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Author Topic: Greyline Vertical issues  (Read 2417 times)

WA5YOM

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Greyline Vertical issues
« on: November 14, 2022, 08:13:38 PM »

I have a stealth Greyline Vertical. I installed a DXE MC20-1-1T, 1:1 Balun Feedline Choke at the Antenna.

https://www.dxengineering.com/parts/DXE-MC20-1-1T

I tune it with a Flex TGXL.
Reception on most bands seems adequate, and the noise level is surprisingly low....the issue is......It will not tune above 7.152 on 40, or on 10MHZ at all...
Also, it hears great on 80 cw, tunes the swr to better than 1.5/1......but it just doesn't seem to get out at all.
I connected to Remote Ham Radio........to try and listen to my signal.....I never heard it on a single station I connected to.......I am at a loss as to what is going on.
Tim
wa5yom
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WB6BYU

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Re: Greyline Vertical issues
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2022, 08:25:29 PM »

What are you using for a ground system?

WA5YOM

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Re: Greyline Vertical issues
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2022, 08:48:51 PM »

The Greyline is not the typical Vertical....it is balanced OCF Vertical Dipole.
Quote from Greylime
"The flagpole must not be fed unbalanced. It is an electrical-half-wavelength vertical dipole. Both ends are insulated from the ground and the off-center (OCF) feed point must be provided with a balanced feed."
My configuaration is as follows.....
Antenna, 1:1 balun, connected to the ourput of the tuner...
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W5RG

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Re: Greyline Vertical issues
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2022, 09:28:50 PM »

 I have read the reviews here on E-ham and from what I have learned is most put the tuner at the antenna.What is the SWR without the tuner? That will tell you a lot! You my have more loss in the coax than is going to the antenna. Where is the balun, at the antenna or at the tuner?
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WB6BYU

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Re: Greyline Vertical issues
« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2022, 09:47:16 PM »

Quote from: WA5YOM

The Greyline is not the typical Vertical....it is balanced OCF Vertical Dipole.
Quote from Greylime
"The flagpole must not be fed unbalanced. It is an electrical-half-wavelength vertical dipole. Both ends are insulated from the ground and the off-center (OCF) feed point must be provided with a balanced feed."



Well, yes, that is the manufacturer's claim.

But that might not be the actual way it operates.

If it is significantly less than 1/2 wavelength long, it is unlikely
that it is actually working as an OCFD in the conventional sense.

If Owen's analysis is correct (I don't have an antenna handy
to test), then, the better the balun, the worse performance is
likely to be.  With a mediocre balun, the ferrite will act as a
load resistor in series between the bottom of the antenna
feedpoint and ground.   That stabilizes the impedance at a value
suitable for many tuners, but reduces the efficiency.  The better
the balun, the higher the series impedance, the higher the losses,
and the more difficult the impedance is to match.

A quick check would be to remove the balun, connect the tuner
directly to the antenna, add some ground radials or a ground
rod, and see if the antenna works better in that configuration.


Of course, this all also depends on what tuner you are using,
as all tuners have limitations on what impedances they can match.

RFRY

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Re: Greyline Vertical issues
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2022, 04:18:46 AM »

The Physics of this antenna system configuration supports the claims made for it, including the point that it needs/uses no buried or elevated radials to achieve its performance (see below).

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KD6VXI

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Re: Greyline Vertical issues
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2022, 07:15:58 AM »

The Greyline is not the typical Vertical....it is balanced OCF Vertical Dipole.
Quote from Greylime
"The flagpole must not be fed unbalanced. It is an electrical-half-wavelength vertical dipole. Both ends are insulated from the ground and the off-center (OCF) feed point must be provided with a balanced feed."
My configuaration is as follows.....
Antenna, 1:1 balun, connected to the ourput of the tuner...


Balanced and off center fed are not the same thing.

--Shane
WP2ASS / ex KD6VXI
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KH6AQ

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Re: Greyline Vertical issues
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2022, 08:54:04 AM »

I have a stealth Greyline Vertical. I installed a DXE MC20-1-1T, 1:1 Balun Feedline Choke at the Antenna.

https://www.dxengineering.com/parts/DXE-MC20-1-1T

I tune it with a Flex TGXL.
Tim
wa5yom

Aloha Tim, where is the Flex TGXL located, at the antenna or in the shack? If in the shack, what kind of coax is the Grey Line Vertical fed with and how long is it?
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W9IQ

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Re: Greyline Vertical issues
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2022, 09:04:01 AM »

The Greyline is not the typical Vertical....it is balanced OCF Vertical Dipole.
Quote from Greylime
"The flagpole must not be fed unbalanced. It is an electrical-half-wavelength vertical dipole. Both ends are insulated from the ground and the off-center (OCF) feed point must be provided with a balanced feed."
My configuaration is as follows.....
Antenna, 1:1 balun, connected to the ourput of the tuner...


Balanced and off center fed are not the same thing.

--Shane
WP2ASS / ex KD6VXI

I took those statements to mean that the antenna is imbalanced (as an OCF) therefore it needs to be fed with balanced current e.g. by a current balun / common mode choke.

- Glenn W9IQ
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- Glenn W9IQ

God runs electromagnetics on Monday, Wednesday and Friday by the wave theory and the devil runs it on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday by the Quantum theory.

