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Author Topic: Has "Assisted" dumbed-down contesting?  (Read 403 times)

K7JQ

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Re: Has "Assisted" dumbed-down contesting?
« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2022, 08:10:21 AM »

John K3TN,

Excellent post from an experienced contester! Yes, the really skilled contest ops will always win or place high no matter what category they choose to participate in. Even if they choose Assisted, their ability to know when to and skillfully mix Running, S&P assistance, and S&P manually will produce higher scores than the less experienced. Especially if they've also mastered SO2R, SO2V, or 2BSIQ.

Many of them also operate well equipped stations in geographically advantageous locations...rare mults, propagation-friendly sites... producing loud enough signals to enable them to successfully Run more than S&P, sometimes as much as 95%. In cases like that, S&P becomes an afterthought moot point. I tend to think the real skilled ops are those that can handle and manage large pileups when they Run, with the ability to instantly pick out call signs without having to ask for repeats, sometimes achieving a smooth 5 to 6 Q's per minute in fast exchange contests.

Perhaps instead of "dumbed-down" Assisted, I could have termed it "crutch" or "lazy" contesting...for those who only point-and-click S&P, and waste time Running incessantly with 100W and a dipole, producing little responses. They are out there.

As far as using history files to auto-fill the exchange boxes, as I mentioned in my original post, if you're not conscientious enough to confirm-copy what is actually sent, and make corrections when applicable, you're only hurting yourself when log-checking is done and you wind up losing  points. It also applies to confirming the call sign as spotted.

In reference to using spotting networks and the RBN in DXing (especially split operation pileups), that's a whole different topic that I won't get into here, as this forum is called "Contesting" ;).

73, Bob K7JQ
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K7JQ

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Re: Has "Assisted" dumbed-down contesting?
« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2022, 09:13:18 AM »


Looking at the 2022 ARRL DX CW contest the unassisted ops generally garnered better scores than the unlimited ops.

2022 ARRL DX CW results     https://contests.arrl.org/ContestResults/2022/DX-CW-2022-FinalFullResults.pdf


IMO, that could be due to stations that are mostly successful Running much more than S&P, producing higher Q rates (up to 6 Q's/minute) and thus better scores. More highly skilled ops in well equipped (lots of aluminum) loud stations that don't really care whether they use spotting network S&P or not. They might also feel they'd place higher in the less populated Unassisted category. In my contest club results for last weekend's CQWW CW test, there were twice as many Assisted entries than Unassisted (all power levels combined).

I'd think that the majority of those who choose Assisted/Unlimited would be those that mostly operate S&P (maybe less experienced ops/more basic stations) that couldn't come anywhere close to the Q rates of the Runners.

But, there are always exceptions ;).
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N2SR

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Re: Has "Assisted" dumbed-down contesting?
« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2022, 12:49:50 PM »

It’s much easier now. Today, it’s more a contest of who can sit in a chair the longest.

Anyone can sit in a chair for 48 hours. 

Let us know when you can do 2BISQ at over 300+/hour for hours at a time.

I have neither the patience or interest. But my chair is very comfortable

Then don't put down others who do much more than "who can sit in a chair the longest." 

No one cares about your chair. 

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N2SR

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Re: Has "Assisted" dumbed-down contesting?
« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2022, 12:53:21 PM »


Anyone can sit in a chair for 48 hours. 


That's the full duration of a major contest...straight through non-stop. A herculean effort, but yes, it has been done many times. Not so sure if "anyone" can do it ;). The most I ever did was 32 hours.

By the way, you had quite a nice performance this past weekend in 35 hours. Congrats!

Went right over your head....

I said "anyone can sit in a chair for 48 hours."    ;)

Thanks. 
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K7JQ

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Re: Has "Assisted" dumbed-down contesting?
« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2022, 01:19:26 PM »


Anyone can sit in a chair for 48 hours. 


That's the full duration of a major contest...straight through non-stop. A herculean effort, but yes, it has been done many times. Not so sure if "anyone" can do it ;). The most I ever did was 32 hours.

By the way, you had quite a nice performance this past weekend in 35 hours. Congrats!

Went right over your head....

I said "anyone can sit in a chair for 48 hours."    ;)

Thanks.

Yes it did....

Took me a bit, but now get the gist ;).

