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Author Topic: Crozet FT8WW On The Air  (Read 9438 times)

K6OK

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Re: Crozet FT8WW On The Air
« Reply #60 on: December 26, 2022, 10:28:51 AM »

I wish someone else would go to Crozet to show him how a DXpedition should be done.

TY0RU's DxPedition to Benin had a team of excellent CW operators.  They had 77,507 FT QSO's vs 31,120 on CW.  They are experienced and this Russian team has led some of the best DXpeditions to Africa in the past few years.  The reason they had more FT is because with multi-streaming the rates are higher and, like it or not, there's more activity on FT than on CW.

73 Jim K6OK

Can you explain this “multi-streaming” thing you mention? Someone else said FT8WW was “multi-streaming”, and had 606 Q’s in 5.5 hours on 30 meters. With one transmitter, and 30 seconds/Q, the max he could work is 660 Q’s in that time frame. A respectable rate for FT8, but a very proficient CW op working split can log more than twice that rate…over 1,300 Q’s in 5.5 hours. Inquiring minds want to know ;).

Your quoted rates are speculation and assume there's a steady stream of callers to be worked.  Your point is certainly true in contests but not so much with DXpeds.  Many times I've heard DXpeds calling on CQ on CW and there are stretches of unanswered CQ's.  The actual Q counts by good DXpeds tell the true story on conditions in the real world.  They work FT8 because that's where the majority of customers are. 
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K1JX

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Re: Crozet FT8WW On The Air
« Reply #61 on: December 26, 2022, 11:15:06 AM »

Can you explain this “multi-streaming” thing you mention? Someone else said FT8WW was “multi-streaming”, and had 606 Q’s in 5.5 hours on 30 meters. With one transmitter, and 30 seconds/Q, the max he could work is 660 Q’s in that time frame. A respectable rate for FT8, but a very proficient CW op working split can log more than twice that rate…over 1,300 Q’s in 5.5 hours. Inquiring minds want to know ;).

Multi-streaming means that he has more than one QSO going on at a time.  It's like having two, three, or maybe even five radios going simultaneously.  Since the transmit cycles are fixed length and synchronized, that's easy enough to do.

My own observation on the QSO rate is that FT8WW often sends a signal report to a station and it takes two, three, or nine (!) sequences for him to get an acknowledgment of that report.   Often, he gives up and moves along.  At 15 seconds per time sequence, that gobbles up a lot of each hour.  That all would seem to be on the non-DX end of the process.  Lots of stations plain can't hear or however you want to describe it.

For an operating mode that supposedly is so easy that a six month old Golden Retriever can master it, an incredible number can't manage to hear the DX or even call on the right time sequence.  There's a ton of stations just sending blindly without ever hearing the DX.  Obviously, they can't hear the DX if they are transmitting during the same time sequence as the DX is.  I guess this part is no different than CW or SSB operation.

I'm giving myself a 17% likelihood of working this one, on any mode.  Bouvet may well be less likely.
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VK3KTT

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Re: Crozet FT8WW On The Air
« Reply #62 on: December 26, 2022, 12:36:18 PM »

for me ham radio is about experimenting and dxing is about adapting i have not heard ft8ww my chances are small, i'll work him on any mode i can and i'll be barefoot. i rarely miss these days now thats a challenge its easy with 1500 watts. having a super station is no challenge.
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N4UFO

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Re: Crozet FT8WW On The Air
« Reply #63 on: December 26, 2022, 12:41:50 PM »

for me ham radio is about experimenting and dxing is about adapting
Good on ya, mate... Being a ham of 45 years and having DXed in the 90s, I seem to remember when DXclusters first came out, there was a whole lotta complaining & moaning about how "computers" were doing all the work now... No more tuning the bands watching, spending your time doing REAL DXing, blah blah blah... Sounds familiar doesn't it? So I will spare everyone the part from the 60s & 70s about how electronic keyers had changed CW, the components do all the work instead of the operator, blah, blah, blah... Same crap, different day!!!

If these guys could just get over the fact that we're ALL getting older and the world has taken a step ahead while they long for the past. It's tiring and serves no purpose but to vent. Enough. Just chase the DX already.


