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Author Topic: Crozet FT8WW On The Air  (Read 9437 times)

WO7R

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Re: Crozet FT8WW On The Air
« Reply #15 on: December 25, 2022, 09:14:35 AM »

Quote
Sorry WO7R but 50% of the Qs are not FT8.  Just 50% of the Clublog posted Qs are FT8.

A couple of years ago, I put that myth to the test that Clublog data represents all Qs activity and it failed miserably.  75% of the Qs I made CQing for an hour on CW and then on SSB were not stations that upload to Clubliog.  And I don't upload to clublog.  It was over 100 stations on a weekend.  I do about 20,000 contest Qs a year and none of them are posted on clublog.  And this data says that much of that activity is not posted by the other side either.

Sorry, but you misunderstand how Clublog works.

It is quite true that not everyone subscribes to Clublog.

It is not true that such people do not appear in their data.  When I work DX1DX and upload it to Clublog, DX1DX appears in the data.  DX1DX may despise Clublog for all I know; doesn't matter.  The station is there.

Before you dismiss Clublog data on this wise, you have to show that there is a bias towards FT8.  You have to show Clublog isn't a representative sample. 

And that's hard to do.  Your log, by itself, doesn't do that.

For instance, the data goes back to before FT8 was invented.  A lot of the trends visible before FT8 are still visible afterwards.

One I happen to know about is this:  There is much more SSB and CW activity on weekends than during the week.  Presumably, that is the influence of contesting (if one troubles to look at the really major contest days, one can see FT8 usage, in relative terms at least, goes down).

Meanwhile, contrary to your own confident assertion you do appear in Clublog.  No doubt there are many of your QSOs missing, but there are also many that are present.  Every time you worked someone who is a Clublog member, they uploaded you.   So, surprise, you are there after all.  How do I know?  They have a huge "super check partial" file that covers all QSOs they get.  They filter it, too; to make that very large file you have to have been uploaded at least 40 times in the last three years.  So, the vast majority of busted calls are not going to make the cut.  Yours did, though.

The valid objection, if it can be levied, is that because the Clublog set is a sample, that it is somehow biased toward FT8.

For instance, what about those that uploaded you?  Are the fraction of your calls that appear greater or lesser than they should be?

That kind of thesis is also hard to sustain.  Before Clublog, RTTY, PSK31 and a big category they labelled "other" represented digital QSOs.  Both before and after FT8 was introduced, they represented a small fraction of the QSOs.

However, nobody knew they were going to like FT8 more than any digital mode ever was.  And, there was a good year or three just before FT8 was introduced where people did sometimes work JT65.  Clublog never showed it as a huge factor and by all accounts I recall, it wasn't.  Six minutes a QSO was a patience tester and besides, for some of the more difficult propagation, six minute QSOs were a double-edged sword.  Those that work 6m DX know exactly what I'm talking about.  If there was some sort of "pro" WSJT-X bias in the data, one presumes it would have shown up starting with the JT65 "era".   If so, it was very slight.

Earlier DXpeditions that used it had FT8 around 20 per cent.  The large scale ones still do.  But, the smaller expeditions lately have had FT8 fractions more consistent with the overall claims Clublog makes.

All the way around, I have trouble coming up with a thesis that can support the idea that the various fractions between the modes have any pro-FT8 bias or even an anti-FT8 bias.  I haven't ever found any suggestion of it in the data.  It may be there, but it's hard to tease out.

Nor would one expect it a priori.  People use Clublog or they don't.   I don't know of any reliable indicator that the Clublog population is different than the ham population as a whole.  If you can devise one, we can talk about it and figure out how to correct the data.

But look at the data first.  I find it very difficult to construct a thesis that suggests a mode bias of any kind in that data.

For instance, in the "good" side of it, CW has hardly fallen off.  The mode that really took it on the chin was SSB.

