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Author Topic: Why are used/older rigs so expensive?  (Read 1106 times)

K4BDA

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Why are used/older rigs so expensive?
« on: December 13, 2022, 02:43:03 PM »

I looked at a Yaesu FT-1000 MP rig online and the gentleman wants $1150 for it.

That seems high to me as the radio is 20 years old or more... right?
And, I doubt Yaesu will even  service it anymore so if something goes wrong...
Your stuck hoping you can find someone to work on it... and hopefully get it working right  again.
(There are guys who can do this but finding the right one can be tricky.)

For near that price I have a choice of some very fine brand new radio's... Yaesu, Icom, Kenwood,  etc... all  feature rich with all the new technology in them.

Same goes for other older radio's. They all seem way overpriced to me.
I guess everyone is trying to get "retail" for their radio instead of some quick cash.
Maybe they are hoping for a "newbie"  or a collector or someone who wants to buy their favorite old radio...
or someone looking to save a couple hundred bucks and take the chance on the older rig.

Anyway, I guess I'm going new radio unless I run into a reasonably priced radio in good working order. I  mean, why not?

I'm  just trying  to understand this crazy pricing of used equipment.



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W3PX

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Re: Why are used/older rigs so expensive?
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2022, 03:23:59 PM »

A used FT-1000MP can have a pretty good range of value depending on which options (TCXO for instance) and/or additional filters are installed. You need to take that into account when deciding if the asking price seems fair for you.

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KD7RDZI2

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Re: Why are used/older rigs so expensive?
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2022, 03:33:10 PM »

As long as there is someone willing to pay high prices, prices will remain that high. But, they will fall sooner or later. The number of used  rigs on the market will increase for... demographic reasons... This will create an excess in supply while demand will shrink... and there will be plenty of used rigs for the ultimate ham operator ;D
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W6MK

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Re: Why are used/older rigs so expensive?
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2022, 03:43:58 PM »

I'm  just trying  to understand this crazy pricing of used equipment.

Nothing particularly crazy about pricing of used things of any sort. Think of classic cars or musical instruments.

Design and construction of some older things is not at all available in more recent products.

Much of the production of older radios will not have survived a couple of decades due to poor treatment and lack of maintenance. Thus the total availability of older radios in pristine, and very usable, condition will not necessarily be great.

Yes radio technology in some performance areas has improved but in many areas older technology had and still has great value.

Current transceivers, for example, sport very complex front panels and many-layered menus. Older designs were more often elegant and quite beautiful and a real joy to operate without having constantly to refer to a manual.

As with classic cars, musical instruments, houses, and even people.
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W1VT

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Re: Why are used/older rigs so expensive?
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2022, 04:04:07 PM »

Ham radios are sufficiently complex that it takes study and practice to use them effectively.
With worldwide spotting networks a few minutes can make the difference between easily working the rare DX and having to grind through a huge pileup.

Someone who is an expert on a particular radio may find it more cost effective to buy a replacement than to "upgrade" to a more modern radio due to the cost of learning the new one.
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K1VSK

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Re: Why are used/older rigs so expensive?
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2022, 06:17:00 PM »

Occam’s razor - everything is more expensive including parts if you can find them to fix older stuff.
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KA4WJA

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Re: Why are used/older rigs so expensive?
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2022, 07:01:41 PM »

Bill,
I'm sure you'll find a rig that suits your needs / your application...at whatever your budget is.
But, if you don't mind, I'd like to help you (and others) a bit here, with some polite clarifications?

Not the least of which, you'll need to define your specific needs / applications (no need to tell me....but you should detail these for yourself, before you spend your $$$$) and then look for a radio that meets those needs.
(of course, we just got done discussing the old 90/10 or 80/20 rule....where you should spend 80% - 90% of your ham budget on "antennas", antenna system, etc....and only 10% - 20% on the radio....so, I'll not ramble on about that here!  If you care to delve into all of that, have a look...see some links below for details on these...)


1)  So,...We all know the "value" of anything is what someone (or many someone's ?) is willing to pay for it....or what they are willing to part with, in order to acquire it....

So, if the price being asked is higher than you think it should be, you can always offer less....you just never know, maybe you'll pick up a good rig for a good price.  :)

And, while generically, I agree that some older rigs are overpriced....but, some are damned bargains!  It just depends on what rigs, how "old" is old, and what condition the rig is in!  :)

I looked at a Yaesu FT-1000 MP rig online and the gentleman wants $1150 for it.

That seems high to me as the radio is 20 years old or more... right?
And, I doubt Yaesu will even  service it anymore so if something goes wrong...

