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Author Topic: Transceivers with overshoot  (Read 1100 times)

VK2ICJ

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Transceivers with overshoot
« on: September 12, 2022, 04:42:27 PM »

Hello all,

I recently purchased an Icom IC2kl amplifier. The manual is pretty insistent on ALC usage.  My K3 is an older model and does not have ALC.  I looked at the mod which requires scraping the motherboard on the K3 to cut connections and I'm not keen on that idea.  I have and Icom IC 7300 which I have been using for VKFF and POTA operations which appears to have all the correct connections for this little Amp.  After some investigation online it appears that the 7300 has an "overshoot" problem at the beginning of a transmission which would be detrimental to the IC2KL.   From what I am seeing it appears this is a common Icom problem.  That is a shame.  Icom doesn't seem to want you to use an Amp (even their own)  Ok well that is 2 of my radios that I cannot use with this Amp.  I have my backup Kenwood TS 870s which from what I'm reading should work once a cable is sourced that will interface the plug on the 870 to an ARB 704.   I am looking for confirmation that I am making the correct assumptions here with my conclusions.    For reference I only operate in CW.   

73
Chris vk2icj
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K1VSK

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Re: Transceivers with overshoot
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2022, 04:47:30 PM »

I have a K3S, not the K3, however, I believe both allow altering the delay time sufficient to accommodate your amp.
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HAMHOCK75

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Re: Transceivers with overshoot
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2022, 04:54:12 PM »

I have a IC-2KL which was used with a IC-7300 which I have since sold for a 705.

The 7300 was tested for overshoot  starting at this link,

https://www.eham.net/community/smf/index.php/topic,133714.msg1242174.html#msg1242174

I never saw anything to be concerned about. I have used the 7300 with the 2KL with and without ALC. The 705 is used without ALC since it only has 10 watts output but can still drive the 2KL to about 1/2 power. If I want full power, I still have an IC-7100 which can drive the 2KL to full output with or without ALC.

With ALC you lose about 50 watts output. I suspect it is because the ALC loop may be between critically damped and slightly underdamped so it needs some head space to swing above and below the final output power.

« Last Edit: September 12, 2022, 05:04:27 PM by HAMHOCK75 »
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KT4WO

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Re: Transceivers with overshoot
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2022, 05:24:03 PM »

I think HF radio "overshoot" is blamed even though
it's really poor solid state amp design many times.

I think HAMHOCK75 has shown the 7300 is not a issue.

A few years back I checked a Icom radio that "has" this issue.
It didn't even get close to the overshoot that was claimed, not even close.
YMMV

KT4WO
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VK2ICJ

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Re: Transceivers with overshoot
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2022, 06:12:03 PM »

Thank you for replies especially Hamshock75.  That is a very detailed thread.  Most I have to admit is beyond my understandings of these things.  I did see that when Hamshock75 was using the 7300 he had a 40 dB attenuator between the rig and the amp.  Is that advisable for regular use?

Is overshoot addressed with delay?  Ideally I would like to use the K3 as that is my main rig, however when I looked at Elecraft's solution for an older K3 by scratching out traces on the MB I thought I might dedicate the 7300 to amp duty as I've become fond of this little radio.

I really appreciate the feedback
73 Chris vk2icj
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WA2EIO

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Re: Transceivers with overshoot
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2022, 07:50:43 PM »

To add to the confusion, the 7300 is also reported to have an "RF Tail."   Oversimplifying, it continues to produce output even after the "key" line is opened at the end of a transmission for a very short time.   This MAY adversely affect the relays in an amp, especially when using CW, since they may be being hot switched.   The Groups.io site for the 7300 has a very long thread on this possible problem.
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AC2RY

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Re: Transceivers with overshoot
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2022, 08:39:12 PM »

To add to the confusion, the 7300 is also reported to have an "RF Tail."   Oversimplifying, it continues to produce output even after the "key" line is opened at the end of a transmission for a very short time.   This MAY adversely affect the relays in an amp, especially when using CW, since they may be being hot switched.   The Groups.io site for the 7300 has a very long thread on this possible problem.

Tail should not be an issue if amplifier has proper sequence of transition from transmit to bypass/receive. First bias should be removed from power transistors, closing them down, then switch antenna to bypass line, finally switch input to bypass line. Or delay switching altogether until input RF will drop below threshold. That way there will be no hot switching anywhere. It is hard to understand by people stuck in 1950s vintage simple tube circuits. With timings involved designer does not even need to use FPGA - modern microcontrollers have enough speed to handle all that in software.
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W1VT

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Re: Transceivers with overshoot
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2022, 03:48:35 AM »

When I went to school we studied steady state biasing and small signal analysis.
We never had to figure out large signal analysis when the bias was turned on and off.
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K1KIM

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Re: Transceivers with overshoot
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2022, 06:16:34 AM »

This has been an ongoing discussion of some conflict for quite some time.
My Acom 1010 has a built in 20ms delay I believe, and the Icom-7300 can set delay as well. though these are different functional purposes.

There has also been discussion of this being more of a problem with using SS amplifiers.

Some folks have adapted the practice of keeping the mic keyed for a second after they transmit in SSB mode. I have no data to back this practice up.
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K1VSK

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Re: Transceivers with overshoot
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2022, 06:34:39 AM »



Some folks have adapted the practice of keeping the mic keyed for a second after they transmit in SSB mode. I have no data to back this practice up.

 “For reference I only operate in CW”
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VE7RF

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Re: Transceivers with overshoot
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2022, 07:07:20 AM »

I have a K3S, not the K3, however, I believe both allow altering the delay time sufficient to accommodate your amp.