If you go by the anecdotes on eHam, you would think that those that use FT8 are hopeless video game players that couldn't possibly pick up a CW key.  But, the data is highly suggestive that this isn't true.  They may put down their microphones a bit more, but that's the main trend the data supports.

The fact that you don't upload means absolutely nothing. 
« Last Edit: December 25, 2022, 09:27:05 AM by WO7R »
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N0UN

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Re: Crozet FT8WW On The Air
« Reply #16 on: December 25, 2022, 09:53:09 AM »

Hopefully he won't make 97% of his 3 week haul with that lazy, computer scripted text messaging thingamajig.

 :)

Merry Christmas!

N0UN

Judging by all the FT8WW DX Cluster comments so far, my statement should have read, "Hopefully he won't make 97% of his 3 week haul with that lazy, mindless computer scripted text messaging thingamajig."

Bwahahahahahaha!

Merry Christmas!

N0UN
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K1VSK

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Re: Crozet FT8WW On The Air
« Reply #17 on: December 25, 2022, 09:56:44 AM »

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Hopefully he won't make 97% of his 3 week haul with that lazy, computer scripted text messaging thingamajig

It's time to stop being a killjoy and whining about every damn DXpedition that won't do what you want.

FT8 is real, it's been a big part of hamming since 2017 and it isn't going away.

You've been working this theme for five years now.  NOBODY IS LISTENING ANYMORE.  You've already won over the crowd that agrees with you.  That crowd may grow a bit, it may shrink a bit, but five years of evidence says far and away most of us have made up our minds about FT8.  Maybe we love it, maybe we won't work it, maybe we'll work it "if we must".  That's all in the rearview mirror. 

It's still half of all ham QSOs as it has been for years on now.  Nobody's whining changes that.

Work it, don't work it, but for heaven's sake stop whining about it every damn time.  It's tiresome.  You're not moving the needle.

All you are doing is annoying people, by now possibly including those that agree with you.

What makes you opinion any less annoying than his? What makes his judgment any less appropriate than yours?

FT8 is, as he said, scripted texting via radio and given how much easier it is than other modes, is quite popular these days but that doesn’t change what it is.

If you can’t work DX on any mode other than FT8, try for a higher bar.
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ZL1BBW

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Re: Crozet FT8WW On The Air
« Reply #18 on: December 25, 2022, 10:07:01 AM »

Does anyone know for sure is he using straight FT* or Fox n Hound???
Tks
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ex MN Radio Officer, Portishead Radio GKA, BT Radio Amateur Morse Tester.  Licensed as G3YCP ZL1DAB, now taken over my father (sk) call as ZL1BBW.

KM4SII

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Re: Crozet FT8WW On The Air
« Reply #19 on: December 25, 2022, 10:22:07 AM »

Does anyone know for sure is he using straight FT* or Fox n Hound???
Tks
He is not running F/H mode. It is regular FT8 with multiple streams.

73
Mason - KM4SII
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K6OK

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Re: Crozet FT8WW On The Air
« Reply #20 on: December 25, 2022, 10:28:38 AM »

What makes you opinion any less annoying than his? What makes his judgment any less appropriate than yours?

What's annoying to me is we can't have a DXing topic without somebody starting a mode war.  I think this forum would be well served if the moderators would impose a strict "no mode war" policy and lock threads when they degrade into FT8 arguments.  The topic here is DXing, QSLing, equipment and techniques to work DX.  Mode wars are off-topic, IMHO.  Just my 2 cents.  --  73 Jim K6OK
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W5HVV

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Re: Crozet FT8WW On The Air
« Reply #21 on: December 25, 2022, 10:41:10 AM »

FYI, logs from last night are up on Clublog.
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K1JX

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Re: Crozet FT8WW On The Air
« Reply #22 on: December 25, 2022, 11:12:14 AM »

Within the last 45 or so minutes, F6EXV spotted FT8WW on 30M CW.  (I think he has inside information...)

