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Author Topic: 10 kw CCS on 6M..using the 3CX-6000A7...Part 7.  (Read 544 times)

VE7RF

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10 kw CCS on 6M..using the 3CX-6000A7...Part 7.
« on: October 21, 2022, 01:19:36 PM »

10 kw CCS on 6M..using the 3CX-6000A7...Part 7.

Here, the bottom of the chassis is completed.

The red thing is the opto isolator.   To turn it on, a ground is applied from the xcvr.
The 2 x small RF chokes are wired right to the cathode.  They keep drive RF  from getting back into the rear apron test jacks, where the true-rms dvm probes are plugged in. Bypass caps installed everywhere.   Resistor in one leg of the chokes is in case the rear test jacks ever got shorted by accident....esp with a 80 amp fil xfmr.

Series diodes used for bias. Switch used to switch bias  between  SSB + FT-8 / CW.
   
Rear apron FAST  3agc grid fuse wired between negative  terminal of grid current meter..and chassis.  Suck too much grid current, and grid fuse opens up.  With no path for DC grid current, amp can't be driven.  PO drops to zero, and input swr rises to near infinity, and xcr / ipa shuts down asap, event over.

Paralleled safety diodes wired between B- and chassis.  This keep the B-   within +/- .7 vdc  of chassis potential at all times.  Resistor between CT  and chassis in RF deck....and also a 2nd resistor at the other end of the cable in the  HV supply, (where the fil xfmr is located)... is another safety device.  If the CT connection  is lost between the RF deck  and HV supply box, this ensures the CT still has a path between the 2 x box's.  With CT  open, the cathode voltage will soar to almost near B+ levels.  CT + grnd  and 240vac all go through the (white)  twist lock receptacle.

The 2 x high powered RJ2B vac relays (with contacts in parallel)  will be located on top side of chassis, between vac load cap..and the 7-16 DIN output connector.

Scot spent hrs on this, it's tedious. He's built  a lot of amplifiers....and power supplies. Only difference here is this is the 1st time building a high powered 6M amplifier.  He's been sick all this week, and has > 1/2 dozen linear amps in for repair.

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yOEfumay84

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SWMAN

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Re: 10 kw CCS on 6M..using the 3CX-6000A7...Part 7.
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2022, 01:30:33 PM »

 I wish I could do that but I’m not a cheater.
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VE7RF

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Re: 10 kw CCS on 6M..using the 3CX-6000A7...Part 7.
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2022, 01:52:49 PM »

The opto isolator gets it's dcv for it's input side by rectifying the 7.0 vac  at the cold end of the fil choke. Run through a FWB, then some series diodes to dump some excess voltage, then a 100 ohm bleeder (1/4 watt diss) ensures there is 50 ma of bleeder current at all times..and ensures the diodes are always turned on, and frwd biased.  What's left if 5.0 vdc to run the opto isolator.  The opto is 5 vdc rated, and will handle anything from 2.5-8 vdc.   You can also get 15 vdc versions, that will handle anything from  9-16 vdc.  Last one in the ODC series is the 24 vdc version, which will run on anything from 18-32 vdc.   The output on this opto is rated at 200 vdc @ 1 amp CCS.   You can also get them with a 60 vdc @ 3 amp CCS output.  They all turn on in < 100 usecs..... and turn off in < 750usecs.   4 kv isolation between the input + output side.  No moving parts, stupid fast, and an industry standard.
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K6AER

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Re: 10 kw CCS on 6M..using the 3CX-6000A7...Part 7.
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2022, 09:23:35 PM »

I thought the maximum power allowed in Canada was 2250 watts PEP. what is the purpose of this article?
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VE7RF

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Re: 10 kw CCS on 6M..using the 3CX-6000A7...Part 7.
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2022, 10:13:05 PM »

I thought the maximum power allowed in Canada was 2250 watts PEP. what is the purpose of this article?

The general layout, and all of the wiring layout, and most of the concepts are applicable to any hb tube amp. This is just a step by step process, that folks wanted to see.  On the next video, the top side of the RF deck is wired, complete with metering, ceramic vac  tune and load caps for the L-PI network, paralleled output relays, etc.  That too, is applicable to any hb tube amp.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2022, 10:32:21 PM by VE7RF »
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VE7RF

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Re: 10 kw CCS on 6M..using the 3CX-6000A7...Part 7.
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2022, 12:26:09 AM »

The small 12-0-12 vac xfmr provides 24 vac, that is fed to the doubler....(CT not used). The resulting 68-70 vdc is used to speed up all 4 of the 26.5vdc vac relays. The 120 ohm @ 50 watt metal finned resistor is used as the series drop resistor. The 200 uf lytic in parallel with the resistor is used to further speed up the 4 x vac relays. It does this by extending the time the overvoltage is applied, by a split second. This is called a ....'RC hotshot circuit' and is described by Jennings, Kilovac, and also gigavac.