You're welcome.
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KH6AQ

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Re: Has "Assisted" dumbed-down contesting?
« Reply #20 on: November 30, 2022, 06:05:18 PM »


"I tend to think the real skilled ops are those that can handle and manage large pileups when they Run, with the ability to instantly pick out call signs without having to ask for repeats, sometimes achieving a smooth 5 to 6 Q's per minute in fast exchange contests."

73, Bob K7JQ

Bob, perhaps this is a subject for another thread but let me shoot this by you. I've been working hard to learn to pick out calls signs in pileups without asking for repeats and I could use some tips on how to do it. I've been experimenting on the air and with Morse Runner and still end up with too many partial calls in anything but a small pileup.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2022, 06:08:26 PM by KH6AQ »
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N1UR

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Re: Has "Assisted" dumbed-down contesting?
« Reply #21 on: December 01, 2022, 02:24:35 AM »

The question isn't whether it has "dumbed down" contesting.  Its certainly done that to finding stations doing S & P.  But that is a decade or more horse out of the barn.  What it has done is transformed contesting into the runners and the clickers with a small group of both.

Think about it.  If no one was running, there is nothing to spot or click on.  So it starts with the premise that there are plenty of runners to be clicked.

If you can run effectively, run.  The large group of assisted ops finds you more easily and load up the Qs for you.  However a lot of people can't run well for much of the contest and they click for most of the contest.  They end up competing with themselves clicking all weekend.

I would say it has transformed contesting into a large group of people that can put pretty decent and satisfying scores and have fun, pretty much clicking all weekend.   Certainly during the daylight and early evening hours in good sunspots.  And the payoff is to the runners who are found more easily and efficiently and have higher rates.

Then there is the small subset that are doing both, effectively.  Which is the only way to end up in the top 10 box of the all band categories.  But that isn't the goal of 95% of the contesters.  Its to have fun, work mults, put up a good score for their goals and maybe their contest club.  And for that vast majority, the efficiency of assisted makes a lot of sense.

Ed  N1UR
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N2SR

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Re: Has "Assisted" dumbed-down contesting?
« Reply #22 on: December 01, 2022, 02:50:29 AM »

Now, if you had asked "Has "the globally interconnected packet spotting system and the Reverse Beacon Network" dumbed-down DXing and if so has that dumbed down contesting in any way" I'd say yes, definitely.

The same can be said about a few DXpeditions (VK0 comes to mind, that provided almost instantaneous confirmation of your QSO.  The result was that some "operators" kept calling continuously, in the hope that they would see their callsign on the screen (and I do not mean FT-8)

I disagree about contesting.  Those that choose to not copy the exchange are just hurting themselves.  As with any technology, there is no going back.

Poor operating in pileups has been complained about at least as long as I've been licensed (1969) and really for many decades before that. But, when individual packetclusters began to be interconnected over the Internet and when general purpose logging software integrated spotting, it seemed to quickly get exponentially worse.

The big issue is that the ARRL added various awards that "forced" DXers to work the DXpedition on as many bands and modes as possible.  That's why the pileups are bigger. 

The Reverse Beacon Network showed an immediate negative impact: skimmers don't report if a station is working split, so when "DX P5ABC 7.007" comes out, hundreds start calling on 7.007 and the pileup police startup, and the downward spiral starts up.

Ah. Must be the RBN's fault.  Certainly can't be the poor operators who choose to transmit first and listen later. 

Contest pileups are much thinner than rare one DX pileups, and there is almost no split operation, but when human spotters and skimmers make mistakes, a busted spot leads to many callers causing a dupe deluge on poor SP5ABC, who they already worked!

The RBN software is continuously being tweaked.  It's rare for the RBN to make a mistake.  Though I have been spotted as TN2SR, there is nothing I can do about that because TN2SR is a valid callsign.

However, I remember a contest DXpedition about 10 years ago to 6Y5, where many many times they were spotted as BY5.  I'll take RBN spots over humans any day.  In fact, this past weekend, I set my RBN filter to not have ANY human spots. Every single spot I went to was correct.  But back a month ago in the SSB contest, there were numerous "Sunday afternoon DXers" who spotted busted many calls.  So many, that I have added those spotters to my list of blacklisted spotters. 

You could have also asked "What has really dumbed down contesting?" and my answer would be history files - ops are using autofiill on name, state, CK, PREC, etc and not even listening to what is actually being sent.

