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Author Topic: 10 kw CCS on 6M..using the 3CX-6000A7...Part 5.  (Read 685 times)

KD6VXI

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Re: 10 kw CCS on 6M..using the 3CX-6000A7...Part 5.
« Reply #15 on: September 26, 2022, 01:29:10 PM »

Peter Dahl transformers are now made by Hammond, and the 7.5V@85A for YU-148/3CX6000A7, partnum PWDF13050 weighs 21# . I guess they count on voltage drop in the choke.

73, Ed

You want a higher than normal voltage to start with.  That way you can dial it in with a variac.

Otherwise if the xformer is 7.0 and your line voltage is low or sags under TX, you have to overvolt the fils xformer to stay within spec.


--Shane
WP2ASS / ex KD6VXI
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W9IQ

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Re: 10 kw CCS on 6M..using the 3CX-6000A7...Part 5.
« Reply #16 on: September 26, 2022, 03:22:45 PM »

The completed choke measures 8.9 uh. 8.9 uh =  2803 ohms of XL  @  50.125 mhz.   

Did you take your 8.9 uH measurement at 50 MHz?

I ask because you initially said that the impedance magnitude at 50 MHz was 125 ohms. Now you are saying that the inductive reactance is 2803 ohms. If the first number is for a single bead, then the second number would be for more than 30 beads. Something doesn't jive.

- Glenn W9IQ
« Last Edit: September 26, 2022, 03:29:27 PM by W9IQ »
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- Glenn W9IQ

God runs electromagnetics on Monday, Wednesday and Friday by the wave theory and the devil runs it on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday by the Quantum theory.

W9IQ

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Re: 10 kw CCS on 6M..using the 3CX-6000A7...Part 5.
« Reply #17 on: September 26, 2022, 04:08:04 PM »

The completed choke measures 8.9 uh. 8.9 uh =  2803 ohms of XL  @  50.125 mhz.   

Did you take your 8.9 uH measurement at 50 MHz?

I ask because you initially said that the impedance magnitude at 50 MHz was 125 ohms. Now you are saying that the inductive reactance is 2803 ohms. If the first number is for a single bead, then the second number would be for more than 30 beads. Something doesn't jive.

- Glenn W9IQ

If your 125 ohms impedance magnitude at 50 MHz is accurate for a single bead of type 43 material, then the complex impedance will be about 116+j46 for a single bead. You can see will have much more resistance than reactance at that frequency.

Five beads will then provide about 230 ohms of reactance for an equivalent inductance of ~0.73 uH at 50 MHz.

- Glenn W9IQ

« Last Edit: September 26, 2022, 04:10:46 PM by W9IQ »
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- Glenn W9IQ

God runs electromagnetics on Monday, Wednesday and Friday by the wave theory and the devil runs it on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday by the Quantum theory.

VE7RF

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Re: 10 kw CCS on 6M..using the 3CX-6000A7...Part 5.
« Reply #18 on: September 26, 2022, 09:33:58 PM »

The completed choke measures 8.9 uh. 8.9 uh =  2803 ohms of XL  @  50.125 mhz.   

Did you take your 8.9 uH measurement at 50 MHz?

I ask because you initially said that the impedance magnitude at 50 MHz was 125 ohms. Now you are saying that the inductive reactance is 2803 ohms. If the first number is for a single bead, then the second number would be for more than 30 beads. Something doesn't jive.

- Glenn W9IQ

If your 125 ohms impedance magnitude at 50 MHz is accurate for a single bead of type 43 material, then the complex impedance will be about 116+j46 for a single bead. You can see will have much more resistance than reactance at that frequency.

Five beads will then provide about 230 ohms of reactance for an equivalent inductance of ~0.73 uH at 50 MHz.

- Glenn W9IQ

You are correct of course. Measurement taken at just 1 khz.    But the 125 ohm Z @ 50 ohms is accurate.  Their graph depicts aprx 60 ohms of XL  per bead @ 50 mhz.... or 300 ohms for 5 of em.
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VE7RF

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Re: 10 kw CCS on 6M..using the 3CX-6000A7...Part 5.
« Reply #19 on: September 26, 2022, 09:43:51 PM »

Peter Dahl transformers are now made by Hammond, and the 7.5V@85A for YU-148/3CX6000A7, partnum PWDF13050 weighs 21# . I guess they count on voltage drop in the choke.

