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Author Topic: Distortion from high SWR?  (Read 414 times)

AD7VO

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Distortion from high SWR?
« on: November 11, 2022, 04:49:25 PM »

A fellow Ham recently told me that the reflections from a high SWR causes the reflected modulated signal to interfere with the forward modulated signal and cause distortion.  I have never heard or read anything like this in my 30 years of licensed amateur activity.  Is there any truth to this? I doubted his assertion since I know many amateurs run high SWR on ladder line to a doublet antenna but I thought I'd run it past you guys with more technical knowledge than I have.
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W9IQ

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Re: Distortion from high SWR?
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2022, 05:03:36 PM »

Your fellow ham is incorrect. The bandwidth of our amateur signals are narrow enough that we don't need to be concerned about the possibility of distortion due to high SWR. There most certainly is interference between the forward and reflected waves but this does not result in signal distortion. It only results in the standing voltage and current waves and the change in input impedance along the length of the transmission line.

Some equally misinformed hams will asset that common mode current is the result of elevated SWR. This too is another myth.

- Glenn W9IQ
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- Glenn W9IQ

God runs electromagnetics on Monday, Wednesday and Friday by the wave theory and the devil runs it on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday by the Quantum theory.

KT4WO

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Re: Distortion from high SWR?
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2022, 02:00:48 AM »

"Your fellow ham is incorrect."

In the age when you can get a "tech licence" in a day, I would
discount most of what fellow hams tell you.

ie,  "ARRL Technical Specialist"  =  Life member and tows the party line.
 
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G3RZP

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Re: Distortion from high SWR?
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2022, 03:58:44 AM »

Glenn,

What about the PA stage limiting because of  seeing the incorrect load impedance -  assuming  that the PA devices don't "put their legs in the air and die"? Of course, that won't happen with an old fashioned tube PA provided it's tuned up properly....

73

Peter G3RZP
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W9IQ

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Re: Distortion from high SWR?
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2022, 04:23:06 AM »

Glenn,

What about the PA stage limiting because of  seeing the incorrect load impedance -  assuming  that the PA devices don't "put their legs in the air and die"? Of course, that won't happen with an old fashioned tube PA provided it's tuned up properly....

73

Peter G3RZP

Peter,

Most certainly the deviant input impedance can prove to be problematic. But it would be a stretch to broadly categorize the resulting power reduction as a 'distortion'. If we dug deeply enough we could possibly find impacts on harmonic output and IMD in some cases but not in any general or significant sense.

- Glenn W9IQ
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- Glenn W9IQ

God runs electromagnetics on Monday, Wednesday and Friday by the wave theory and the devil runs it on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday by the Quantum theory.

HB9PJT

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Re: Distortion from high SWR?
« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2022, 05:03:18 AM »

Of course, fellow ham is right. When a high SWR is applied, the transmitter will start to generate IMD if the SWR protection from the transmitter does not reduce the power. At an SWR of 3, the transmitter would have to have 73% more supply voltage available so that the signal is not additionally distorted.

73, Peter - HB9PJT
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W9IQ

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Re: Distortion from high SWR?
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2022, 05:32:01 AM »

Of course, fellow ham is right. When a high SWR is applied, the transmitter will start to generate IMD if the SWR protection from the transmitter does not reduce the power. At an SWR of 3, the transmitter would have to have 73% more supply voltage available so that the signal is not additionally distorted.

73, Peter - HB9PJT

Peter,

SWR does not change IMD in any meaningful way. I think you mean to say that the load impedance of the transmitter might alter IMD.

- Glenn W9IQ
« Last Edit: November 14, 2022, 05:35:45 AM by W9IQ »
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- Glenn W9IQ

God runs electromagnetics on Monday, Wednesday and Friday by the wave theory and the devil runs it on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday by the Quantum theory.

HB9PJT

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Re: Distortion from high SWR?
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2022, 05:53:05 AM »

Glenn, an SWR of 3 means that the load is three times higher or three times lower than 50 ohms. When the load is 3 times higher in impedance, the transmitter enters saturation, which causes IMD distortion. This can be prevented with SWR protection or ALC.

73, Peter - HB9PJT
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W9IQ

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Re: Distortion from high SWR?
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2022, 06:03:14 AM »

Glenn, an SWR of 3 means that the load is three times higher or three times lower than 50 ohms.

No it does not. Consider a low loss, 1/2 wavelength, 600 ohm transmission line terminated with 50 ohms. The SWR is 12 but the input impedance is 50 ohms.

- Glenn W9IQ
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- Glenn W9IQ

God runs electromagnetics on Monday, Wednesday and Friday by the wave theory and the devil runs it on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday by the Quantum theory.