<snip>

Anyway, I guess I'm going new radio unless I run into a reasonably priced radio in good working order. I  mean, why not?

I'm  just trying  to understand this crazy pricing of used equipment.

2)  Now, in this case....the old venerable FT-1000MP was a top-of-the-line rig, and in it's day (and still, even today) was a much loved and respected rig....and back 20+ years ago commanded a rather steep retail price new.

The original FT-1000MP came out in late '95 (?), and depending on how equipped, was priced (MSRP) from $3600 to $4200 (most were fully tricked-out at $4200 MSRP.....with a street price of ~ $3500, in 1996, which in today's 2022 dollars would be a street price of ~ $6600.)

Now, if this particular FT-1000MP that you're referring to is the FT-1000MP MkV (very well respected and quite sought after radio), in the year 2000 it had a MSRP of $4200, and a "street price" of ~ $3400 - $3500....which in today's 2022 dollars would be a street price of ~ $5900 - $6000.....and, since it is not only a rarer radio, it also holds it own quite well on-the-air, it does command a rather high used price.

So, asking $1150 is not really "asking retail", it's actually fairly reasonable (in my opinion, maybe a bit on the "high end" of reasonable, but still not "current retail")....unless you're trying to compare apples to oranges and/or trying to base the value of a ~ 20 year old top-of-the-line radio, on what the current entry-level rig costs along with its expected depreciation over the next 20 some years, 'cuz then you might think that a ~ 20 year old radio should be worth what?

$1150 is about one-third of the actual original dollar price....but is < 20% of the original price times the inflation....so, what is a reasonable value versus new?

Ah, that's the $64,000 question isn't it?

And, here we come back to the original premise ---- that the value of something is actually based on what someone is willing to pay for it, yes?

Perhaps download and read the ARRL Product Reviews of these rigs, and then do the same for some of the more "modern" rigs that might strike your fancy.....(then, if you have extra time, do the same, looking at eham reviews, etc....but take them with many grains of salt!)

And, you might see that there is not only a lot of life left in some of these older rigs, but also they might just perform better than many similarly-priced new "modern" radios.  :) 
{first things that comes to mind are the crappy ALC systems in some "modern" rigs....of course, there is always the "watery" DSP NR, etc...and in many cases, sometimes useless noise blankers, etc. of some "modern" rigs compared to some "classics"...of course, anyone out in the country with neighbors with electric fences will gladly trade one of the "modern" rigs with rec AGC issues (AGC activating on the noise pulses of the electric fence chargers) for a 20+ year old FT-1000MP!, in a heart beat...}
Just reminding everyone that while "new", "modern", "high-tech", DSP, SDR, etc. are nice in some cases....in other cases they aren't what gets the job done...


3)  While I personally am not interested in a '1000MP....but a MkV would be nice (and, if I found a nice clean one at a low enough price, I'd snap it up in a second).....and, while would not pay ~ > $1100 for a MkV, some would do so....and, hence the reason that some are asking what they are.

And, since there are fewer and fewer rigs with Class A transmitters still alive and working well, I suspect that MkV's will actually start going up in price (appreciate a bit).....[I could be completely wrong about this last comment....just me rambling...]



4)  Finally, Bill (K4BDA) I might be reading too much into your posting / query here (if so, just ignore this last point of mine here), but I seem to infer a somewhat negative impression you have for a "radio is 20 years old or more"? 
If so, I'm wondering what application you may have that an FT-1000MP is unsuited for?
(I suppose if you were a serious 160m CW contester, you'd want a better receiver....but, that's gonna' cost you more than $1100, too...)

And, further, while some older radios do have some issues as they age...I'd take a 20+ year old FT-1000MP MkV (even at ~ $1100) any day of the week over some of the "modern" HF rigs on the market today...and, there are many folks out there that can service a '1000MP much better than Yaesu.  :)

{heck, there are some of today's radios that I wouldn't take if you gave them to me, for free....but, that's a whole 'nother discussion....:) }


Anyway, I do hope my pointing out the performance of the ole' venerable '1000MP (and the better performance of the '1000MP MkV, along with its Class A transmit capability), and the costs of these radios, etc., helps you out.....