73, Ed

I would take this with a grain of salt...as it maybe a misprint.   Typ in the past both PWD..and also Hammond, spec'ed their fil xfmrs UNDER LOAD...and did not factor in any V drop in the fil choke.   5 V @ 30 amp fil xfmrs measured  5.5 Vac with no load at all on them..and exactly 5.0 vac  with a 30 amp load.   And slightly less than 5.0 vac.... if any V drops across the fil choke.

Typ V drop on a 5 V @  30 amp fil choke is miniscule...if using 10 ga magnet wire.   But hammond spec'd the input side at 115 vac..and not 120 vac.  Ameritron only uses 12 ga magnet wire on their 30 amp fil chokes.

On this 6M project, the xfmr is being spec'ed for 7.1 vac...under load.  The final tweak will be with the variac. 
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VE7RF

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Re: 10 kw CCS on 6M..using the 3CX-6000A7...Part 5.
« Reply #20 on: September 26, 2022, 10:16:11 PM »

The 3 x 15,000 deck (4CX15000J) has all three fils xformers in the rf deck.


--Shane
WP2ASS / ex KD6VXI

3 of those huge 160 amp fil xfmrs on any RF deck would weigh a stupid amount.  You got any pix of that setup ?  I would have put all 3 of em on the next shelf down..where they belong...along with the mating 3 x variacs.  With 3 x separate fil xfmrs, (each with a CT of course), and 3 x separate variacs, then the individual cathode voltages can be tweaked independently.  Also, each tube can then have individual, adjustable bias....and also individual plate + grid current metering.   That's the correct way of doing it.  Otherwise, you have no clue what the heck is going on..and won't have any way of optimizing anything. 

Another big issue is that my line V  will vary  from day to day.  It will also vary under load.  On that 3X6 amp,  The 240 vac would drop to 232 vac when sucking 100 amps. 6 vac was between the pole xfmr..and the main 200 amp panel.  The remaining 2 vac drop was between the 200 amp panel and the  B+ supply...a mere 20' away.  2 ga was used between 200 amp panel and B+ supply.  If 2-0 was used, it would still be a 1 V drop....for a total of 7 V drop.

So under load, the fil V is too low on TX.   Tweak for correct V on TX...and then it's  too high on RX.   The only fix for this dilemma is to use a Sola constant V xfmr.  And they typ only come in 250-500-1000-2000  Va ratings.   The 1000 va unit weighs 66 lbs.    Since the V from the street will vary on a daily basis, the sola is the only fix.

Sola's typ have  120-208-240-360-470  input taps (all single phase)....and a 240 / 120 vac  regulated output. They are also harmonically neutralized, and will take  'dirty power' from the street..and turn it into ..'clean power'. 

We feed a separate 240 vac line from main panel..to the input of the sola..... then the regulated output of the sola is then fed to the input of the 0-270 vac @ 5 amp, small variac.  Output of variac is then fed to the input of the fil xfmr.

Ok, at that point, V from street  can vary all it wants..and the cathode V remains constant.  Cathode V remains constant between  RX..and TX.   I see no other possible fix.    One fellow used 2 x variacs...and toggled between them (vac relays tied into the TR setup) between  RX  + TX.  That works...provided the V from the street, does not fluctuate on a day to day basis.

Fil V is critical to making these big tubes last. Typ they are run at rated Cathode V  for 200 hrs.  On any new or rebuilt tube, the emission increases steadily for the 1st 200 hrs, then levels off.   At that point, the fil V can be reduced a bunch...like 10%.   That's provided you don't operate the tube at more than 80% of it's anode current rating to begin with.
 
« Last Edit: September 26, 2022, 10:32:48 PM by VE7RF »
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KD6VXI

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Re: 10 kw CCS on 6M..using the 3CX-6000A7...Part 5.
« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2022, 04:30:07 AM »

Pictures are awaiting approval from the owner.

Having all 3 transformers on the rf deck meant small fils chokes.  The fils xformers where custom Cal Coil transformers with both 6.3 and 7.5vac taps at 160A.  That way either A or J tubes can be run.  The J tubes are preferred as they have more emissions.

Most of those CB style amps have the filament xformer in the rf deck for one simple reason.  Portability.  Unplug the key line, the input and output RF connectors and the connection to the inverter and you have an RF deck that can come in the house. 

And who cares about the weight.  Build a chassis that can hold the weight.  It's not like everyone is moving their RF deck around constantly.  They usually get built, shipped and installed.  Then the only thing you ever do is lift the top cover off to change tubes.  Any RF decks this size don't fit in a rack.  There is no multiple shelves.  Remember, you're talking about something that is legal limit AM radio station sized output with a power supply you can sit in.  Hell, the drive amp is a 20,000A7 loafing.

