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Author Topic: EFHW vs. random length wire  (Read 1048 times)

KD0VE

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EFHW vs. random length wire
« on: December 24, 2022, 07:46:20 PM »

I like learning about antennas.  I use a 10-40 EFHW for portable and just as an extra antenna at the home QTH.  I like low SWR (<2) on the bands it's designed for.

I find myself wondering what advantage, if any, would arise from using a random length wire with the appropriate matching transformer.  I have space so a long wire, even a full wavelength for 80M, is doable although the height will be much less than optimum.  Since the random wire requires a tuner it would seem you would have greater losses in the feedline between the antenna feedpoint and the tuner in the shack at least some of the time.  I have a good manual tuner so needing a tuner is not a big negative.

So - when or why would a random wire be preferred over a multi-band end fed?

thx in advance to anyone taking the time to share insight on the performance trade offs.
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W7XTV

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Re: EFHW vs. random length wire
« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2022, 09:01:06 PM »

A 40-10 meter EFHW antenna is about 66 feet long, and only works on multiples of 1/2 wavelength.  In this case, it only works on 40 (1/2 wl), 20 (1 wl), 15 (3/2 wl), and 10 (2 wl).  Adding 80, 30, 17, and 12 meters would require the antenna to be 1/2 wl on 80, or about 132 feet long.  It will require a 49:1 unun to match the high impedance feedpoint to 50 ohm coax.

Increase the length of the wire to 70 feet, and you have an antenna that is not random (only certain defined lengths will work properly), and will not present an impedance that's too low or too high.  It will require a 9:1 unun, but it will work on all bands 80-10 meters with a good external tuner and low loss coax (RG8X at minimum).  Unlike the EFHW, which only requires a short counterpoise, the random wire will require at least one, preferably two radials for each band.  Just like a vertical.

Which one you use is your own personal choice.  I use a 40 foot wire installed as an Inverted L, and work the world on all bands 40-10, including WARC bands.  Both will work well if installed properly.
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KE7FD

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Re: EFHW vs. random length wire
« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2022, 10:17:19 PM »

Strictly speaking an EFHW is still a half wave and needs to be thought of in those terms. Since an end fed has a much higher feed point Z than your center fed dipole, you'll need a way to negotiate the difference between 50 ohms and a few thousand. Whether you go with a half wave or a "randon length", you'll need to do something to keep your radio from going "poof" upon transmit with either type. In my years of working portable, the random wire has always been the ideal choice since I can work any band from 80-10. Yes, you'll need a tuner but my get up and go kit has everything I need that fits inside a backpack including a small automagic tuner. Do some homework at Balun Designs technical pages and you'll find a very nice page dedicated to what lengths of wire work best, and they'll even sell you a nice unun for the task.

Glen Roberts  -  KE7FD
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N4UFO

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Re: EFHW vs. random length wire
« Reply #3 on: December 25, 2022, 01:08:24 AM »

And EFHW is a VERY Off Center Fed Dipole.

Center Fed dipole, 1:1 balun  (50-50)

typical OCFD, 4:1 transformer  (~66-33)

EFHW, aka VOCFD, 49:1 to 64:1 transformer (95-5)

So - when or why would a random wire be preferred over a multi-band end fed?

Having tried a 9:1 non resonant wire, an OCFD and settling on an EFHW... about the only thing I can think of is if you can have a very good (remote) tuner at the end of the wire (no feedline between antenna & wire)... which essentially makes it a tunable EFHW where the tuner is basically acting like a loading coil and transformer in one.

Personally, between the three, I am sold on the EFHW. I have one up for 160m and worked Asiatic Russia and Japan on 160m not long after getting it up. (See my QRZ page for pics.) It also works on 80, 60 & 40m. If I didn't have a better vertical wire antenna for 30-10m I might be trying a 40-10m EFHW instead.

