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Author Topic: SWR/watt meter when source impedance <>50ohm  (Read 283 times)

KD7RDZI2

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SWR/watt meter when source impedance <>50ohm
« on: November 03, 2022, 01:26:15 PM »

Hi, I have a doubt. Do usual SWR/watt meters measure accurate SWR and power output when the load is exactly 50 ohm and the impedance of the source (the impedance of an amplifier) from 50 ohm?
« Last Edit: November 03, 2022, 01:28:57 PM by KD7RDZI2 »
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KD7RDZI2

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Re: SWR/watt meter when source impedance <>50ohm
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2022, 01:54:36 PM »

Hi, I have a doubt. Do usual SWR/watt meters measure accurate SWR and power output when the load is exactly 50 ohm and the impedance of the source (the impedance of an amplifier) is far from 50 ohm?
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W9IQ

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Re: SWR/watt meter when source impedance <>50ohm
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2022, 02:16:24 PM »

Yes, a directional power meter/SWR meter will be reasonably accurate over its indicated range regardless of the load impedance. It doesn't directly measure the SWR - it samples the voltage and current and calculates the SWR based upon the presumption of a 50 ohm transmission line (for a 50 ohm instrument).

The impedance of the source (transmitter) has no effect on SWR but its output power may be reduced as a result of elevated SWR.

If you attempt to measure SWR or power on the wrong transmission line impedance, such as 72 ohm coax, then the readings will be significantly in error. In fact, if the 72 ohm coax has no standing wave (the SWR is 1), the 50  ohm meter will report an SWR of 1.44.

- Glenn W9IQ
« Last Edit: November 03, 2022, 02:25:29 PM by W9IQ »
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- Glenn W9IQ

God runs electromagnetics on Monday, Wednesday and Friday by the wave theory and the devil runs it on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday by the Quantum theory.

WB6BYU

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Re: SWR/watt meter when source impedance <>50ohm
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2022, 09:17:56 PM »

The output impedance of most radios won’t be
50 ohms, even if that is the impedance it is
designed to operate into.  So that happens all
the time.  It doesn’t make any difference.

SWR / power meters will still be accurate
in the impedance of coax for which they are
calibrated
.  If you put a 50 ohm meter in a
length of 75 ohm coax, it will indicate as if a very
short piece of 50 ohm coax was inserted at that
point.  The readings won’t be correct for the 75
ohm cable on either side of it.

G3RZP

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Re: SWR/watt meter when source impedance <>50ohm
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2022, 02:20:27 AM »

Also if you have  50 Ohm SWR meter and your length of 75 ohm coax between the meter and the nominal 50 ohm load  is an electrical half wavelength (or an even multiple thereof) you will see the right SWR, and could be misled.
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KD7RDZI2

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Re: SWR/watt meter when source impedance <>50ohm
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2022, 03:39:04 AM »

Thanks for the feedback. I reiterate somehow rewarding and adding questions :)
1) Assume a PA with an output impedance of only 5 ohm delivering 100 watts to a 50 ohm antenna through a 50 ohm coax. Will the SWR/Power meter indicate 100 watts?
2) Assume a PA with an output impedance of 500 ohm delivering 100 watts to a 50 ohm antenna through a 50 ohm coax. Will the SWR/Power meter indicate 100 watts?
3) In short, may I always trust a power meter when the feed line and the antenna are matched to 50 ohm notwithstanding the impedance of the PA output may be very different?
4) As long as the PA does not self oscillate, is it always a good idea to tune the output of a transistor PA (of unknown output impedance) to read the maximum power of the power meter set between the tuner and a 50 ohm fully matched transmission line and antenna?
5) Is it a good or bad idea to tune the input of a transistor PA (with unknown input impedance) in order to get more output (still well within the power limits of the PA, say getting 50 watts from a 100 watt amplifier,  but driving it with less power with a tuner between the TX and the input of the PA)?
« Last Edit: November 05, 2022, 03:43:31 AM by KD7RDZI2 »
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W9IQ

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Re: SWR/watt meter when source impedance <>50ohm
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2022, 05:07:12 AM »

Thanks for the feedback. I reiterate somehow rewarding and adding questions :)
1) Assume a PA with an output impedance of only 5 ohm delivering 100 watts to a 50 ohm antenna through a 50 ohm coax. Will the SWR/Power meter indicate 100 watts?