Anyway, time to get to work.

--Shane
WP2ASS / ex KD6VXI
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W9IQ

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Re: 10 kw CCS on 6M..using the 3CX-6000A7...Part 5.
« Reply #22 on: September 27, 2022, 04:44:00 AM »

The completed choke measures 8.9 uh. 8.9 uh =  2803 ohms of XL  @  50.125 mhz.   

Did you take your 8.9 uH measurement at 50 MHz?

I ask because you initially said that the impedance magnitude at 50 MHz was 125 ohms. Now you are saying that the inductive reactance is 2803 ohms. If the first number is for a single bead, then the second number would be for more than 30 beads. Something doesn't jive.

- Glenn W9IQ

If your 125 ohms impedance magnitude at 50 MHz is accurate for a single bead of type 43 material, then the complex impedance will be about 116+j46 for a single bead. You can see will have much more resistance than reactance at that frequency.

Five beads will then provide about 230 ohms of reactance for an equivalent inductance of ~0.73 uH at 50 MHz.

- Glenn W9IQ

You are correct of course. Measurement taken at just 1 khz.    But the 125 ohm Z @ 50 ohms is accurate.  Their graph depicts aprx 60 ohms of XL  per bead @ 50 mhz.... or 300 ohms for 5 of em.

One last thought on this topic. The bead structures from Fair-Rite are not tightly controlled as they are intended for general suppression. You can experience a ±25% XL variation. If your specific XL requirement is tight, you may need to plan an extra bead as insurance.

- Glenn W9IQ
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- Glenn W9IQ

God runs electromagnetics on Monday, Wednesday and Friday by the wave theory and the devil runs it on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday by the Quantum theory.

KD6VXI

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Re: 10 kw CCS on 6M..using the 3CX-6000A7...Part 5.
« Reply #23 on: September 27, 2022, 06:39:09 AM »

Was thinking about the SOLA, Jim.

You can also use a UPS.  They make excellent power conditioners.  And the extra in that is if the power does go out, you still have filament voltage and blowers running.  We have variations galore here. 

Then you can do a proper shutdown.

Might not be a big deal in your location, but where I live now, power going in and out is a real thing. 

Our power variation here is big.  We had a company come in and install a 50 kva xformer for our lab while we where on a shutdown.  When we have a low load we can't run our prime power generators because they have to have a specific minimum load or you get cylinder wash.  Cheaper to keep the lights on with utility power rather than run a megawatt of load banks.

Anyway, the utility voltage was tapped high enough that we had 208/120 in the lab while on utility power.  It was 190 volts on generators.  The UPS kept us at 208V constantly.  I've since retapped that xformer to where we have 208V on prime power, and when we go to utility it jumps to 220V.

190VAC is typical 3 phase power here.  120V phase to neutral and 190 volts phase to phase.  We have 13.2kv input directly from the utility.  Our generators are also 13.2kv.

--Shane
WP2ASS / ex KD6VXI
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VE7RF

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Re: 10 kw CCS on 6M..using the 3CX-6000A7...Part 5.
« Reply #24 on: September 27, 2022, 08:51:07 AM »

Was thinking about the SOLA, Jim.

You can also use a UPS.  They make excellent power conditioners.  And the extra in that is if the power does go out, you still have filament voltage and blowers running.  We have variations galore here. 

Then you can do a proper shutdown.

Might not be a big deal in your location, but where I live now, power going in and out is a real thing. 

Our power variation here is big.  We had a company come in and install a 50 kva xformer for our lab while we where on a shutdown.  When we have a low load we can't run our prime power generators because they have to have a specific minimum load or you get cylinder wash.  Cheaper to keep the lights on with utility power rather than run a megawatt of load banks.

Anyway, the utility voltage was tapped high enough that we had 208/120 in the lab while on utility power.  It was 190 volts on generators.  The UPS kept us at 208V constantly.  I've since retapped that xformer to where we have 208V on prime power, and when we go to utility it jumps to 220V.

190VAC is typical 3 phase power here.  120V phase to neutral and 190 volts phase to phase.  We have 13.2kv input directly from the utility.  Our generators are also 13.2kv.

--Shane
WP2ASS / ex KD6VXI

UPS requires batteries.  On our small  duetz air cooled gen sets  at some cell sites, etc, they require a min load.  Hence the use of a bank of contactor switched dummy loads.   Start turning on electric heat, other loads etc, and dummy load resistors start switching offline.