I live in Maryland and have for many years, but a few years ago I started remote opping a station in VA. In contests where MD is the exchange, 30% of stations logged me in MD even though I was sending VA, when the norm was less than 10% busting the exchange if I was in MD and sending MD.

Looking at those calls who obviously were using history files and not overriding them with actual copying, I never saw the callsign of anyone who finished in the top ten in any category. The great contest ops are using the technology skillfully vs. in a dumbed down manner!

73 John K3TN

Therefore, it's the poor contesting ops or those that are not doing the actual copying.  During SS CW, I did a minimal effort 84/84.  I used a CHF, and yes, there were a few Qs where the section wasn't correct in the CHF.  Easy enough to enter/change is needed. 

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K3TN

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Re: Has "Assisted" dumbed-down contesting?
« Reply #23 on: December 01, 2022, 03:52:24 AM »

In reply to N2SR:

The RBN is definitely at fault when it shows the same poor operating procedures of human spotters:

  • If the DX is operating split, indicate that in the spots. Good ops do, the RBN doesn't
  • The RBN definitely does bust calls. The CT1BOX SKIMBUST filters help filter many out but many get through

The depth of pileups doesn't bother me - anything that gets more people to transmit more in this hobby is a good thing. But, the RBN could do more to not make the pileups worse.

73 John K3TN
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John K3TN

N2SR

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Re: Has "Assisted" dumbed-down contesting?
« Reply #24 on: December 01, 2022, 05:51:34 AM »


The RBN is definitely at fault when it shows the same poor operating procedures of human spotters:

  • If the DX is operating split, indicate that in the spots. Good ops do, the RBN doesn't

RBNs provide the callsign and frequency.  That's all it was originally intended to do.  Maybe in the future it will do more, but in reality, that is what humans are supposed to figure out, isn't it?  Otherwise, we'd have computers that connect to other computers to make contacts with signal strengths typically so low that humans cannot copy. 

Poor ops are the problem, not the RBNs. 

  • The RBN definitely does bust calls. The CT1BOX SKIMBUST filters help filter many out but many get through

I never said that RBNs do not make mistakes.  I said that it's rare for RBNs to make a mistake.  And they make far less mistakes than humans do.  There are ways to filter RBN spots that do not meet the criteria of a valid callsign/spot.   

The depth of pileups doesn't bother me - anything that gets more people to transmit more in this hobby is a good thing. But, the RBN could do more to not make the pileups worse.

73 John K3TN

And everyone transmits blindly on the same QSX frequency as the previous QSO, hoping for the DX station to work them as well.  Is that the RBNs fault as well?


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K1VSK

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Re: Has "Assisted" dumbed-down contesting?
« Reply #25 on: December 01, 2022, 06:06:16 AM »

It’s much easier now. Today, it’s more a contest of who can sit in a chair the longest.

Anyone can sit in a chair for 48 hours. 

Let us know when you can do 2BISQ at over 300+/hour for hours at a time.

I have neither the patience or interest. But my chair is very comfortable

Then don't put down others who do much more than "who can sit in a chair the longest." 

No one cares about your chair.

That’s essentially all that contesters do - sit in a chair while playing with a radio. You can glorify it all you want but that is fundamentally it. No need to have a tantrum over it.
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WW5F

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Re: Has "Assisted" dumbed-down contesting?
« Reply #26 on: December 01, 2022, 06:50:20 AM »

I have a problem with calling it a "skill."  Maybe it is a "skill" by some standard.  You have to know your radio and adjust it fast, correctly, the first time so you don't miss the call sign.  You have to copy that call sign.  You have to send your info.  You have to log it.  Running or searching and pouncing.  This skill varies by the amount of radio and antenna you have, the amount of computer you have and the amount of "butt in chair" (that's a great way to describe it!) you can tolerate.

I think I've gone through the entire spectrum of contesting.  At first, decades ago, it was fun.  VFO, headphones, paddles, and paper.  It helped tremendously to have two people, one handling the paper log and dupe sheet and the other on the radio and paddles.  Then, VFO, headphones, paddles and computer logging.  And in the last few years, headphones and computer connected to your radio, type in call, hit send on the keyboard.  QSO rates up around 6 per minute.  Never did "assisted".  Never just clicked on the call sign and hit send.  I've always typed in the call I heard.

After a few minutes, you see your score automatically update on the screen.  This adds a bit more motivation to keep it up.

