Pages: 1 [2] 3   Go Down

Author Topic: Why are used/older rigs so expensive?  (Read 1099 times)

K7JQ

  • Member
  • Posts: 2602
Re: Why are used/older rigs so expensive?
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2022, 11:16:08 AM »

In the long run, if an item lingers too long for sale, it’s because it’s priced too high, and won’t sell until it’s eventually reduced to the “right” price. Especially true in real estate. If you see something you really want, either pony up the cash or make a lower offer. If the seller won’t budge, move on. No one’s twisting your arm ;).

I disagree. 

It depends if someone (or more than someone) is actually looking for an item. 

Offer up a pair of 3-500Zs for $150 each, and you have to wait until someone is in the market for a pair of 3-500Zs.  I don't own an amplifier with 3-500Zs, so why would I buy them "just to have them?"   

A few years ago, I was trying to sell an Icom SP-20 speaker.  Since the unit was in mint condition, I looked at ALL of the sale ads for that same speaker.  Prices ranged from $125 to $170.  I asked $150.  No offers.   I got lowballed for $120 and the guy wanted me to pay for shipping.  No thanks. 

Same with real estate.  Prices were high during the Chinese flu because buyers were looking for houses, but sellers who had planned to put the house up for sale decided to wait, for various reasons (didn't want strangers in the house, didn't want to look for a new house themselves, etc).  That drove the prices up, because there was less inventory.  If you need or want to move, then you pay the going price.  If not, then you also wait.  Now, prices are high because interest rates are high.

IMO, all that doesn't matter. The seller holds all the cards, and the buyer is basically at their mercy. It's strictly up to the seller as to how anxious he is to sell the item, and at what price he wants to let it go for. Your own example of the SP-20 speaker...you seemingly priced it within a logical used price, and received an offer you rejected. You still have it, and the proposed buyer doesn't. Nothing wrong with that. Maybe the next caller will accept the terms, maybe not. It's all up to you how anxious you are to sell it, and how willing you are to adjust the price if necessary.

Complaining about used radio prices doesn't do any good. You are the only one to determine how bad you want something, and what you want to pay for it.

BTW, I don't agree with your real estate analogy... "prices are high because interest rates are high". Out here in the Phoenix, AZ area, in the last two years housing inventory was low, mortgage interest rates were low (3-4%), and prices abnormally skyrocketed because demand was high. Within days, a listing would receive multiple offers over asking price, and selling quickly thereafter. Realtors and new home builders were having a heyday, without working too hard. Now in the last six months or so inventory is still low, but with mortgage rates near 7% things have dramatically slowed down...houses are now sitting on the market, and sellers are dropping their asking prices back towards normalcy. Prospective buyers now can't afford the high prices along with high mortgage rates. Something has to give in order to get them back into the market. Maybe it's different where you live.
Logged

N2SR

  • Member
  • Posts: 1790
Re: Why are used/older rigs so expensive?
« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2022, 12:44:59 PM »

IMO, all that doesn't matter. The seller holds all the cards, and the buyer is basically at their mercy. It's strictly up to the seller as to how anxious he is to sell the item, and at what price he wants to let it go for. Your own example of the SP-20 speaker...you seemingly priced it within a logical used price, and received an offer you rejected. You still have it, and the proposed buyer doesn't. Nothing wrong with that. Maybe the next caller will accept the terms, maybe not. It's all up to you how anxious you are to sell it, and how willing you are to adjust the price if necessary.

Complaining about used radio prices doesn't do any good. You are the only one to determine how bad you want something, and what you want to pay for it.

I guess we agree - from different directions. 

I don't sell alot of items, but I'm slowly starting to clean up the inventory to get rid of stuff that I thought I would use but since they have been sitting for years, it's time to move them. 

IMO, as much as the buyer does his/her research, so should the seller.  Sell the item at around the going price.  I thought my price was fair, but I'm not going to give it away.  In the end, I would have accepted a fair offer, but that didn't happen. 

Another example.  Years ago, I sold a DXE remote antenna switch.  I bought it, but never used it.  It was NOS, and I advertised it as "never been outside, never had a PL-259 screwed onto any of the ports."  I set a price about $100 less than a brand new one from DXE.  Got an inquiry.  IIRC, I sent him additional pictures.  We agreed to split shipping.  After he received the unit, he called me and said, "it really does look like it's brand new."  I said, "I don't lie about stuff like that."   


BTW, I don't agree with your real estate analogy... "prices are high because interest rates are high". Out here in the Phoenix, AZ area, in the last two years housing inventory was low, mortgage interest rates were low (3-4%), and prices abnormally skyrocketed because demand was high. Within days, a listing would receive multiple offers over asking price, and selling quickly thereafter. Realtors and new home builders were having a heyday, without working too hard. Now in the last six months or so inventory is still low, but with mortgage rates near 7% things have dramatically slowed down...houses are now sitting on the market, and sellers are dropping their asking prices back towards normalcy. Prospective buyers now can't afford the high prices along with high mortgage rates. Something has to give in order to get them back into the market. Maybe it's different where you live.