As always... your mileage may vary.  :)
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WB6BYU

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Re: EFHW vs. random length wire
« Reply #4 on: December 25, 2022, 07:47:11 AM »

Quote from: KD0VE

So - when or why would a random wire be preferred over a multi-band end fed?



The EFHW has to be a specific length, and only has a
low SWR on harmonics of the base (half-wave) frequency.
Some matching transformers appearing on the web can
have relatively high losses - up to 3 dB.

A random wire can be any length.  Too short and the
efficiency drops, but otherwise not particularly critical.

With either antenna, the radiation pattern on each band
depends on the length and arrangement of the wire.
With too long of a wire, the main lobes may be too narrow
for your operating preferences, although they can give
useful gain if they are pointing in the right directions.

If you want to use a wire on frequencies where it isn't
an integer multiple of 1/2 wavelength the high impedance
EFHW transformer won't work very well.  That's why your
40m antenna also works 20, 15, and 10m, but not 80m,
60m, 30m, 17m, or 12m.


The use of a transformer to match either sort of wire
is a relatively recent introduction.  There has been enough
recent work on high-impedance wideband transformers
that low-loss versions are possible if enough attention
is payed to the ferrite core and the number of turns for
an EFHW.

However, there no "appropriate" transformer that will
match a random wire across a wide frequency range,
especially one shorter than 1/4 wavelength.  The feedpoint
impedance can vary from less than 20m ohms (with
considerable reactance) for short wires to thousands
of ohms.  The standard 4 : 1 or 9 : 1 transformer will
lower the worst case SWR on bands where the wire is
more than about 3/8 wavelength, but will make it worse
on other bands.  G8JNJ has made a very extensive analysis
comparing various transformer types, which may be
worth reading for a better understanding.  Typical
losses are as low as 1 dB on some bands, and may
be 3 dB or more on others, even for the better choices.
Additional losses in the coax and tuner also need to
be considered.

There certainly may be times where the convenience
of a remote random end-fed wire overcomes the
potential losses.  For example, for a discrete antenna,
where you just set up whatever wire you can manage
and make it work across all bands of interest.  That
trade-off is a personal choice, there isn't any "right"
or "wrong" answer.


My preference for either wire length is to feed it directly
from an antenna tuner, instead of using any sort of
matching transformer and coax.  Usually I just bring one
end of the wire in through a window and tie it to the tuner
(along with a good ground).  An autotuner (or remotely
switched preset tuner) at the feedpoint can be used
when that isn't convenient.

And, over the years, I've generally had best results
with a half wave wire for 80m (~130'), partly because
my interests tend to be on the lower bands more than
the higher ones.  I've used wires from 18" to 600' over
the years on HF:  while wires as short as 1/8 can be
pressed into service, I'd suggest 1/4 wavelength as a
minimum length with a good ground system, or 3/8
wavelength otherwise, and overall performance seems
to drop off by 4 wavelengths (a ~130' used wire on 10m)
unless the wire is pointing in a desired direction.
A wire over 3/8 wavelength or so should be matchable
with a simple L tuner using one coil and one capacitor,
which I have sometimes implemented as a preset unit
with a band switch:  it has to be set up initially, but if
your antenna doesn't change often, then once the
capacitors and coil taps are soldered to the switch
contacts, band changing is simply a matter of
selecting the desired band, which gets around the
problem of autotuners not liking to match high
impedance antennas.

WA3SKN

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Re: EFHW vs. random length wire
« Reply #5 on: December 25, 2022, 05:20:17 PM »

Consider replacing the "matching transformer" with a "remote tuner".
But the big question with horizontal antennas is "height above ground".  So how high can you get either of these antennas?

-Mike.
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W7XTV

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Re: EFHW vs. random length wire
« Reply #6 on: December 25, 2022, 05:47:08 PM »

Consider replacing the "matching transformer" with a "remote tuner".