Be careful though, the resistor and 200 uf cap form a RC time constant.... = 24 msecs. (.0002 X 120 = .024 seconds, or 24 msecs). When amp is un-keyed, it takes 24 msecs for the 200 uf cap to fully discharge through the paralleled 120 ohm resistor. We want the cap fully discharged before the VOX / PTT is activated again. You don't want an RC constant much more than 30 msecs for VOX / PTT use.

For QSK CW, 24 msecs is way too long. 1-2 msecs is about the max you can use for QSK CW.
The way the over voltage works is..... when T=0, the relay coil is inductive, and impedes current. Most of the relay's operate time, (80%) is used just to develop enough magnetism in it's coil. The remaining 20% of the operate time is actually the time it takes the COM contact, to physically move from the NC contact...over to the NO contact. The initial overvoltage speeds up the magnetism buildup. Once full current flows, you then get a V drop across the series resistor. Just ohms law to size the resistor. 70 vdc over voltage - 26.5 vdc coil voltage = 43.5 vdc required drop across the resistor. 43.5 vdc / total loop current (sum of all 4 x relay coil currents) = drop resistor value. Total Loop current squared X resistor value = resistor dissipation.

With the lytic in parallel with the drop resistor, when T=0, ALL the current flows into charging up the lytic. IE: the discharged cap initially looks like a dead short.... which also shunts out the resistor. The ENTIRE overvoltage is applied to ALL the relay coils. Once the cap is charged up, current no longer flows into the cap, (caps block DC), and THEN the current flows through the resistor....resulting in the required V drop across the resistor.

On buddy's YC-156 amp, he used a 120 to 120 vac isolation xfmr, and ran the 120 vac from the secondary winding to a FWB, = 170 vdc. The 170 vdc overvoltage is wired through an even bigger value drop resistor, to speed up his paralleled Gigavac G2 relays on the output of the amp. (26.5 vdc coils in parallel). Contacts also in parallel...and done such that the RF current splits 50-50. He's a QSK CW operator, so the max value of cap in parallel with the drop resistor could only be .5 uf. The G2 (same as a RJ2B) is rated for 15 msecs operate and 9 msecs release. With the above RC hotshot setup, we managed 2.4 msecs operate and release..which is plenty good enough for QSK use.

Note, Jennings / kilovac/ gigavac's op/rls times are actually for the pickup voltage, not the rated operating voltage. Any Jennings's RJ1A, although rated for 8 msecs operate, is actually just 2-3 msecs with 26.5 vdc applied... which can be sped up with an overvoltage, resulting in 1 msec op/rls...including contact bounce.
When lower overvoltage's used, bigger value caps can be used, and vice versa. (Assuming the RC time constant is the same in both cases). IF you are voltage limited, the 12 vdc version of these vac relays can be used. IE: 18-30 vdc can easily be used to speed up a 12 vdc vac relay coil.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2022, 12:30:23 AM by VE7RF »
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W9IQ

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Re: 10 kw CCS on 6M..using the 3CX-6000A7...Part 7.
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2022, 05:53:50 AM »

One should not forget that the RC tau represents ~63.2 % charged and ~36.8% discharged. The word "fully" should not be used in close association until you in 5τ territory.

- Glenn W9IQ
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- Glenn W9IQ

God runs electromagnetics on Monday, Wednesday and Friday by the wave theory and the devil runs it on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday by the Quantum theory.

AA7IS

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Re: 10 kw CCS on 6M..using the 3CX-6000A7...Part 7.
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2022, 06:31:29 AM »

Baby gorillas beat their chests, imitating the big grown Gorillas.
Nothing new to be seen here, just a guy 'flexing' lol.
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WB8PFZ

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Re: 10 kw CCS on 6M..using the 3CX-6000A7...Part 7.
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2022, 09:02:20 AM »

This is turning out to be a small amplifier. Someone on QTH.com has a 6 meter amp with a 4CX10,000 tube for sale. Love the articles Jim. Mike
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VE7RF

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Re: 10 kw CCS on 6M..using the 3CX-6000A7...Part 7.
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2022, 10:27:28 AM »

This is turning out to be a small amplifier. Someone on QTH.com has a 6 meter amp with a 4CX10,000 tube for sale. Love the articles Jim. Mike

Hi Mike.  Yes, I know that particular 6M amp well. (I have all the complete schematics for it. It was built by ASI).  A few years ago, a few of us spent umpteen hrs, and a few months trying to figure out why it wouldn't resonate below 70 mhz. I assumed way too much. Short story was the original new Eimac 4x10 tube was swapped to a newly rebuilt Econco  Eimac 4x10.... right at the factory. ASI needed a new 4x10 for a FM broadcast PA, and removed the new Eimac 4x10 from the 6M amp.  Later on it was replaced by the Econco tube.  Shipped to end user...without re-testing.  The internal stray capacitances between various elements inside the Econco tube were a tiny bit different than the  oem Eimac tube.  The 2 x series  17 pf HT-57 caps  hanging off to one side, of the... one off plate circuit resulted in 8.5 pf..when in series..which was too low a value for the Econco tube.  One cap removed, and total C increased to 17 pf.  Bingo, then resonated on 6M, problem solved.