Altering the delay time in the xcvr won't do anything to handle overshoots.  All the adjustable delay timing does is, it allows the TR relay setup in the amp to get a head start, that's it.
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VE7RF

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Re: Transceivers with overshoot
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2022, 07:51:06 AM »

To add to the confusion, the 7300 is also reported to have an "RF Tail."   Oversimplifying, it continues to produce output even after the "key" line is opened at the end of a transmission for a very short time.   This MAY adversely affect the relays in an amp, especially when using CW, since they may be being hot switched.   The Groups.io site for the 7300 has a very long thread on this possible problem.

Tail should not be an issue if amplifier has proper sequence of transition from transmit to bypass/receive. First bias should be removed from power transistors, closing them down, then switch antenna to bypass line, finally switch input to bypass line. Or delay switching altogether until input RF will drop below threshold. That way there will be no hot switching anywhere. It is hard to understand by people stuck in 1950s vintage simple tube circuits. With timings involved designer does not even need to use FPGA - modern microcontrollers have enough speed to handle all that in software.

Dunno about SS amps, but the correct sequence when going from  TX...back to RX on a TUBE amp is..(A)  activate cut off bias. (B) RLS  input relay.   (C) RLS  output relay.     When  going from RX  to TX, the sequence is reversed, with  C-B-A ( output /input / bias relays operated).

In actual operation the above preferred sequencing is a  moot point.  The 3 x relays can be operated in any sequence.   I use the TX inhibit in the yaesu...and GRND the TX inhibit lead..... dead last.   Zero RF coming out of the xcvr.... until AFTER the 3 x relays in the amp have already engaged fully..... including any contact bounce.

To pull this off, a short delay (2-20 msecs, depending on TR relay setup in amp)  is used  to GRND the TX inhibit lead, when going from RX to TX.    When going from TX...back to RX,  you want as close to a zero msec delay as possible.  That kills the RF  from the xcvr  asap.   You also want  close  to a  zero delay on the TX inhibit lead, if using vac relays / mech relays, so when using VOX  SSB, and TR relays in amp have 1/2 dropped off... (in mid air)..and VOX re-activated, the TX inhibit lead needs to be opened off, asap.  With vac / mech relays in amp in mid air, their operate time is much less.   Bottom line is... the last thing you want is bias activated,  drive applied..and no ant connected.   A kw into a wide open is bad news. On a tube amp, you will arc the load cap.

To solve the 'tail' issue, is an easy fix.  On Alpha amplifiers, if the key line is pulled, while you are running say a 1.5 kw  cxr, the relay's /  Pin diodes in the  Alpha will not release.   They won't release if RF is still detected on the input of the amplifier.

If you look at  W7RY's QSK mod for various tube amplifiers, he too, offers that  'RF detect' feature.   It amounts to just 4 x components  on his input TR relay board.... worth a grand total of  75 cents.  If RF present, including a tail, the RF detector applies the rectified vdc to the main QSK board, and keeps the relays in the amp operated. (Input, bias, output).   It's a dead simple solution, that's easily implemented.

Some older Icom xcvrs had real BAD overshoot, like the 706, and 775, and several other's.  The 'fix' for those xcvr's was just a simple 9 vdc battery across a 500k to 1 megohm pot. - 1 to -9 vdc comes off the wiper..and applied to the ALC input on the xcvr.   The alc voltage has already been derived externally, and is always sitting there. No overshoot.  Dial up 86 watts, and all you get is 86 watts.

That doesn't help the OP, with his  older K3..and no ALC input on the K3.  The best compromise would be to use a small 2-3db pad on the output of the xcvr.   Or increase the input padding inside the IC2KL  by  2-3db. 
« Last Edit: September 13, 2022, 07:57:18 AM by VE7RF »
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AC2RY

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Re: Transceivers with overshoot
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2022, 11:17:36 AM »


 “For reference I only operate in CW”

You are the sort of fringe case. Majority now never operate CW.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2022, 11:28:49 AM by AC2RY »
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AC2RY

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Re: Transceivers with overshoot
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2022, 11:24:59 AM »


Some older Icom xcvrs had real BAD overshoot, like the 706, and 775, and several other's.  The 'fix' for those xcvr's was just a simple 9 vdc battery across a 500k to 1 megohm pot. - 1 to -9 vdc comes off the wiper..and applied to the ALC input on the xcvr.   The alc voltage has already been derived externally, and is always sitting there. No overshoot.  Dial up 86 watts, and all you get is 86 watts.


Pure analog transceivers are much more prone to it. But there were no like them on the market for over decade now. I used to have IC-756Pro2 (IF DSP) and now use IC-7610 (SDR) and neither had overshoot causing protection fault in my ACOM solid state amp. Only under some conditions I noticed initial spike of 5-10% above set output power. That should not be able to cause any harm to amplifier. If it still bothers you, you can trim output power down 10% to completely avoid saturation in power amp.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2022, 11:33:03 AM by AC2RY »
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KD6VXI

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Re: Transceivers with overshoot
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2022, 12:02:15 PM »

A lot of the older analog rigs you could feed a 9 volt signal on a pot to the ALC (positive ground connection) and you could eliminate the spike,  This caused the ALC to constantly be set, whereas in normal operation you have to actually generate the ALC voltage, usually with the first syllable or dit.

I don't think this helped the digital rigs.

A side benefit was that you could also operate AM without the terrible ALC action pulling power during voice peaks.  It wasn't hard to get 120 percent or so out of a ricebox that way, sounding good as well.

--Shane
WP2ASS / ex KD6VXI
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