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Author Topic: Wire gauge? Grounding?  (Read 287 times)

K4JUL

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Wire gauge? Grounding?
« on: November 08, 2022, 08:41:56 AM »

CONNECTORS:  I'm finding conflicting info on the Internet ... What I have is a new FT-991A.  I need terminal connectors to connect the supplied power cable from the (also new) FP-1030A power supply.  There are no markings on the power cables, and not a single mention of the wire gauge in the manual either.  The manual states that 13.8 VDC at 23 Amps (317.4 watts) is the maximum draw.  On the internet, I see people using as small as 12-ga wire, also 10-ga, and available charts (if I got it right) says 8-gauge is the ticket.  Anyone want to take a gander at what gauge Yaesu provided?  Maybe I should call them ... In any case, I need terminal connectors ... what size?

STATION GROUND:  Is the ground in the wall, e.g. from plugging in the power supply, enough?  I can get a copper pipe and then connect the radio and power supply to it, then run a ground from the pipe outside to ... what?  The ground in the house electrical panel OK (2 ground rods in the foundation concrete ... what they do nowadays I guess)?  Or should I drive in a copper ground rod outside the shack and ground to that?  Can I start operating before this is done?

Thanks, all comments welcome ... I want the shack to be as 'right' as possible.  Note: Current antenna is a 40m long 20/40/80 OCFD on a 44' mast, ends around 16' off the ground... also new, hoping to try it soon.

Brian
K4JUL 73s
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K6SDW

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Re: Wire gauge? Grounding?
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2022, 08:50:55 AM »

KE0OG, the ARRL and QST newest technical editor has several YouTube videos and articles covering this very subject.

Hope this helps....GL/73
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K1KIM

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Re: Wire gauge? Grounding?
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2022, 08:53:26 AM »

CONNECTORS:  I'm finding conflicting info on the Internet ... What I have is a new FT-991A.  I need terminal connectors to connect the supplied power cable from the (also new) FP-1030A power supply.  There are no markings on the power cables, and not a single mention of the wire gauge in the manual either.  The manual states that 13.8 VDC at 23 Amps (317.4 watts) is the maximum draw.  On the internet, I see people using as small as 12-ga wire, also 10-ga, and available charts (if I got it right) says 8-gauge is the ticket.  Anyone want to take a gander at what gauge Yaesu provided?  Maybe I should call them ... In any case, I need terminal connectors ... what size?

STATION GROUND:  Is the ground in the wall, e.g. from plugging in the power supply, enough?  I can get a copper pipe and then connect the radio and power supply to it, then run a ground from the pipe outside to ... what?  The ground in the house electrical panel OK (2 ground rods in the foundation concrete ... what they do nowadays I guess)?  Or should I drive in a copper ground rod outside the shack and ground to that?  Can I start operating before this is done?

Thanks, all comments welcome ... I want the shack to be as 'right' as possible.  Note: Current antenna is a 40m long 20/40/80 OCFD on a 44' mast, ends around 16' off the ground... also new, hoping to try it soon.

Brian
K4JUL 73s

Your best bet is to purchase/borrow the ARRL book on grounding. It will give you all the info you will need on grounding your shack RF and Power source/chassis grounding. You must tie back into the house mains ground unless impossible to reach. Then there are alternatives.

Regarding the power cables.....There are charts that show the wire size based on the amperage draw and distance.
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K5TEE

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Re: Wire gauge? Grounding?
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2022, 10:13:21 AM »

Look at this chart.
I suspect that Yaesu used 12 gauge cable.

http://assets.bluesea.com/files/resources/newsletter/images/DC_wire_selection_chartlg.jpg

Tom
K5TEE
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K4JUL

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Re: Wire gauge? Grounding?
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2022, 12:04:59 PM »

Look at this chart.
I suspect that Yaesu used 12 gauge cable.

http://assets.bluesea.com/files/resources/newsletter/images/DC_wire_selection_chartlg.jpg

Tom
K5TEE

... nice chart, exactly what I needed.

... Not sure why I didn't think of YouTube ... I sent for the ARRL book on grounding/bonding... thx


« Last Edit: November 08, 2022, 12:12:58 PM by K4JUL »
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WB6BYU

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Re: Wire gauge? Grounding?
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2022, 12:56:37 PM »

Required wire gauge depends on the length of the cable and
the allowable voltage drop at the radio.

If you have a micrometer then you can measure the conductor
diameter and determine the wire size from that.  But most
lugs will handle a range of wire sizes - the crimp lugs with
yellow insulation should handle #12 or #10 wire, and possibly
#8 as well.  If you have binding posts or similar terminals
on the power supply, make sure the other end of the lug will
fit around the posts.


Grounding is a rather complex subject - there are several
different purposes for grounds, with different requirements
(some of which may be contradictory).  So you need to
decide what you want the ground connection to accomplish
before deciding how to do it.  For example, the electrical
safety ground should be provided by the grounded pin on a
3-wire power cord, but some supplies may have 2-wire cords.
RF grounds generally should be right at the antenna feedpoint.
Static discharge grounds are often connected through a high
value resistor.  Lightning grounds are much more critical:  if
you are in a high lightning area, look for advice from those
whose antennas get struck several times a year.

And, the truth is that many ham stations work just fine
without any ground connection at all, regardless of what
it may say in the license material.  I certainly don't bother
with one when I'm backpacking and throw a dipole up in
a tree.