Now. I'm told the K is high right now... supposedly he is on 30m CW but I can't even hear the EU pileup. And so far I am thinking the only FT8 pileup I have caught was for a pirate. Hint: watching the spotting networks tells a lot about which is which. And that's all I'm gonna say. For those who figure it out, don't say it explicitly, lest it gets figured out by the one(s) and stops and then we have no way of knowing the difference.
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VA3VF

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Re: Crozet FT8WW On The Air
« Reply #64 on: December 26, 2022, 01:05:16 PM »

Quote
for me ham radio is about experimenting and dxing is about adapting

My thinking exactly.
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K7JQ

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Re: Crozet FT8WW On The Air
« Reply #65 on: December 26, 2022, 01:06:06 PM »

Can you explain this “multi-streaming” thing you mention? Someone else said FT8WW was “multi-streaming”, and had 606 Q’s in 5.5 hours on 30 meters. With one transmitter, and 30 seconds/Q, the max he could work is 660 Q’s in that time frame. A respectable rate for FT8, but a very proficient CW op working split can log more than twice that rate…over 1,300 Q’s in 5.5 hours. Inquiring minds want to know ;).

Multi-streaming means that he has more than one QSO going on at a time.  It's like having two, three, or maybe even five radios going simultaneously.  Since the transmit cycles are fixed length and synchronized, that's easy enough to do.

My own observation on the QSO rate is that FT8WW often sends a signal report to a station and it takes two, three, or nine (!) sequences for him to get an acknowledgment of that report.   Often, he gives up and moves along.  At 15 seconds per time sequence, that gobbles up a lot of each hour.  That all would seem to be on the non-DX end of the process.  Lots of stations plain can't hear or however you want to describe it.

For an operating mode that supposedly is so easy that a six month old Golden Retriever can master it, an incredible number can't manage to hear the DX or even call on the right time sequence.  There's a ton of stations just sending blindly without ever hearing the DX.  Obviously, they can't hear the DX if they are transmitting during the same time sequence as the DX is.  I guess this part is no different than CW or SSB operation.

I'm giving myself a 17% likelihood of working this one, on any mode.  Bouvet may well be less likely.

Thanks! Still kinda confusing for my comprehension, but then again I'm not into all the nuances of WSJT-X. I've tried FT8, on my friend's insistence, to see what the hub-bub was all about, and it's not to my liking at all. I'm a CW (and to a lesser extent SSB, RTTY) contester, and I don't even enjoy point-and-click spotting-assisted operation.

I've seen comments/complaints that he's on an odd sequence, and callers are transmitting on that sequence as well. So apparently many others don't know what the heck is going on either ;).

Anyway, hope you have fun and work the guy. At least you won't have me for competition ;).
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US5WE

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Re: Crozet FT8WW On The Air
« Reply #66 on: December 26, 2022, 02:01:49 PM »

Very good  FT8WW operation, 3 streams work is very efficient.
Unfortunately one stream was QRMed this evening by K0STP who was transmitting on 495Hz in the wrong period. Looks like this guy has no RX and no cluster where he was asked to stop.
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VA3VF

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Re: Crozet FT8WW On The Air
« Reply #67 on: December 26, 2022, 02:07:04 PM »

I decoded FT8WW 4 times in total, enough time to call once or twice and that was it, no contact. I'm not a "field of dreams" type DXer, so I stopped calling.

Some observations:

- I was playing with VOACap yesterday, and I was surprised to see how accurate it was today on 30m. Like the gates had opened at the exact time VOACap predicted.

- Some people are getting really stressed out on the air with those on the wrong cycle. One or another may be on the DX frequency, but if I had my way, I would have preferred 99% of the callers to be on the wrong cycle. ;D

- Check the stations calling on the wrong cycle. I saw two that are accomplished/skilled DXers. Enough said. :-X

- I may have only noticed it today, but what with calling CQ and conducting 'garden variety' contacts in a segment that is 'kind of' set aside for DXpeditions and full of stations trying to contact FT8WW?

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K1JX

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Re: Crozet FT8WW On The Air
« Reply #68 on: December 26, 2022, 02:25:21 PM »

Thanks! Still kinda confusing for my comprehension, but then again I'm not into all the nuances of WSJT-X. I've tried FT8, on my friend's insistence, to see what the hub-bub was all about, and it's not to my liking at all. I'm a CW (and to a lesser extent SSB, RTTY) contester, and I don't even enjoy point-and-click spotting-assisted operation.

I've seen comments/complaints that he's on an odd sequence, and callers are transmitting on that sequence as well. So apparently many others don't know what the heck is going on either ;).

Anyway, hope you have fun and work the guy. At least you won't have me for competition ;).

The concept of multistreaming is actually simple.

FT8 signals are generated by applying modulated audio tones into an SSB transmitter.  Pretty much like how CW was generated in the KWM-2.

