certification prior to sale... the reason the Mercury III amp was a kit for so long was the need for FCC Certification prior to a ready to go product being offered.

Grover,

Actually it doesn't as long as any of the exemptions of 97.315(b) apply. Particularly note exemption (3):

(1) The amplifier is constructed or modified by an amateur radio operator for use at an amateur station.

(2) The amplifier was manufactured before April 28, 1978, and has been issued a marketing waiver by the FCC, or the amplifier was purchased before April 28, 1978, by an amateur radio operator for use at that operator's station.

(3) The amplifier is sold to an amateur radio operator or to a dealer, the amplifier is purchased in used condition by a dealer, or the amplifier is sold to an amateur radio operator for use at that operator's station.

- Glenn W9IQ

Glenn,

Transmitters cannot be offered for sale without FCC certification.  Amplifiers made by a ham for use by another ham is a grey area I would not like to get into.

There is no Part 97 certification required or available for a transmitter.

Exemption B that I listed allows volume commercial production of any quantity and one-off productions like the amp of this discussion, without the need for certification. Just read 97.315.

- Glenn W9IQ
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- Glenn W9IQ

God runs electromagnetics on Monday, Wednesday and Friday by the wave theory and the devil runs it on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday by the Quantum theory.

K6BRN

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Re: Here's how to build a real deal 6M tube amp.
« Reply #51 on: September 12, 2022, 08:45:29 PM »

Glenn, Grover - with all due respect to two very opinionated hams, I think you're both wrong.

First of all, this is about an AMPLIFIER not a "transmitter", per the OP's title for the thread.  Someone is being just a little too literal in this debate, which does not help.

The "gross error" made by both parties in the debate by labeling an AMPLIFIER as a TRANSMITTER - and not correcting that mistake - will be overlooked for the following.  :)

We don't know how to classify this animal because we don't know who it's going to, what capacity it will be used in nor where it will be used.  In the absence of this information, neither Glenn nor Grover can be definitively correct regarding an AMPLIFIER. Only the OP knows for sure

Quoting FCC rules suggests it will sold to and used by a USA person or entity.  And we don't know that, either.  Unless I've missed something in the posts (been known to happen).

Quote
97.315 Certification of external RF power amplifiers.
(a) Any external RF power amplifier (see § 2.815 of the FCC Rules) manufactured or imported for use at an amateur radio station must be certificated for use in the amateur service in accordance with subpart J of part 2 of the FCC Rules. No amplifier capable of operation below 144 MHz may be constructed or modified by a non-amateur service licensee without a grant of certification from the FCC.

(b) The requirement of paragraph (a) does not apply if one or more of the following conditions are met:

(1) The amplifier is constructed or modified by an amateur radio operator for use at an amateur station.

(2) The amplifier was manufactured before April 28, 1978, and has been issued a marketing waiver by the FCC, or the amplifier was purchased before April 28, 1978, by an amateur radio operator for use at that operator's station.

(3) The amplifier is sold to an amateur radio operator or to a dealer, the amplifier is purchased in used condition by a dealer, or the amplifier is sold to an amateur radio operator for use at that operator's station.

(c) Any external RF power amplifier appearing in the Commission's database as certificated for use in the amateur service may be marketed for use in the amateur service.

If it was built specifically for USA amateur radio AND If it were to be sold to a (USA) 3rd party who was not a dealer nor a radio amateur (an off-band or on-band CB'er, for instance), it would be illegal. 

If it were sold to a USA amateur radio operator or dealer then operated by that entity over more than 15% capability on the air then it's USE would be illegal.

Likewise the conclusion that the amplifier by itself is legal is not defensible either, based on what we don't know. Crimeny, for all we know it could be going to the Chinese military, and none of this matters.  But not likely.

Only the O.P. knows for sure, hence my earlier comments - only he can determine the wisdom of his actions and legality of the amplifier.  And he's not saying.  He just happened to post the topic on an amateur forum, which in that context, seems sketchy.

BTW - In the USA, if the amplifier has nothing at all to do with the amateur service, then the following seems to apply...

Quote
2.815 External radio frequency power amplifiers.
(a) As used in this part, an external radio frequency power amplifier is any device which, (1) when used in conjunction with a radio transmitter as a signal source is capable of amplification of that signal, and (2) is not an integral part of a radio transmitter as manufactured.