AI5BC

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Re: Distortion from high SWR?
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2022, 06:12:20 AM »

Glenn, an SWR of 3 means that the load is three times higher or three times lower than 50 ohms.
Peter, you need taught a lesson. Glen is never wrong. Do not bother to produce facts, Glen will never accept them or admit he is wrong. If you argue, Glen will cry like a baby to the moderators and have your comments removed.
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SWMAN

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Re: Distortion from high SWR?
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2022, 07:09:56 AM »

 WOW !!   THATS ALL,  JUST WOW !!
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WA3SKN

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Re: Distortion from high SWR?
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2022, 09:55:55 AM »

Most "distortions" are simply RF getting back into the microphone input, and usually caused by a high "RF in the shack".  And most "RF in the shack" is caused by reflections caused by a high SWR.  However, it is NOT the forward and reflected signals mixing! It is simply RF getting into the audio input.
So if you fix the "RF in the shack" the distortions go away!
If you listen with another receiver while transmitting into a "known good dummy load", you will know what your signal sounds like!

-Mike.
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W9IQ

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Re: Distortion from high SWR?
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2022, 03:13:43 PM »

And most "RF in the shack" is caused by reflections caused by a high SWR. 

Not at all. It is common mode current, not SWR, that often causes RF in the shack. An elevated SWR does not cause common mode current.

- Glenn W9IQ
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- Glenn W9IQ

God runs electromagnetics on Monday, Wednesday and Friday by the wave theory and the devil runs it on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday by the Quantum theory.

WB6BYU

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Re: Distortion from high SWR?
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2022, 03:58:01 PM »

Quote from: AD7VO

A fellow Ham recently told me that the reflections from a high SWR causes the reflected modulated signal to interfere with the forward modulated signal and cause distortion...



If the transmitter sees a load impedance other than the value
for which it is designed, then the distortion level may increase.

But the description of the mechanism is totally out to lunch.

It isn't the SWR on the line that causes the distortion:  it is quite
possible to operate a line at high SWR and still have no additional
distortion.  What matters is the load impedance that the transmitter
sees.

My job used to involve measuring the distortion levels of WiFi
transmitter chips at different load impedances.  This becomes
particularly important with 256QAM (quadrature amplitude
modulation with 256 targets).  Each "target" is a particular value
of both amplitude and phase, and represents an 8-bit value.
The standard measurement was Error Vector Magnitude (EVM)
at a particular power level, and over some range of load impedances.
EVM is measured by generating all the 256 possible target values
and calculating how close to the target the transmitted signal is.

In the real world, EVM is how a device determines the reliability
of the received signal - when it gets too high, the devices switch
to a lower data rate that can tolerate more error, and/or higher
power.

We had to verify that every chip we shipped met the required
specifications.  It was fascinating to see how the display of targets
vs. actual values shifted with load impedance and output power.
When the transmitted signal went into compression, we could
see the higher amplitude signals were short of their targets.  Some
load impedances actually improved the EVM, but the requirement
was that it meet spec over a particular range of load impedance
values (perhaps corresponding to a 2 : 1 SWR, a 10 dB return loss,
or whatever).

Now, this was a pretty extreme case, where phase and amplitude
were supposed to be precise values for high speed digital encoding.
With a ham SSB transmitter, there may be some increase in high
order IMD, depending on how hard the transmitter is driven and
the ALC action.  That's not likely to be an issue for the station you
are talking to, rather to those operating elsewhere in the band.
Details will depend greatly on the load impedance and output
power, as well as the transmitter design.

With a digital signal where you turn down the output so the ALC
isn't active, that should ensure it is in the linear range, and so
wouldn't add any distortion.


I've carefully said "load impedance" in this explanation rather than
"SWR".  It has nothing to do with the SWR on the feedline, just the
resulting impedance that the transmitter sees.  For example, an
SWR of 2 : 1 might yield a load impedance of 100 + j0 ohms, or
25 + j0 ohms, or 75 - j35 ohms.  The transmitter likely will
respond differently to each of those values:  some might reduce
distortion, some may increase it, depending on the design.

If you have a tube amp with and adjustable output network,
tuning the amp for proper current and output power should
handle any issues with load impedance (assuming it is
within the range that the amp is capable of matching).


tl:dr

A non-optimal load impedance may increase the transmitter
distortion, but the SWR on the feedline itself has nothing to
do with it.

G3RZP

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Re: Distortion from high SWR?
« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2022, 01:51:34 AM »

If one applies the 'right' coding and sacrifice some of the 256 possible states, it is possible to gain up to 10dB or more output power capability by removing those states where all the signals add in phase and amplitude. A professor at Bradford university published several papers on the subject and the necessary algorithms back in the early 1990s.
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