So, first be clear why you want a ground, then figure out
how best to provide it.

K4JUL

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Re: Wire gauge? Grounding?
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2022, 06:53:43 AM »

WB6BYU,

I'm actually an electrical engineer and did already read the ARRL book several years ago.  My main reason for posing my questions here is to hear people's thoughts on the topic ... and I've forgotten most of what the ARRL book said, so I sent for it again.  We're building a house and lots of my stuff is in storage until that's complete.

The house has a dedicated 'radio room' (and office) and I just spoke with my electrician ... he's going to run a heavy gauge ground from the electrical panel's earth ground over to a ground bus in a shallow box, under the (to be) desk area, for radio equipment grounding.  I'll get a 1-1/2 inch diameter 2-3 ft length of copper pipe etc... devices ground to the pipe, pipe grounded to the ground bus, ground wires same length and connected symmetrically about the wire to the ground bus etc.

The purpose of the grounding described above is to be the frame ground for all shack equipment.  On DC devices, the black (-) terminal, is connected to the frame ground, although it's also called the circuit ground.  Same in the house electrical panel ... the black, and the white current-carrying neutral, are connected to the house as well.

RF grounding is complex because any path to the ground (the DC ground above) is going to see an input impedance that has resistive, inductive reactance, and capacitive reactance.  The reactive impedances are a function of frequency ... to design an effective RF ground, you have to pick your frequency to design around.  Considering static noise, electrical noise, and the broad range of frequencies in our band plan, a single RF ground is impossible if you want it to work well across the board.  I'm convinced that the best ground system is a well-done DC ground as described plus RF chokes on the coax just outside the shack is probably the best you can do ... dampen/absorb the common mode RF, don't ground it (you can't really).  Comments welcome ... I'm new at the amateur radio thing ... been licensed for awhile, but just now live on property that lets me do what I want without petty neighbors and petty tyrants telling me what to do (HOA/CC&Rs people taking money from you so they can tell you what you can and cannot do on YOUR OWN property).

I'd have to dig out the equipment to see, but I also have an ICOM IC-7100, MFJ power supply, and LDG tuner in a box somewhere ... one or two of those devices do not even HAVE a ground screw or lug on them ... impossible, without modification, to ground all of those devices at the same time.  I suspect (without looking it up) that it was the radio and tuner that had no ground screw.  The tuner shouldn't need it, the radio's frame ground is likely connected to the black terminal for input power, and therefore depends on the power supply's black terminal/frame ground/ground screw for ground ... and the power supply frame ground also connected to the safety ground in the 3-prong plug for wall power.  That's daisy chaining, albeit short, and not a superior answer.

I still need to look into lightning protection and grounding at the antenna (I'm not convinced the shield should be, but a ground rod for lightning protection is a good idea)

Anyway ... off to work.  I'll try to get some KE0OG vids in this weekend ....

K4JUL

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WA3SKN

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Re: Wire gauge? Grounding?
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2022, 10:03:17 AM »

So what current flow is expected?... "Why are you grounding?"
Lightning?  A Gazillion amps at a Gazillion volts for a VERY short period of time (low Z).
DC power?  25-30 amps max?
Static dissipation? "microvolts per meter" on the antenna?
Copper flashing vs 12 ga vs a resistive path to get rid of static charge gives a lot of choices.
Your fp1030a has a ground in the power plug but no lug, the FT991a Does have a lug right beside the antenna jack and Yaesu wants you to ground it.
however, your first question probably should be "So what did the power company use for ground?" ???
Then you can start planning your "single point ground" for the shack!

-Mike.
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K4JUL

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Re: Wire gauge? Grounding?
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2022, 11:00:15 AM »

So what current flow is expected?... "Why are you grounding?"
Lightning?  A Gazillion amps at a Gazillion volts for a VERY short period of time (low Z).
DC power?  25-30 amps max?
Static dissipation? "microvolts per meter" on the antenna?
Copper flashing vs 12 ga vs a resistive path to get rid of static charge gives a lot of choices.
Your fp1030a has a ground in the power plug but no lug, the FT991a Does have a lug right beside the antenna jack and Yaesu wants you to ground it.
however, your first question probably should be "So what did the power company use for ground?" ???
Then you can start planning your "single point ground" for the shack!

-Mike.

Must be a full moon or something.  #1) The FP1030A has a ground lug/screw on the bottom and it's labeled with a ground symbol stamped into the metal.  #2) Yaesu recommends that both the radio and power supply are connected to a common ground - if you don't know why, then look into reference voltages and why a common ground is important.  #3) The power company doesn't wire a house or install grounds for the house, and the ground associated with the power company drop is not used by any house - houses have their own earth ground - look that up too.  #4) Look into BONDING which is what the single-point ground is for - there is zero current, zero volts, on that ground unless a short circuit to ground (or frame ground) occurs.  There's a difference between grounding and bonding - another research topic.

I'm done.  Notifications off.
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RFRY

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Re: Wire gauge? Grounding?
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2022, 05:31:01 AM »

...  I'm convinced that the best ground system is a well-done DC ground as described plus RF chokes on the coax just outside the shack is probably the best you can do ... dampen/absorb the common mode RF, don't ground it (you can't really).  Comments welcome ...

However "end fed" antennas needing/using a path to an r-f ground reference potential to work properly have other considerations with respect to the use of RF chokes (below):

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