(b) No person shall manufacture, sell or lease, offer for sale or lease (including advertising for sale or lease) or import, ship or distribute for the purpose of selling or leasing or offering for sale or lease, any external radio frequency power amplifier capable of operation on any frequency or frequencies below 144 MHz unless the amplifier has received a grant of certification in accordance with subpart J of this part and other relevant parts of this chapter. These amplifiers shall comply with the following:

(1) The external radio frequency power amplifier shall not be capable of amplification in the frequency band 26-28 MHz.

(2) The amplifier shall not be capable of easy modification to permit its use as an amplifier in the frequency band 26-28 MHz.

(3) No more than 10 external radio frequency power amplifiers may be constructed for evaluation purposes in preparation for the submission of an application for a grant of certification.

(4) If the external radio frequency power amplifier is intended for operation in the Amateur Radio Service under part 97 of this chapter, the requirements of §§ 97.315 and 97.317 of this chapter shall be met.

I don't see item#3 as a reliable "get out of jail free" card used by claiming the product is for evaluation LEADING to certification - you'd have to make and win that case.  A 10KW amateur amplifier made as part of a commercial sale where duplication would be difficult or limited due to lack of parts might have a hard time on this score.

Also FYI, if the amplifier MUST be certified for AMATEUR service, then:

Quote
97.317 Standards for certification of external RF power amplifiers.
(a) To receive a grant of certification, the amplifier must:

(1) Satisfy the spurious emission standards of § 97.307 (d) or (e) of this part, as applicable, when the amplifier is operated at the lesser of 1.5 kW PEP or its full output power and when the amplifier is placed in the “standby” or “off” positions while connected to the transmitter.

(2) Not be capable of amplifying the input RF power (driving signal) by more than 15 dB gain. Gain is defined as the ratio of the input RF power to the output RF power of the amplifier where both power measurements are expressed in peak envelope power or mean power.

(3) Exhibit no amplification (0 dB gain) between 26 MHz and 28 MHz.

(b) Certification shall be denied when:

(1) The Commission determines the amplifier can be used in services other than the Amateur Radio Service, or

(2) The amplifier can be easily modified to operate on frequencies between 26 MHz and 28 MHz

Good night, gentlemen.

Brian - K6BRN



« Last Edit: September 12, 2022, 09:06:39 PM by K6BRN »
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VE7RF

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Re: Here's how to build a real deal 6M tube amp.
« Reply #52 on: September 12, 2022, 09:13:06 PM »

Semantics at best.    Heck, even I don't know who the end user is.    Why would I ?   I designed the RF deck....that's it.
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W9FIB

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Re: Here's how to build a real deal 6M tube amp.
« Reply #53 on: September 13, 2022, 03:11:14 AM »

Semantics at best.    Heck, even I don't know who the end user is.    Why would I ?   I designed the RF deck....that's it.

So, you're selling it for a bag of cash out of the back of your car in some dimly lit public garage and only known as Deep Throat? Guess I am in the wrong part of the electronics business. I have to have names, sales tax status, and traceability for my designs.

As far as appliance operators, I don't have the time, equipment, or facilities to design and build the equivalent of an FT-991A. So, I and everyone else should just shut up because we can't do that? I don't think so. And the other question is why I have to build something at twice the price, when you include retail parts pricing and your labor, because the thing I buy is commercially made with a warranty, and customer service if I have a problem? Again, I don't think so.

If you enjoy building, that's great. Have at it. But if for the 2 major reasons I listed, why should we be denied the enjoyment of the hobby?
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73, Stan
Travelling the world one signal at a time.

W9IQ

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Re: Here's how to build a real deal 6M tube amp.
« Reply #54 on: September 13, 2022, 05:07:10 AM »

Brian,

You need to be a more discriminating reader.

I consistently said that if any of the 97.315 paragraph B exclusions apply then the amplifier does not need to be certified. That is still true and not at all wrong.

- Glenn W9IQ
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- Glenn W9IQ

God runs electromagnetics on Monday, Wednesday and Friday by the wave theory and the devil runs it on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday by the Quantum theory.