WA5YOM

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Re: Greyline Vertical issues
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2022, 06:20:46 AM »

Thanks for all the fine responses.......
I read the Owens article a few days ago...which left me rather alarmed about the manufacturers claims.....lake of efficiency....which is my exact problem. However, the antenna in the article was configured slightly different as I recall. It was grounded.
As the manufacturer states, I have not grounded the antenna. It is assembled as the directions stipulate. ( I will throw this in, by far the worst documentation I have ever received on a product, at least in my opinion)
So, my coax is about 100 ft, temporary install, I can reduce it about another 45 ft. in length....(LMR-400 coax)
I have a 1:1 Choke balun connected at the antenna. The coax enters the shack through a MFJ window passthrough. The passthrough is grounded.
The coax is then connected to my 403A antenna switch, then to my Flex TGXL Tuner.
I did not install a remote antenna tuner, as recommended by the manufacturer, they did say success has been accomplished without a remote tuner.
As stated, my tuner tunes the SWR to 1.5/1 in most instances. It doesn't tune the high end of 40 and does not tune 10mhz.
He hears signals well, very low noise......but it most instances the efficiency is so low, that it hardly radiates at all.....
Since my tuner is unbalanced and the antenna is balanced, I would hesitate connecting it direct for a test.
I am certainly not an expert in antenna theory, even so, I am not convinced a remote antenna tuner will correct the efficiency problem, thus I am not ready to purchase a $1000 dollar tuner just to find out.
Any additional advice is certainly appreciated.
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W9IQ

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Re: Greyline Vertical issues
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2022, 08:12:30 AM »

The loss in system efficiency and thus gainis largely due to the losses in the common mode choke/balun and the coax. If you take impedance measurements at the choke on each band, you can largely determine the losses in your coax cable. This will allow you to quantitatively assess the effect and therefore value to you of a remote tuner.

The choke has have a very high impedance in order to be effective and not dissipate power. What model choke are you using?

- Glenn W9IQ
« Last Edit: November 16, 2022, 08:16:46 AM by W9IQ »
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- Glenn W9IQ

God runs electromagnetics on Monday, Wednesday and Friday by the wave theory and the devil runs it on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday by the Quantum theory.

WA3SKN

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Re: Greyline Vertical issues
« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2022, 08:56:29 AM »

Which Greyline vertical?  They make a lot of different antennas... most of which are NOT 50 ohm terminations, and they imply (but not state) using a remote tuner at the base of their antennas.
Your 1:1 balun at the antenna does not remedy this.  It appears you are using coax from the tuner to the antenna.  Any mismatch losses over the coax are not corrected.  The flex tuner has coax input and output, so coax losses and mismatches remain.

-Mike.
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KH6AQ

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Re: Greyline Vertical issues
« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2022, 09:08:47 AM »

I have a stealth Greyline Vertical. I installed a DXE MC20-1-1T, 1:1 Balun Feedline Choke at the Antenna.

https://www.dxengineering.com/parts/DXE-MC20-1-1T

I tune it with a Flex TGXL.
Reception on most bands seems adequate, and the noise level is surprisingly low....the issue is......It will not tune above 7.152 on 40, or on 10MHZ at all...
Also, it hears great on 80 cw, tunes the swr to better than 1.5/1......but it just doesn't seem to get out at all.
I connected to Remote Ham Radio........to try and listen to my signal.....I never heard it on a single station I connected to.......I am at a loss as to what is going on.
Tim
wa5yom

Here is what I think is going on.

Problem(s)
1) The Tuner Genius limited 10:1 SWR tuning range is preventing it from tuning the antenna on the 40 and 30 meter bands. My simulated SWR at the shack is 20:1 on the 40 meter band and 13:1 on the 30 meter band.

2) The length of coax -- even if RG-8X type -- is burning up a majority of your signal on some bands, hence the surprisingly low noise level and why it does not seem to get out. Even the tallest Greyline vertical [dipole] is only 28' and below the 20 meter band a remote tuner is a must to minimize feedline loss. An EZNEC model of the 28' vertical [dipole] fed thru 50' of RG-8 coax shows this coax loss:

80m,  20 dB (1% of your signal is making it thru the coax)
40m,  10 dB (10% of your signal is making it thru the coax)
20m,    1 dB
10m,    3 dB

Doubling the coaxial cable length does not harm performance on 80/40 meters too much because the SWR in the added line length is quite a bit lower.

Solution: Place a remote antenna tuner at the antenna.

My similar experience is tuning a 34' (not 43') vertical both in the shack thru 100' of LM-400 coax and with a remote tuner at the antenna. Using a 10:1 SWR capable ATU -- IC-7300 in 10:1 tuning mode -- it would not tune on 80 meters. Tuning it with a manual tuner worked but coax loss took a toll on my signal. Switching to an MFJ-993BRT remote ATU at the antenna base turned the antenna from just useable to quite satisfactory. Receive noise levels were much higher due to the much lower coaxial cable loss.

References
Tuner Genius   https://www.flexradio.com/products/tuner-genius-xl/?sku=TGXL-SO

Greyline verticals   https://greylineperformance.com/collections/frontpage

Coax Loss Calculator   https://www.qsl.net/co8tw/Coax_Calculator.htm
« Last Edit: November 16, 2022, 09:29:06 AM by KH6AQ »
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KH6AQ

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Re: Greyline Vertical issues
« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2022, 10:35:00 AM »

Correction plus coax loss simulation using 45' of LMR-400.:

I meant to say RG-8, rather than RG-8X. RG-8 is used in the EZNEC simulations. Here are coaxial cable simulation results using 45' of LMR-400.

80m,  17 dB (2% of your signal is making it thru the coax)
40m,    9 dB (13% of your signal is making it thru the coax)
« Last Edit: November 16, 2022, 10:46:14 AM by KH6AQ »
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WA5YOM

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Re: Greyline Vertical issues
« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2022, 08:31:23 PM »

This is the Choke Balun I am using...

https://www.dxengineering.com/parts/DXE-MC20-1-1T
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