190 vac  phase to phase =  109.7 vac  phase to neutral.
220 vac  phase to  phase =  127 vac  phase to neutral.
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KD6VXI

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Re: 10 kw CCS on 6M..using the 3CX-6000A7...Part 5.
« Reply #25 on: September 27, 2022, 09:45:08 AM »

Yes, a UPS requires batteries.  As I said, a UPS would allow you to do a proper shutdown when you have a brown out or lose power completely. 

We have a 110/190v standard here.  But all my wall sockets at home are at 120v.  Interestingly, we will have a single 25kva pig feeding 6 or more houses.

I have two load banks.  A 750KW and a 500KW.  I have to run the 500Kw at a minimum when we are using just our C32 gennie.  It is not at full load, though.  The CG170 requires a 700kw load.

Our larger 2.5 MW generator I have to run both load banks.  As we bring more online (treatment plant or the distillery itself) we shed load.  It is all automated via PLC.  Well, supposed to be.  We lost the PLC in Fiona.  I need to go replace that.


--Shane
WP2ASS / ex KD6VXI
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AC2RY

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Re: 10 kw CCS on 6M..using the 3CX-6000A7...Part 5.
« Reply #26 on: September 27, 2022, 10:04:25 AM »


3 of those huge 160 amp fil xfmrs on any RF deck would weigh a stupid amount.  You got any pix of that setup ?  I would have put all 3 of em on the next shelf down..where they belong...along with the mating 3 x variacs.  With 3 x separate fil xfmrs, (each with a CT of course), and 3 x separate variacs, then the individual cathode voltages can be tweaked independently.  Also, each tube can then have individual, adjustable bias....and also individual plate + grid current metering.   That's the correct way of doing it.  Otherwise, you have no clue what the heck is going on..and won't have any way of optimizing anything. 


At these power levels SMPS is a way to go for filament supply. Will save a lot of weight and size and have current or voltage regulated and adjusted with possible remote computerized control. That was a way to do things 30 years ago and more so today.
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VE7RF

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Re: 10 kw CCS on 6M..using the 3CX-6000A7...Part 5.
« Reply #27 on: September 27, 2022, 01:21:06 PM »

The completed choke measures 8.9 uh. 8.9 uh =  2803 ohms of XL  @  50.125 mhz.   

Did you take your 8.9 uH measurement at 50 MHz?

I ask because you initially said that the impedance magnitude at 50 MHz was 125 ohms. Now you are saying that the inductive reactance is 2803 ohms. If the first number is for a single bead, then the second number would be for more than 30 beads. Something doesn't jive.

- Glenn W9IQ

If your 125 ohms impedance magnitude at 50 MHz is accurate for a single bead of type 43 material, then the complex impedance will be about 116+j46 for a single bead. You can see will have much more resistance than reactance at that frequency.

Five beads will then provide about 230 ohms of reactance for an equivalent inductance of ~0.73 uH at 50 MHz.

- Glenn W9IQ

You are correct of course. Measurement taken at just 1 khz.    But the 125 ohm Z @ 50 ohms is accurate.  Their graph depicts aprx 60 ohms of XL  per bead @ 50 mhz.... or 300 ohms for 5 of em.

One last thought on this topic. The bead structures from Fair-Rite are not tightly controlled as they are intended for general suppression. You can experience a ±25% XL variation. If your specific XL requirement is tight, you may need to plan an extra bead as insurance.

- Glenn W9IQ

Excellent point.  Typ  I heard  +/- 20% variation.   N3RR  bought 700 of those type 31 (2.4" OD) toroids....and the tolerance was all over the map, and his all came from the same lot number.

On this 6M amp, it will work.  The way the beads are configured, there was no way to get more than 5 of em on there.
If the supercon connectors were shifted more to the right, more cores could have been installed.  But that would also add more stray C  from beads to the chassis...+ a 90 deg bend in the corner.   As is, stray C is 50 pf...added to the 42 pf input C = 92 pf.....which has to be subtracted from the target value of 127 pf for the C2 tune cap. 

On any 160-10m amp,  8-15   cores would be optimum...if they will fit.   The increase in C would not be an issue...except for 10m, where  225 pf is the target value for C2.   I finally figured out a way to space the cores away from the chassis, and still keep them in place. That would reduce the stray C to a low value.  It's doable.