Two years ago, my parents put their house up for sale.  It sold within 4 days.  They had 6 offers, and accepted the offer of $50,000 over list price.  Fortunately, they had built a house the year before, so there was no issue with materials, etc at the time. 

As I said, inventory was low because people did not want strangers in their house during the Chinese flu, and interest rates remained low. 

Now, with inflation, prices have gone up, because inventory is still low.  But houses sit in the market, because the number of qualified buyers has shrunk or the mortgage amounts that buyers are qualified for has gone down.  IE: the "amount" of house someone can buy has gone down because of inflation.  That is, because of inflation, the cost of the entire "deal," including the 20% down, closing costs, fees, etc has "gone up." 

The inventory could be the same as during, or even pre-Chinese flu.  But people cannot afford as much house as they could before.

Maybe we are also in agreement - from different directions.
Logged
Elect a clown.  Expect a circus.

K7JQ

  • Member
  • Posts: 2602
Re: Why are used/older rigs so expensive?
« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2022, 02:22:28 PM »

N2SR,

Yup, approaching the subjects from different angles, but basically agree on the same outcomes ;).

Buying used stuff is buyer beware. You are an ethical, truthful seller (as am I), but many are not. Personally, I limit buying anything used at $150 max. That way, if the product is misrepresented and the seller won't do anything to remedy it, my financial exposure/risk is basically nil, and I would just  chalk it up to a bad deal and not lose any sleep over it. Haven't been burned yet, but don't buy much used stuff anyway, just maybe an accessory or two. Big ticket purchases (radios, amplifiers) are always new, from reputable vendors with warranties.
Logged

K4BDA

  • Member
  • Posts: 54
Re: Why are used/older rigs so expensive?
« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2022, 05:06:26 PM »

Thanks for all the comments folks.

Regarding research, when I read the reviews here on eham.net I can't find any radio that doesn't get blasted by some. It ends up very confusing.

In the case of the Yeasu  FT-1000MP... some guy in this thread blasted all the Yeasu FT-1000xx's ... so I guess they are off the list...
unless I want to dig into the  radio and do a modification to fix the CW Key-Click issue he mentioned.

I'll settle on something sooner or later and live with the quirks if any. What I liked about the FT-1000mp was it looked like a full size radio... not a smaller size mobile rig like some of the modern radios are today. I may yield on that issue however. Time will tell.

Another of my wishes was to be able to connect it to my computer for display and control...
and maybe have a spectrum analyzer to see what is going on up and down the band...
even though I enjoy turning through the band hunting for signals.

And, it would be nice to find a rig that the manufacturer would still service... but I may waive that requirement depending on the radio.

Occasionally I find myself wishing for my original rig...
a Heathkit DX-20 50-watt CW rig with a hand full of crystals... and a Hallicrafters S-38D receiver.
I paid about $50 for the Heathkit and built it myself. I got the Hallicrafters receiver for $39 from the PX at Fort Jackson via a family friend.
Believe it or not I worked the world with that rig and some wire antenna's in the back yard.

Later built a screen grid modulator for the DX-20 and got on AM.
Still later I built a linear amplifier with a pair of 813's in the final... and lit up the night with my mercury vapor rectifier tubes.
Wonder I didn't kill my self. I was 15 or 16 at the time and having a blast :-)

Regardless, thanks again for all the comments folks!
73's
Will, K4BDA
« Last Edit: December 14, 2022, 05:10:58 PM by K4BDA »
Logged

K6BRN

  • Member
  • Posts: 2229
Re: Why are used/older rigs so expensive?
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2022, 06:41:11 PM »

Will (K4BDA):

A good used MEDIUM sized radio for about $1K with IF and RX only outputs (for spectrum monitoring or 2nd receiver - I attach an RSP-1 SDR) is the Yaesu FTDX-3000. It has a built-in but small multimode audio/Rf waterfall/spectrum monitor.  The radio has a quiet receiver and excellent noise reduction, plus a built in sound card for running digital modes directly from your computer.  Sherwood doesn't like them too much, but most owners REALLY like them (never let me down in the last 6 years) - see the eham reviews:

https://www.eham.net/reviews/view-product?id=10736

and on YouTube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqnrzDS1hwE

Ham Radio Outlet has several used FTDX-3000s on sale right now - and they are returnable if you find a problem with them (i.e. broken)

In new radios, the Yaesu FTDX-10 is hard to beat, but it's much smaller.  Great performance, good waterfall display but not a lot of auxiliary outputs.

Then there's the very popular Icom IC-7300.  Small and basic but very intuitive to use, good performance with some limitations in noisy RF-rich environments.  Available new or used at or below $1K.  And well liked by the community.