But, perhaps the most important thing I'd like to highlight is that like in many areas of life ---- doing the homework / research (look at the scientific product reviews, etc....and understand what the specs the manufacturer and reviewer are quoting, actually mean) is pretty darn important!   
'Cuz there is a lot more to this (an FT-1000MP) than just a 20+ year old radio.  :)

Maybe just have a read through of the discussion here on "Station Building"....there is a LOT here, but many have learned a lot from it:
https://www.eham.net/community/smf/index.php/topic,128776.msg1194749.html#msg1194749

https://www.eham.net/community/smf/index.php/topic,128776.msg1195427.html#msg1195427

https://www.eham.net/community/smf/index.php/topic,128776.msg1227431.html#msg1227431

https://www.eham.net/community/smf/index.php/topic,128776.msg1221132.html#msg1221132

https://www.eham.net/community/smf/index.php/topic,128776.msg1275560.html#msg1275560


And, if looking for some more discussion on HF Radio Suggestions....have a look here:
https://forums.qrz.com/index.php?threads/hf-radio-suggestions.839022/#post-6366728
https://forums.qrz.com/index.php?threads/hf-radio-suggestions.839022/page-3#post-6367308
https://forums.qrz.com/index.php?threads/hf-radio-suggestions.839022/page-3#post-6367343
https://forums.qrz.com/index.php?threads/hf-radio-suggestions.839022/page-6#post-6378709
https://forums.qrz.com/index.php?threads/hf-radio-suggestions.839022/page-6#post-6378219


73,
John,  KA4WJA
« Last Edit: December 13, 2022, 07:05:19 PM by KA4WJA »
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AF5CC

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Re: Why are used/older rigs so expensive?
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2022, 07:09:17 PM »

In terms of the FT1000MP MK5 for $1150, how many new radios on the market do 200 watts and dual receive like it does?  The ones that do will cost you 3 times that 1150 or more, so if those features are important to you, that isn't a bad deal.  The only used radio with 200 watts and dual receive that you might find for less is the Yaesu FT1000D but those are 10 years older and don't have DSP or a memory keyer.  The Icom 775 goes for more than $1150 and it doesn't do dual receive as well.

73 John AF5CC
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WN4V

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Re: Why are used/older rigs so expensive?
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2022, 11:42:44 PM »

I have given up on finding what I would consider reasonably priced used HF transceivers, whatever the make or model. I accept the fact that certain equipment lines, e.g., Collins S-Line have held their value over the years, but others should not command outlandish prices....As an example, I recently saw a classified ad for a Heathkit HW-8 QRP transceiver and the asking price was $200.00 ! Another example - An ancient Heathkit VF-1 VFO for $125.00 and an Ameco AC-1 (15 watts & rock-bound) for $160.00, and on and on ad infinitum ad nauseum. Enough. Whatever the traffic will bear, particularly for collectors. I have decided to source any HF gear I might purchase in the future from Amazon or RF Signals in India and other sources that will not ask for prices in line with outlandish prices for 25-30+ year old tube gear. I am retired and I have priorities that I must take into consideration before I purchase any ham gear, and I dismiss the argument that "If you can't afford the gear, then you shouldn't be in Ham Radio." I purchased my VHF/UHF station and HT radios  from Amazon and I make no apologies for that. Oh, I have a Grundig G5 SWL receiver that I have seen listed for $300.00 but there is no way I would sell it for such an outlandish price. What would you call that ?
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ZS5WC

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Re: Why are used/older rigs so expensive?
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2022, 12:08:33 AM »

 ;)Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
I would rather pay a bit more for an older rig where I MIGHT have an outside chance of working on , than the new crop of SDRs.
Besides , Legacy rigs like the 1000mP are still superhet radios with analog filtering , IF loop noise blankers and just sounds nice to listen too.
None of that AGC pop you hear on modern current crop rigs.
I know I will be flamed for it, but put a new SDR next to an 1000mp or older rig, and tell me which audio you prefer. Sherwood numbers are only a small part of the overall picture.
Bigger , Heavier the better. I am an AWA member, so hence my steering towards older..
Current Projects: FT-2000 (dsp agc..not perfect), SX-28, KWM-2A, KWM-380, IC-765 (done)..etc.

73 de William, ZS4L / ZS5WC
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KC0W

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Re: Why are used/older rigs so expensive?
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2022, 01:27:23 AM »

 Yaesu was/is fully aware of the nasty key-click problem inherent in ALL FT-1000xx series of radios. They could have fixed this problem for once & all for less than $1 in parts starting with the FT-1000D. The brain wizards in Yaesu's engineering team kept on pumping out FT-1000xx series after series with that horrendous key-click problem. Undoubtedly the worst time to be a CW contester/DXer was in the 1990s - 2000s due to the uneducated running their FT-1000xx with an amplifier on CW.