VE7RF

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Re: Here's how to build a real deal 6M tube amp.
« Reply #55 on: September 13, 2022, 06:40:58 AM »

Semantics at best.    Heck, even I don't know who the end user is.    Why would I ?   I designed the RF deck....that's it.

So, you're selling it for a bag of cash out of the back of your car in some dimly lit public garage and only known as Deep Throat? Guess I am in the wrong part of the electronics business. I have to have names, sales tax status, and traceability for my designs.

As far as appliance operators, I don't have the time, equipment, or facilities to design and build the equivalent of an FT-991A. So, I and everyone else should just shut up because we can't do that? I don't think so. And the other question is why I have to build something at twice the price, when you include retail parts pricing and your labor, because the thing I buy is commercially made with a warranty, and customer service if I have a problem? Again, I don't think so.

If you enjoy building, that's great. Have at it. But if for the 2 major reasons I listed, why should we be denied the enjoyment of the hobby?

I guess you either can't read, or misunderstood me, or can't comprehend a  couple of simple U tube video's...or basic...'one off custom builds' .    I'm  NOT  building it,  NOR selling it.   I designed the RF deck, that's it.  The builder is building both the RF deck in box #1......and the mating B+ supply / adjustable fil supply / blower+ interlocks / aux-misc items...in box #2.

You WON'T find the design in any  ARRL handbook, NOR any engineering book either.  It does not exist anywhere.  Custom, one off RF amplifiers have to be engineered, and designed from scratch.   Both the builder's and the end users know that, and what's involved in shipping them, installing them, maintaining them, and trbl shooting them.  I enjoy designing them, simply because it's NOT in any book.  It's a challenge to my skill sets.   10 kw  CCS on 6M..that's a new one for me..(well I did do a 2 x GS35B  6M amp > 10 years ago, that would just peg a 5 kw slug).  I'm already onto the next project, some fellow overseas wants a monoband 7 mhz amp, that makes the 6M amp look like a sick puppy.  Then I get folks who e-mail me, who want QSK capability at 30 kw..(done, and works real smoothly).  Then more oversea folks, who want a CM choke for 20m, that will handle 30 kw....and they want it like in 2 days flat, 3 at the most...(done. I managed to nail it on the 1st go).

And no,  I have never taken any remuneration for any of it.  At home, I have 3 x workbenches, 2 x drill press's, dual grinder, disc grinder, vert/horz bandsaw for metal, 10 ton hydraulic punch kit, more greenlee punch's,  roper whitney hand and 5 ton bench punches, vice, typ shop tools, air compressor, and a bunch of the usual test gear.  For the larger stuff, I get it cut locally, since they can shear large sheets of 1/8" aluminum to my specs.  I have to fabricate my own chassis's, since I can't buy any for the size I want.   After the design..and layout, the rest is one helluva lot of metal work. Typ it's 80% metalwork, and 20% wiring.   And all of that is just for my own projects.

A lot of what I do is testing new concepts, new design techniques, equipment modifications etc.   I wouldn't build a xcvr from scratch either.... but I typ end up modifying the daylights out of them.  I don't repair amplifiers nor xcvrs anymore for other folks.  With the advent of FT-8, folks don't listen, and proceed to blow up their amps.  Fix em, then get a repeat process.   I'm done with that aspect of it. 
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K6BRN

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Re: Here's how to build a real deal 6M tube amp.
« Reply #56 on: September 13, 2022, 08:02:56 AM »

Brian,  You need to be a more discriminating reader.  I consistently said that if any of the 97.315 paragraph B exclusions apply then the amplifier does not need to be certified. That is still true and not at all wrong.  - Glenn W9IQ

Heh!  Glenn - you're deflecting, again (see below).  You clearly implied it did not, which is part of the communications.  Context always counts.  Which is why this entire reaction happened to the OPs title and initial post in the first place. So - this is either two errors, as I've pointed out in previous discussions, because you did not recognize and correct it, or deliberate and slight misdirection as a demonstration of cleverness, which brilliance generally does not need to do.  It really comes off as being a little TOO literal. This is not a criticism, merely an observation.  I DO respect you and your abilities.  But we all have our foibles.

Quote
Likewise, since it is being sold or done as a work for hire you will need FCC Certification prior to sale... the reason the Mercury III amp was a kit for so long was the need for FCC Certification prior to a ready to go product being offered.