You really have a lot of choices at the ~$1K price point.  Below that, options shift mostly to used radios, and you take your chances, as mentioned above.

Brian - K6BRN
Logged

N5ATM

  • Member
  • Posts: 6
Re: Why are used/older rigs so expensive?
« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2022, 11:34:35 PM »

Interesting thread and a very good question.  As with most things, everyone has their own opinion on the matter and I'm no different.  I have done a lot of "buying/selling" of used equipment over the years and owned most tiers of all brands of radios at one point or another until I finally decided which I liked best.  In addition to that is all the other misc and related ham shack gear and some classic/boat anchor stuff also.  Other than a couple of VHF radios, I have never purchased a brand new one, and regret that I purchased those.  I always look for used equipment as new gear is almost always just over priced IMO.  Add to that, I normally go with "top shelf/high end" gear and avoid the lower end and basement level (MFJ) stuff altogether.

All that being said, I have always found it interesting how the prices for older/used gear seems stay high, even as newer equipment that in many respects, far surpasses it.  I always do a lot of research before a purchase and watch the used market carefully before I pounce.  I'm trying to see the "range" of prices on a given item over a relatively close period of time.  Doing this I get the feel for what the "going" price is and also spot the low as well as the stupid high prices are.  I'm sure most of you do the same.

When I see sellers on the high to ridiculous high side, I figure some of a few of the following is going on.  Some of these are normal for almost all pricing, namely #5.  Not all of the list below are necessarily a bad thing.  Note: These are just my opinions and I could be completely wrong...your mileage my vary.  :)

1. They don't know what it's worth.
2. Are very attached to the item and think it's worth more than it actually is.
3. Just hoping for an unknowing (sucker) buyer.
4. They paid full or a high price when they purchased it and are determined to recoup, regardless of actual worth.
5. Adding in the "bargaining" price up front.  (Mark it high...the buyer counters...and hopefully they get what it was worth or more, to begin with.)
6. Just trying to screw someone because they might be able to. Different than #3.
7. Have in there head that the item is now a "classic" and worth more than it actually is.

Perfect Example:  Just a few minutes ago, before stumbling onto this thread, I saw a Yaesu FT-1000MP MK5, MD-100 desk mic, "asking price" $1650.00.  The mic is a nice inclusion but still the ask is HIGH and I just had to laugh.  And yes, I'm familiar with the radio and know all about it.  It was THE radio I wanted back when it was new but couldn't/wouldn't afford it. Last year, I did my normal due diligence, watch, wait and pounce routine.  I got mine for $750.00.  A fantastic price on the low end of the range.

Some gear IS classic, like a lot of the Collins gear, and some gear IS rare, so high prices in these instances is probably warranted.  However, the vast majority of older, regular gear, is in my opinion, overpriced in comparison to more modern/capable gear.  Of course, as long as people PAY high prices for gear, then people will continue to assume it's WORTH those prices.  If we didn't pay, the prices would start to go down to realistic prices.  Oh well, one can only hope.  :)

73
Vince N5ATM / HS0ZPQ
Logged

AI5BC

  • Posts: 456
    • HomeURL
Re: Why are used/older rigs so expensive?
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2022, 06:07:33 AM »

I'm  just trying  to understand this crazy pricing of used equipment.
Nothing to understand, hams overpay, and happy to do it. Just like the hobby itself, there are much better ways to communicate. Great way to make a lot of money. Pluck dem pigeons.
Logged

K7JQ

  • Member
  • Posts: 2602
Re: Why are used/older rigs so expensive?
« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2022, 06:59:33 AM »

K6BRN had some good comments about buying older radios vs new in regards to ease of interfacing to computers and the great technology of built-in panadapters (personally, I wouldn’t buy another radio without one). Not to mention new equipment warranties and current parts availability.

I also like N5ATM’s seven bullet points. Quite intuitive in answering your posted question.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2022, 07:02:13 AM by K7JQ »
Logged

VE3WGO

  • Member
  • Posts: 666
Re: Why are used/older rigs so expensive?
« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2022, 08:48:35 AM »

Older rigs are so expensive simply because people are willing to pay that much for them.

So maybe the real question is:  why are people willing to pay so much for older rigs?   

As already discussed in this thread, there are many reasons, good and bad.  But one stands out for me....  the older a rig is, the more likely it is that it has a more friendly user interface.  "Progress" in the newest radios is obviously measured by how many functions can be packed into every menu-driven knob or button.  The manufacturers prefer that, but users subconsciously (or consciously, for those self-aware enough to realize it) don't.  If enough people dislike that trend, they prefer to buy older gear and prices stay high, it's as simple as that.