I happened to be in front of the radio when the spot appeared, so I tuned down there.  Sometimes being early helps avoid a pile-up.  Ever hopeful.

Within 30 seconds of the spot coming up for me, there were at least four jammers on FT8WW's reported frequency, perhaps to protest him not devoting the entirety of his first 18 hours on the air to CW operation.  Or, something like that.

Is this the "ham radio spirit" I keep reading and hearing about?
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WO7R

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Re: Crozet FT8WW On The Air
« Reply #23 on: December 25, 2022, 11:24:10 AM »

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What makes you opinion any less annoying than his?

His opinion is getting to be like the people who said "get a horse" back in the early automobile days. It's an obsolete argument.  It's like reality hasn't penetrated his brain.

And, it is all snide, snark, and sneering.  That gets tiresome.

He makes the same arguments, persuading nobody.  FT8 is here to stay.  The numbers we have say so.

Just monitoring the FT8 frequencies say so.

If he were moving the needle, that would be one thing.  That would be part of the rough-and-tumble of a real debate.  But, all he does is sneer all the while nothing changes.  So, it's not really a debate at this stage.  The debate is over.  FT8 won.

I suspect that even some who agree with him realize they sound like the people arguing for buggy whips in 1920 as a viable business and that newfangled car thing needs to go away.

I'm sure those buggy whip guys had snark and sneer down to a science, too.  And, I'm just as sure people got tired of hearing all about it then as well.
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VE3NEA

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Re: Crozet FT8WW On The Air
« Reply #24 on: December 25, 2022, 12:53:36 PM »

6 continents are calling Thierry at the same time:

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KD8MJR

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Re: Crozet FT8WW On The Air
« Reply #25 on: December 25, 2022, 01:40:55 PM »


All you are doing is annoying people, by now possibly including those that agree with you.
As one who agrees I look forward to your posts Wayne.
 ;D ;D ;D ;D


73s
Merry Christmas All
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“A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes.”  (Mark Twain)

N1UR

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Re: Crozet FT8WW On The Air
« Reply #26 on: December 25, 2022, 01:47:26 PM »

You guys are right.  This just not my passion anymore.  Time to find something else other than DXing to supplement my contesting activities.  Dxing is dead.  This computer gaming is not Dxing no matter how much this crowd wants to believe it is
Will just have to spend my time improving my antennas when I am not contesting.

Tom, you should think about doing something else with that valuable vacation time.  CW only?  What's the point?

73 to all

Ed  N1UR
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K7JQ

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Re: Crozet FT8WW On The Air
« Reply #27 on: December 25, 2022, 01:49:41 PM »

Due to its popularity over all the other digital modes, maybe eham.net should have a new forum topic (in addition to just "Digital") called "FT8/4, F/H, etc", so all the pointers-and-clickers can talk about their adventures without intervention from the naysayers. Then you can tell them to go pound sand on some other forum topic.
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K1VSK

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Re: Crozet FT8WW On The Air
« Reply #28 on: December 25, 2022, 03:16:33 PM »

Quote
What makes you opinion any less annoying than his?



And, it is all snide, snark, and sneering.  That gets tiresome.

He makes the same arguments, persuading nobody. 

You did the same thing the same way. It’s a trend that is boring and useless and notably but unsurprisingly doesn’t answer my question.
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W2IRT

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Re: Crozet FT8WW On The Air
« Reply #29 on: December 25, 2022, 04:14:53 PM »

So far exactly TWO decodes from Crozet here in two days. Not sure what's going on, but 3-el on 20m and a rotatable dipole on 30, listening with a K3s. I'm hoping he's in stronger at some point but it's not off to a good start here in NJ, and I'm starting to get a bit nervous truth be told.
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Night gathers and now my watch begins. It shall not end until I reach Top of the Honor Roll

Great times are at hand, and soon there will be DX for all—although more for some than for others.
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