Paralleling  40 amp fil chokes  using 8 ga magnet wire, (bifilar wound on type 43,  8" x 1/2" rods) is more labour intensive. I initially wind them on 1/2" OD X 8" long alum tubes.  The type 43 rods are too brittle to wind on.  The trick here is to parallel any one winding from  rod 'A'   with any one winding from rod 'B'... and vice versa.  That ensures bifilar current flow.

The 30 amp chokes, wound with 10 ga wire, measured 38 uh (1 khz)  on each winding.  The 40 amp chokes, wound with 8 ga wire, measured 30 uh per winding.  Interesting enough, when top pair of wires  of  just one choke are shorted...and ditto with the bottom pair of wires,  it's still 38 uh.  The coefficient of coupling is 100%.  However, when the  pair of chokes are paralleled as described in above paragraph, the measured uh drops to 30 uh on the 30 amp chokes...(and  22 uh on the 40 amp chokes).

This is because the rods are spaced  a bit apart, like 1.5", inside to inside...and coefficient of coupling is far less.  I had used  just a single  pair of standoffs, and 4 x plastic cable clamps, to mount 2 x rods to one pair of standoffs.   The better method would be to use 4 x standoffs, and put zero space between the rods, the the coupling would increase...and uh would increase a bunch.

If the rods are spaced 1' apart, like on the wooden bench, and paralleled with 12" wires, then the inductance, does indeed, drop in half.....since the co-eff of coupling is then non existent. 

« Last Edit: September 27, 2022, 01:24:03 PM by VE7RF »
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VE7RF

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Re: 10 kw CCS on 6M..using the 3CX-6000A7...Part 5.
« Reply #28 on: September 27, 2022, 01:53:00 PM »


3 of those huge 160 amp fil xfmrs on any RF deck would weigh a stupid amount.  You got any pix of that setup ?  I would have put all 3 of em on the next shelf down..where they belong...along with the mating 3 x variacs.  With 3 x separate fil xfmrs, (each with a CT of course), and 3 x separate variacs, then the individual cathode voltages can be tweaked independently.  Also, each tube can then have individual, adjustable bias....and also individual plate + grid current metering.   That's the correct way of doing it.  Otherwise, you have no clue what the heck is going on..and won't have any way of optimizing anything. 


At these power levels SMPS is a way to go for filament supply. Will save a lot of weight and size and have current or voltage regulated and adjusted with possible remote computerized control. That was a way to do things 30 years ago and more so today.

A buddy does just that, on his grid driven 4x15 tube. The original 5 vdc @ 200 amp server SMPS  supply was modified a bit, and output was then 6.3 vac @ 160 amps. It's been running like that for 20 yrs now.  It handles the initial surge, due to the  cold resistance of the cathode being only 1/10 or 1/12 of the hot resistance.  Most SMPS supplies have some form of  'step start' built in.

Another buddy tried the same stunt, on a 2 x GS35B 6M amplifier, (GG triodes)...with a separate SMPS supply for each tube.  Even though the small SMPS supplies have... 'step start' built into them, they would not handle the initial heavy surge load current of the tubes..and quickly go into instant shut down mode.   Cold resistance of  the heater was too low.   The 'fix' was to use a slightly bigger rated SMPS supply.  There was also some trick I have forgotten, in doing the B- return / bias / cutoff bias / metering. Each tube had it's own, individual biasing and plate current meter's, and of course, individual heater vdc adjustments.    I think we used a DC to DC converter in there somewhere, as a work around.   

On GG  directly heated cathodes, since there is no CT, as used on a conventional fil xfmr, a DC return path has to be provided, which also handles the bias, cutoff bias, and metering.  I believe a separate small choke was used....and output of the single winding  fed to one side of the cathode.    Dunno if a 7 vdc @ 80 amp SMPS is readily available, or an existing 5 vdc server supply can be modified.  Ditto with a 7.5 vdc  @  50/100 amps..for 3x3  / 3x10 tubes.

On a similar note, local buddy wound his own 5 vac @ 30 amp fil xfmr (with CT) by modifying an existing xfmr, that had a 24 vac secondary.  He almost got it right, except the loaded voltage was a bit too high, like 5.4 vac (at the sockets).  Instead of removing an equal number of turns from each end of the secondary, he instead removed turns from one end only.  That worked, and his loaded voltage..at the socket was now 5.0 vac.

Problem was, when removing turns from one end only, the CT was no longer dead center in the sec... but slightly shifted off to one side.  (side that had turns removed).  That resulted in a bit of  60 hz hum over the air.  But since most xcvr's won't respond to freqs much below <300 hz.... it wasn't a total disaster.
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