 Thank goodness these unmodified, long in the tooth FT-1000xx are now (hopefully) breaking down making repairing them cost prohibitive. If you want to give fellow DX'ers/contesters a blast from the past, just run your unmodified FT-1000xx on CW into an amplifier at 1.5kW..............They will love you for it!!!  :)         

                                                                                       Tom KH0/KC0W
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N2SR

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Re: Why are used/older rigs so expensive?
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2022, 02:41:24 AM »

Yaesu was/is fully aware of the nasty key-click problem inherent in ALL FT-1000xx series of radios. They could have fixed this problem for once & all for less than $1 in parts starting with the FT-1000D. The brain wizards in Yaesu's engineering team kept on pumping out FT-1000xx series after series with that horrendous key-click problem. Undoubtedly the worst time to be a CW contester/DXer was in the 1990s - 2000s due to the uneducated running their FT-1000xx with an amplifier on CW.

 Thank goodness these unmodified, long in the tooth FT-1000xx are now (hopefully) breaking down making repairing them cost prohibitive. If you want to give fellow DX'ers/contesters a blast from the past, just run your unmodified FT-1000xx on CW into an amplifier at 1.5kW..............They will love you for it!!!  :)         

                                                                                       Tom KH0/KC0W

W2VJN and W8JI published mods and/or offered kits for the FT-1000 series radios that eliminated the key clicks. 

I don't know of any contester that did not make the mod.  In fact, I made the mod on my own radio (still have it), as well as others in my radio club. 

Tom, N2SR

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N2SR

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Re: Why are used/older rigs so expensive?
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2022, 02:48:32 AM »

I looked at a Yaesu FT-1000 MP rig online and the gentleman wants $1150 for it.

That seems high to me as the radio is 20 years old or more... right?


For near that price I have a choice of some very fine brand new radio's... Yaesu, Icom, Kenwood,  etc... all  feature rich with all the new technology in them.

Same goes for other older radio's. They all seem way overpriced to me.
I guess everyone is trying to get "retail" for their radio instead of some quick cash.
Maybe they are hoping for a "newbie"  or a collector or someone who wants to buy their favorite old radio...
or someone looking to save a couple hundred bucks and take the chance on the older rig.

Anyway, I guess I'm going new radio unless I run into a reasonably priced radio in good working order. I  mean, why not?

I'm  just trying  to understand this crazy pricing of used equipment.

And what options does that 1000mp have?   

My backup radio is my 1000mp.  It is fully loaded with Inrad filters.  My radio has the roofing filter, a 2.4 kHz filter, 400 Hz, 250 Hz in each IF of the main receiver, as well as a 2.4 kHz and a 400 Hz filter in the sub receiver.   Feel free to add up the cost of all those filters. 

The 1000xx series was the top of the line contest radio in the  1990s and into the 2000s (until the K3 came out). 

They were not a 7300. 

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K7JQ

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Re: Why are used/older rigs so expensive?
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2022, 06:28:49 AM »

The bottom line: There’s a buyer for everything. There’s nothing wrong with a seller to start out high to see if someone will bite. It’s up to the buyer to decide if it’s the right price for him. Or if he decides to make a lower offer, and the seller is willing to accept it. The age old procedure of haggling, and if you don’t do it, you’re leaving money on the table…nothing new. Usually if an item is priced low from the beginning, the seller needs the cash fast.

In the long run, if an item lingers too long for sale, it’s because it’s priced too high, and won’t sell until it’s eventually reduced to the “right” price. Especially true in real estate. If you see something you really want, either pony up the cash or make a lower offer. If the seller won’t budge, move on. No one’s twisting your arm ;).
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N2SR

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Re: Why are used/older rigs so expensive?
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2022, 07:27:59 AM »

In the long run, if an item lingers too long for sale, it’s because it’s priced too high, and won’t sell until it’s eventually reduced to the “right” price. Especially true in real estate. If you see something you really want, either pony up the cash or make a lower offer. If the seller won’t budge, move on. No one’s twisting your arm ;).

I disagree. 

It depends if someone (or more than someone) is actually looking for an item. 

Offer up a pair of 3-500Zs for $150 each, and you have to wait until someone is in the market for a pair of 3-500Zs.  I don't own an amplifier with 3-500Zs, so why would I buy them "just to have them?"   

A few years ago, I was trying to sell an Icom SP-20 speaker.  Since the unit was in mint condition, I looked at ALL of the sale ads for that same speaker.  Prices ranged from $125 to $170.  I asked $150.  No offers.   I got lowballed for $120 and the guy wanted me to pay for shipping.  No thanks. 

Same with real estate.  Prices were high during the Chinese flu because buyers were looking for houses, but sellers who had planned to put the house up for sale decided to wait, for various reasons (didn't want strangers in the house, didn't want to look for a new house themselves, etc).  That drove the prices up, because there was less inventory.  If you need or want to move, then you pay the going price.  If not, then you also wait.  Now, prices are high because interest rates are high. 



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