Grover,

Actually it doesn't as long as any of the exemptions of 97.315(b) apply. Particularly note exemption (3):

(1) The amplifier is constructed or modified by an amateur radio operator for use at an amateur station.

(2) The amplifier was manufactured before April 28, 1978, and has been issued a marketing waiver by the FCC, or the amplifier was purchased before April 28, 1978, by an amateur radio operator for use at that operator's station.

(3) The amplifier is sold to an amateur radio operator or to a dealer, the amplifier is purchased in used condition by a dealer, or the amplifier is sold to an amateur radio operator for use at that operator's station.

- Glenn W9IQ

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KD6VXI

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Re: Here's how to build a real deal 6M tube amp.
« Reply #57 on: September 13, 2022, 08:44:31 AM »

Semantics at best.    Heck, even I don't know who the end user is.    Why would I ?   I designed the RF deck....that's it.

So, you're selling it for a bag of cash out of the back of your car in some dimly lit public garage and only known as Deep Throat? Guess I am in the wrong part of the electronics business. I have to have names, sales tax status, and traceability for my designs.

As far as appliance operators, I don't have the time, equipment, or facilities to design and build the equivalent of an FT-991A. So, I and everyone else should just shut up because we can't do that? I don't think so. And the other question is why I have to build something at twice the price, when you include retail parts pricing and your labor, because the thing I buy is commercially made with a warranty, and customer service if I have a problem? Again, I don't think so.

If you enjoy building, that's great. Have at it. But if for the 2 major reasons I listed, why should we be denied the enjoyment of the hobby?

No.  As has been said a few times.  He designed it.  Someone else is building it.

Either reading comprehension is REALLY lacking on this website or people don't read an entire thread before replying.

Either way, many things in this thread where stated that are just utterly untrue.  And if the thread would have been read, comprehended, and then replied to, then people wouldn't have had to spend time continually restating the same thing over and over.

eHam isn't the only place this happens, but it is the most prevalent of any amateur related site I read.

--Shane
WP2ASS / ex KD6VXI
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KD6VXI

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Re: Here's how to build a real deal 6M tube amp.
« Reply #58 on: September 13, 2022, 08:45:55 AM »

Likewise, since it is being sold or done as a work for hire you will need FCC Certification prior to sale... the reason the Mercury III amp was a kit for so long was the need for FCC Certification prior to a ready to go product being offered.

Grover,

Actually it doesn't as long as any of the exemptions of 97.315(b) apply. Particularly note exemption (3):

(1) The amplifier is constructed or modified by an amateur radio operator for use at an amateur station.

(2) The amplifier was manufactured before April 28, 1978, and has been issued a marketing waiver by the FCC, or the amplifier was purchased before April 28, 1978, by an amateur radio operator for use at that operator's station.

(3) The amplifier is sold to an amateur radio operator or to a dealer, the amplifier is purchased in used condition by a dealer, or the amplifier is sold to an amateur radio operator for use at that operator's station.

- Glenn W9IQ

Glenn,

Transmitters cannot be offered for sale without FCC certification.  Amplifiers made by a ham for use by another ham is a grey area I would not like to get into. Also, there is NO evidence that this amp is being built for a ham... and plenty to suggest that it is for a pirate application. There are precious few antennas out there that can handle 10kW that are not commercial TV and, with that sort of power and a directional antenna (10 dBi ) you need about 300' of distance between any people and the antenna....

Lots of pirate activity on 6 meters?????


--Shane
WP2ASS / ex KD6VXI
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W9IQ

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Re: Here's how to build a real deal 6M tube amp.
« Reply #59 on: September 13, 2022, 09:10:37 AM »

You clearly implied it did not, which is part of the communications. 

Ridiculous - I implied no such thing. Apparently you inferred it.

My writing it quite precise. Notice the "as long as" conditional phrase? I didn't say "it doesn't need it because". Quite a difference! As I said, you should become a more discriminating reader. I typically won't be writing verbose, third grade reading level paragraphs to appeal to a lazy reader.

Quote
Actually it doesn't as long as any of the exemptions of 97.315(b) apply.

- Glenn W9IQ
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- Glenn W9IQ

God runs electromagnetics on Monday, Wednesday and Friday by the wave theory and the devil runs it on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday by the Quantum theory.
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