73, Ed
Logged

K7JQ

  • Member
  • Posts: 2602
Re: Why are used/older rigs so expensive?
« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2022, 10:19:39 AM »


So maybe the real question is:  why are people willing to pay so much for older rigs?   

As already discussed in this thread, there are many reasons, good and bad.  But one stands out for me....  the older a rig is, the more likely it is that it has a more friendly user interface.  "Progress" in the newest radios is obviously measured by how many functions can be packed into every menu-driven knob or button.

73, Ed

IMO, I don't know if I completely agree with that. Look at the myriad of knobs and buttons on the TS-890, TS-990, FTDX-101D, and to a little lesser extent the IC-7610. Plus the touch screens and panadapter/waterfalls on all of them. They pretty much put all the necessary (and unnecessary), everyday controls at your immediate fingertips, without digging into menus. The more "buried" menus behind the buttons are usually set-and-forget items that control things like audio EQ adjustments, computer interfacing, etc...things that older radios don't have that make current-day operating easier, more efficient, and capable. You do have to RTFM to get the best out of any radio ;).

Now if you're "into" older legacy radios, that's one thing. Otherwise, I don't see the logic in preferring, let's say, an FT-1000 over some of the current offerings. Especially at the high used prices your post is questioning. The newer IC-7300, FTDX-10, and FTDX-710 radios, priced new  between $1K and $1.5K are more capable with better specs than a 20+ year old radio for the same or more price. Just my $.02.
Logged

AF5CC

  • Posts: 1664
    • HomeURL
Re: Why are used/older rigs so expensive?
« Reply #25 on: December 15, 2022, 10:45:06 AM »


Now if you're "into" older legacy radios, that's one thing. Otherwise, I don't see the logic in preferring, let's say, an FT-1000 over some of the current offerings. Especially at the high used prices your post is questioning. The newer IC-7300, FTDX-10, and FTDX-710 radios, priced new  between $1K and $1.5K are more capable with better specs than a 20+ year old radio for the same or more price. Just my $.02.

Yes and now.  Those radios have roofing filters and pan adaptors plus they do 6 meters, but none of them do 200 watts and dual receive like the FT1000D and FT1000MP MK5 do.  Nor are their internal tuners near as good as the FT1000D tuner is.  Plus they all need power supplies which adds to the cost.  However they are much easier to move around than the FT1000D is (which is still probably my favorite radio of those I have owned).

73 John AF5CC

Logged

K6BRN

  • Member
  • Posts: 2229
Re: Why are used/older rigs so expensive?
« Reply #26 on: December 16, 2022, 01:31:28 PM »

Judging from what I see on-line (ebay, HRO used/consignment, etc.)  the older equipment is not selling terribly well and there's quite a bit of it for sale.  So perhaps the higher prices represents estate sales whose authors really don't know the value of the gear or others who need to dispose of it and clean out a closet but don't really need the money.

I recently purchased a "minty" contemporary rig (but NOT in production) for yet another station and was able to talk the price down to something very attractive, because it had been "sitting on the shelf" for three months with no takers.

No doubt there will ALWAYS be specific items, like a certain Collins series radio or FTDX-9000 that are fairly rare and will tend to remain relatively expensive.

But right now there seems to be a lot of used inventory - and as with houses - that tends to push the price down or make prices "soft".  When in doubt, make an offer.

Brian - K6BRN

Logged

K7JQ

  • Member
  • Posts: 2602
Re: Why are used/older rigs so expensive?
« Reply #27 on: December 16, 2022, 02:46:29 PM »


When in doubt, make an offer.


When considering the purchase of *any* used item, *always* make an offer, even if the ad says "price is "firm". You might be leaving money on the table if you don't. But do your homework and be careful not to make it ridiculous, as you never know what's in the mind of the seller. You might think you're insulting him, but if he wants to move it and the offer is reasonable, you might be pleasantly surprised at his agreement. The worst he can say is "no". Then see if you can come to a negotiated price in the middle where you'll both be happy. You'll never know unless you try ;).
Logged

AJ4SN

  • Member
  • Posts: 118
Re: Why are used/older rigs so expensive?
« Reply #28 on: December 17, 2022, 06:10:17 AM »

One of the reasons that I have always built my own gear is that I can repair it, and I stock my own replacement parts. I understand that not everyone has the time or resources to build equipment, but the tech support issue is nice benefit of homebrew.
Logged

K4BDA

  • Member
  • Posts: 54
Re: Why are used/older rigs so expensive?
« Reply #29 on: December 17, 2022, 08:04:49 AM »

One of the reasons that I have always built my own gear is that I can repair it, and I stock my own replacement parts. I understand that not everyone has the time or resources to build equipment, but the tech support issue is nice benefit of homebrew.

Your homebrew equipment on your eHam profile looks great!

Given time that is exactly what I would like to do... for the enjoyment and for the maintainability.

Very good job so hat's off to you.


Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3   Go Up