After an hour, you straighten your back because it's starting to hurt if you don't sit right.  Can't seem to get that volume right, even on these expensive headphones.  Switch back and forth between headphones and loud speaker.  I keep having to increase volume, make it louder and louder to hear.  That static is starting to get annoying no matter how narrow you make the filter.  Can't make it too narrow, can't make it too wide.  Always moving the top/bottom of the filter.

After several hours, you look at the clock and realize why you all of a sudden feel so tired-- you missed dinner, the sun set 4 hours ago and your ears are ringing.

Go to sleep with ringing in the ears after slamming a PBJ sandwich.  Start again first thing tomorrow after one cup of coffee.

Then the final rush of the last 1/2 hour!  Watching the seconds on the GPS synchronized clock on the computer in that last minute.  Just ONE more new call?

Then, upload your cabrillo log and wait.

Several months later, the REWARD!  Your call sign buried in micro-print in the last 20 pages of QST!

The way for me to move my call sign up that long list of others the next time is to increase my back pain, the ringing in my ears, stop drinking any fluids so I don't have to use the bathroom and maybe start using some better chemicals to keep me awake longer.

pass...
« Last Edit: December 01, 2022, 06:52:31 AM by WW5F »
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K7JQ

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Re: Has "Assisted" dumbed-down contesting?
« Reply #27 on: December 01, 2022, 07:53:14 AM »


"I tend to think the real skilled ops are those that can handle and manage large pileups when they Run, with the ability to instantly pick out call signs without having to ask for repeats, sometimes achieving a smooth 5 to 6 Q's per minute in fast exchange contests."

73, Bob K7JQ

Bob, perhaps this is a subject for another thread but let me shoot this by you. I've been working hard to learn to pick out calls signs in pileups without asking for repeats and I could use some tips on how to do it. I've been experimenting on the air and with Morse Runner and still end up with too many partial calls in anything but a small pileup.

Dave KH6AQ,

Good idea for another thread. As I posted earlier, with my HOA stealth antenna, I can't sufficiently sustain runs enough to offer much response on that. I mostly run in contests like 7QP, AZQP, and JA/Oceana openings in DX tests...and even those don't result in large pileups for me ;). I'll generally work the loudest ones first; do my best to concentrate on others with different pitch tones a little off frequency; those sending slower than others kinda stand out; those that delay sending a little after the initial onslaught; use RIT to separate them. But when they're all of similar strength and on the same frequency/pitch, that's what separates the really skilled ops to grab one and respond immediately...not me. I have enough on my plate trying to master SO2R. But I'm mainly into S&P, thus my topic here.

Looking at the 3830 scores, guys on here like N2SR and N1UR, that have accumulated big single op scores this past weekend obviously have considerable sustained running experience/skills, and can offer tips to you and others interested.

I also see that you were part of LLoyd's KH6LC M/M operation. I'm sure you gained some valuable experience in those pileups. Good luck, and see you in the tests!

73, Bob K7JQ

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K7JQ

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Re: Has "Assisted" dumbed-down contesting?
« Reply #28 on: December 01, 2022, 08:46:28 AM »

Ed N1UR,

Good post and so true. For a little pistol like me, thank goodness for all the runners to keep my interest peaked, and ability to work a lot of stations in contests! Not being "in it to win it", I enjoy the pace, looking to improve on previous scores, contributing to our club's (Arizona Outlaws Contest Club) overall score, and see how I do compared to others in the club that have considerable more aluminum in the air. At almost 77, my BIC ability has become limited, but still having great fun on the weekends.

It's impressive how good the scores, like yours and N2SR on this thread, are from the east coast hams in FRC, YCCC, and PVRC...single op scores of 6M+ points. We have some  excellent, experienced ops in AOCC, but anything over 1M in DX tests is considered a good effort. World-class op Steve N2IC hit 6.1M (2BSIQ) in 43 hours out of New Mexico was far and away the tops in the club. All other single ops were well under 2M, but maximum BIC was under 35 hours. I guess it's all relative.

Thanks to all for contributing your opinions to my topic. Interesting and wide ranging comments!

73, Bob K7JQ
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N2SR

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Re: Has "Assisted" dumbed-down contesting?
« Reply #29 on: December 01, 2022, 09:04:46 AM »


That’s essentially all that contesters do - sit in a chair while playing with a radio. You can glorify it all you want but that is fundamentally it. No need to have a tantrum over it.

Typical response by someone who can't do something that others can do well. 

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