It's a cathode driven affair, complete with PI tuned input, and grids RF grnded with a mess of bypass caps..and bias applied to the grid.  Screen is bonded directly to the chassis.    B+ and screen supply, and bias supply are all wired in series.... sorta like a Collins 30S1..on steroids.  It's 800 lbs, comes in 2 x cabinets. Power supplies are at the bottom of cab #2. 6M RF deck is in cab #1. The mating 144 mhz RF deck was never built.... and was supposed to go in the top of cab #2..above the power supplies.  It truly is a thing to behold.
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WB8PFZ

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Re: 10 kw CCS on 6M..using the 3CX-6000A7...Part 7.
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2022, 10:52:14 AM »

Jim, i have been following Skip, VE6BGT's posts on Utube, truly an outstanding craftsman. Wonder if your paths have crossed? Would make a great neighbor :) Mike
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VE7RF

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Re: 10 kw CCS on 6M..using the 3CX-6000A7...Part 7.
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2022, 10:56:44 AM »

One should not forget that the RC tau represents ~63.2 % charged and ~36.8% discharged. The word "fully" should not be used in close association until you in 5τ territory.

- Glenn W9IQ

Excellent point....and I shoulda known better...since I just went through all of that, in extreme detail,  a few months ago..with my own L4B  modification project. (which uses 3 x vac relay's, but with  all 3 x 12 vdc coils (80 ohm coils) in series with a 175 drop resistor..and a 63 vdc over voltage. In that case, I used a 50 uf cap in parallel with the 175 ohm drop resistor, and RC = 8.75 msec. 

My biggest downfall is I  design stuff, sorta keep semi detailed records, work through all the maths, then have it embedded in my brain 100%.  Then promptly forget it all 6 months later...and end up having to  repeat the entire process from scratch...on a different project.  This time I clean forgot about using at least 2 x RC constants for discharge (down to 14% of applied vdc).... or 3 x RC constants (down to 5% of applied vdc).  4T = down to 2%.   5T = down to 1%. IMO, 2-3 T is ample..and 4-5T is overkill.

In this case, the end user is gonna use PTT, so it's not the end of the world...moot point. We can always swap to a smaller value cap in just a few mins.
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KM4AH

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Re: 10 kw CCS on 6M..using the 3CX-6000A7...Part 7.
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2022, 01:37:18 PM »

FWIW, Paul Hewitt WD7S, who designed the control board I used in my YC156A amp, tested the HC-1's and said there was nothing to be gained past 33 volts on a 26.5 coil, at least according to the oscilloscope. Just added bounce. Larger relays may be entirely different.
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AI5BC

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Re: 10 kw CCS on 6M..using the 3CX-6000A7...Part 7.
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2022, 01:58:46 PM »

I thought the maximum power allowed in Canada was 2250 watts PEP. what is the purpose of this article?
To demonstrate there are no rules.
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VE7RF

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Re: 10 kw CCS on 6M..using the 3CX-6000A7...Part 7.
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2022, 03:14:55 PM »

FWIW, Paul Hewitt WD7S, who designed the control board I used in my YC156A amp, tested the HC-1's and said there was nothing to be gained past 33 volts on a 26.5 coil, at least according to the oscilloscope. Just added bounce. Larger relays may be entirely different.

Point well taken. These are Jennings RJ1A's, which is the Jennings version of the Kilovac HC-1...and both have 335 ohm coils...and I believe both have identical or at least very similar timing characteristics.

The 2 x RJ1A's shown in the video, are used for the input.... and also the cutoff bias.  The 2 x  output relays (paralleled coils, and also paralleled contacts) are the much slower Jennings RJ2B's. (I forget the Kilovac equivalent)....and they need all the help they can get.... hence the aprx 66 vdc overvoltage.  To keep it dead simple, the thought was to just use the 66 vdc overvoltage...and just speed all 4 of em up...using just one drop resistor and one supply.  The amp will only be used on either PTT/ footswitch, or VOX SSB. Nobody uses CW on 6M anymore, so semi break in  (I call it VOX  CW) is more than adequate.  RF comes out of the xcvr.....dead last, tnx to the handy dandy  TX inhibit lead.  The TX inhibit lead is going to get delayed by 5-10 msecs anyway,  so the 4 x relays in the amp will get an ample head start. 
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