That is correct. However, if your SWR isn't 1, some meters will show Forward power which is the combination your output power and the reflected power. If that is the case, you would need to subtract the reflected power to get back to your 100 watts of output power.

2) Assume a PA with an output impedance of 500 ohm delivering 100 watts to a 50 ohm antenna through a 50 ohm coax. Will the SWR/Power meter indicate 100 watts?

Yes with the same caveat as #1.

3) In short, may I always trust a power meter when the feed line and the antenna are matched to 50 ohm notwithstanding the impedance of the PA output may be very different?

Yes, because the output impedance of the transmitter does not in any way affect the SWR. The proviso here is that your output power must be within the range in which the meter is accurate. Some meters do poorly when the output power is very low.

4) As long as the PA does not self oscillate, is it always a good idea to tune the output of a transistor PA (of unknown output impedance) to read the maximum power of the power meter set between the tuner and a 50 ohm fully matched transmission line and antenna?

Generally you adjust the tuner with reduced power. Once the tuner is adjusted, then raise the output power to the maximum if your goal is to measure its maximum output power under the condition. Keep in mind that this often needs to be a carrier measurement as most meters (even many so called peak reading meters) aren't very accurate for voice SSB.

5) Is it a good or bad idea to tune the input of a transistor PA (with unknown input impedance) in order to get more output (still well within the power limits of the PA, say getting 50 watts from a 100 watt amplifier,  but driving it with less power with a tuner between the TX and the input of the PA)?

You need to tune the output circuit of a tubed transmitter first in order to avoid damaging the tube. The best way to do this is tune it into a dummy load. Once you know where the settings are for a sub-band into the dummy load, you can write those down so that you can more quickly tune your output circuit in the future. Once you have the output circuit tuned, you can switch to the tuner, reduce power and then adjust the tuner or trigger the autotune procedure. Once the tuning is done, raise your output power as needed.

The adjustment of the output circuit of a tubed transmitter also ensures that the transmitter is not putting out harmonics. Failing to tune may cause the transmitter to output harmonic energy which can result in strange SWR and directional power readings. So besides tuning to protect the tube, tuning also ensures only the desired frequency is output from the transmitter.

- Glenn W9IQ
« Last Edit: November 05, 2022, 05:26:27 AM by W9IQ »
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- Glenn W9IQ

God runs electromagnetics on Monday, Wednesday and Friday by the wave theory and the devil runs it on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday by the Quantum theory.

G3RZP

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Re: SWR/watt meter when source impedance <>50ohm
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2022, 04:51:29 AM »

Quote
5) Is it a good or bad idea to tune the input of a transistor PA (with unknown input impedance) in order to get more output (still well within the power limits of the PA, say getting 50 watts from a 100 watt amplifier,  but driving it with less power with a tuner between the TX and the input of the PA)?

It depends. It is quite possible that with some load impedances the PA will go unstable with certain tuning of the input. If you are starting from scratch, you need a spectrum analyser to be sure that it's stable. Bear in mind that transistor PA feeding  a 50 ohm load cane be stable, but feeding a load that is not 50 ohms at some frequency can lead to instability and oscillation at some frequency unrelated to the input frequency.

If you have the S or y or z parameters,  you can calculate this from the usual stability equations.
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KD7RDZI2

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Re: SWR/watt meter when source impedance <>50ohm
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2022, 11:24:00 AM »

God and devils run electromagnetics, but you all clarified the rationale behind that. Thank you.
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