While having the tuner at the antenna is preferable, the cost for many of us is prohibitive.  I find using a $multi-hundred auto-tuner to match a few dollars worth of wire to be a bit ludicrous.  I don't find the additional 1 or 2 dB of mismatch loss with a homebrew (about $15) 9:1 unun to be a show-stopper.  Of course, I measure the antenna system (radiating wire + unun + radials) where the coax connects to the unun, so I know exactly what the mismatch will be.
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WB6BYU

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Re: EFHW vs. random length wire
« Reply #7 on: December 25, 2022, 06:45:08 PM »

Quote from: W7XTV

...  Of course, I measure the antenna system (radiating wire + unun + radials) where the coax connects to the unun, so I know exactly what the mismatch will be.



Might be interesting to repeat that measurement
straight into the wire without using the unun, and
see how much difference it makes on each band.

KD0VE

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Re: EFHW vs. random length wire
« Reply #8 on: December 25, 2022, 07:59:03 PM »

thx everyone. I learned a lot; enough to make me want to add a "random" wire antenna and do some A/B comparisons.  The EFHW is an inv V with apex about 35'.  I'm sure I can get the random wire at least that high at the feedpoint.

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RFRY

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Re: EFHW vs. random length wire
« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2022, 06:02:21 AM »

... I find myself wondering what advantage, if any, would arise from using a random length wire with the appropriate matching transformer.  ... thx in advance to anyone taking the time to share insight on the performance trade offs.

Below is a study based on the assumptions shown there, that may give you some insight into this.

Radiation patterns get a bit lumpy and unpredictable on the higher bands, but still might be quite useful in many directions.

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W7XTV

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Re: EFHW vs. random length wire
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2022, 08:36:26 PM »

Quote from: W7XTV

...  Of course, I measure the antenna system (radiating wire + unun + radials) where the coax connects to the unun, so I know exactly what the mismatch will be.

Might be interesting to repeat that measurement straight into the wire without using the unun, and see how much difference it makes on each band.

Not sure why you suggest that.  I don't (and won't) run it without the unun attached.  A 40 foot wire is not even close to resonant on any ham band, at 1/4 wl in the 49 meter broadcast band.  Unless I could determine that it will be a better match with a 4:1 unun rather than a 9:1 unit, I don't understand what the point would be. 

It could use a few more radials, notably at 17, 12, and 10 meters (although the 30 meter radial is close to 3/4 wl on 10), but it's working just fine right now, and has for several years.  Yes, it's a compromise, but I have room for only one HF antenna, and this is the best configuration I've been able to stuff into my small back yard.
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N0GV

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Re: EFHW vs. random length wire
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2023, 12:21:51 PM »

Random wire = random pattern. Try using an EFHW on 80m on 40, 20, 10 as well --- pattern will change but predictably and you can "aim" the major lobes where you need to have QSO's.


Grover
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GEORGEMINK

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Re: EFHW vs. random length wire
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2023, 02:11:11 PM »

Here is a good video that covers the EFHW and Random length end fed antennas in detail by Bob Brehm AK6R of Palomar Engineering.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lzlZxxUzM0&t=2509s
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N7EKU

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Re: EFHW vs. random length wire
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2023, 11:53:29 AM »

Hi KD0VE,

For me the difference would mostly be that you could do a few more interesting things with the longer length of wire -- so not thinking of a long random wire, but a longer EFHW.  With 80m of wire up, you can make a 160m EFHW and run it on 80m also (and of course other harmonics too).

Just stringing up a long random piece of wire (but not making it the correct length for 160m halfwave) does mean you could use it on 160m and 80m, but doesn't guarantee a good match.  So, without a remote tuner, you will have extra loss in the coax; and with a remote tuner, you have a chance to burn the tuner if you try some random band that happens to present a very high or very low impedance.  So if one wants to try a random length, it's good to check it on all the bands and see how the impedance looks.

73,  Mark


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KD0VE

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Re: EFHW vs. random length wire
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2023, 04:29:00 PM »

Thx.  good idea to just run the analyzer on a new random wire to look for SWR spikes.  Also the list to Bob Brehm video was excellent.
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