So, imagine that you apply tones at 340 Hz, 400 Hz, and 470 Hz, each modulated by the message you want to send to the stations you're calling.  (An FT8 signal is roughly 60 Hz wide)  Since FT8 transmissions are transmitted in coordinated 15 second slots, you send all three modulated carriers during the same slot.  Viola, it's like having three transmitters.  If things go well, you can work three times as many stations compared to only one stream.  Stations chasing DX like that.

In addition, in some modes, like the Fox/Hound mode designed into the WSJT-X software, there's some additional features and rules.  One feature is that the Fox (the DX) can tail-end after the RR73 message sent to the previous station a new station's report.  That ups the rate again.  With the maximum five streams allowed for WSJT-X Fox mode, and a two QSO per minute maximum because of the tail-ending process, that means that the maximum rate is 600 QSOs per hour.  In theory, of course.  Not too bad, eh?

One of the things about FT8WW is that he is using different software that allows for MSHV operation.  That's kind of a hybrid between normal FT8 operation and the Fox/Hound operation.  There's fewer rules, for one thing.  I won't go into all of them - after all, Golden Retriever puppies can do this - but one rule is that Foxes transmit during the first and third 15 second slot of each minute.  That's written into the WSJT-X software.  FT8WW is transmitting during the second and fourth slot, presumably to let everybody know that he's not operating as a Fox, so don't you call him as a Hound with all that entails. (haha)

Naturally, there's a zillion stations calling him during the same slot as he is transmitting in.  That makes it impossible for the home stations to have heard him, right?  Yet, many are even giving reports.  How is this possible?  (I suspect you already know the answer to that.)

More than you wanted to know, probably, but at least you won't lie awake wondering about it all.

Thanks for the wishes!  Based on what I heard today, I'm lowering my success likelihood to closer to 10%.
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VE3VEE

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Re: Crozet FT8WW On The Air
« Reply #69 on: December 26, 2022, 02:53:45 PM »

K1JX - Good explanation. And I would say it even proves FT8 requires more skill than CW or SSB. Just observe the FT8 operators who not yet learned the skills. They may be calling and calling for a very long time with zero chance for a successful QSO. But I'm sure if they stick with it they will learn. Just don't give up.

FYI: There may be a pirate currently on 10.131. The real FT8WW is transmitting three streams 60 Hz apart at 345, 405, and 465. The pirate is transmitting a single stream at 458.

Marvin VE3VEE
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KB2FCV

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Re: Crozet FT8WW On The Air
« Reply #70 on: December 26, 2022, 03:16:56 PM »

I got on 30 a little bit too late yesterday but did decode him several times before he faded out. I see a bunch of callers calling during his TX sequence. Do they not see the wall of callers they must be receiving?

I tried looking around on the FT8WW site - what bands does he plan on working?

Congrats to those who worked him already! I hope to add him in the log..

« Last Edit: December 26, 2022, 03:21:06 PM by KB2FCV »
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W9IQ

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Re: Crozet FT8WW On The Air
« Reply #71 on: December 26, 2022, 03:19:51 PM »

Since FT8 transmissions are transmitted in coordinated 15 second slots, you send all three modulated carriers during the same slot.  Viola, it's like having three transmitters. 

Except the output power from the single transmitter will be 9.5 dB down for each stream when running 3 streams. So the 250 watts is now ~28 watts per QSO. It is no wonder that some people are not hearing FT8WW.

The other minor issue is that a single stream can use a class C amplifer while multistream requires a linear amplifier and IMD can be a concern..

- Glenn W9IQ
« Last Edit: December 26, 2022, 03:25:04 PM by W9IQ »
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- Glenn W9IQ

God runs electromagnetics on Monday, Wednesday and Friday by the wave theory and the devil runs it on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday by the Quantum theory.

K1JX

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Re: Crozet FT8WW On The Air
« Reply #72 on: December 26, 2022, 03:35:18 PM »


Except the output power from the single transmitter will be 9.5 dB down for each stream when running 3 streams. So the 250 watts is now ~28 watts per QSO. It is no wonder that some people are not hearing FT8WW.

The other minor issue is that a single stream can use a class C amplifer while multistream requires a linear amplifier and IMD can be a concern..

- Glenn W9IQ

Yeah, no free lunch.  But, there are many people who will say that being able to receive a weak signal is why you build a giant station, right?  Or, something like that.

Does anybody actually use an amplifier designed for Class C operation any longer?
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K1JX

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Re: Crozet FT8WW On The Air
« Reply #73 on: December 26, 2022, 03:51:57 PM »

K1JX - Good explanation. And I would say it even proves FT8 requires more skill than CW or SSB. Just observe the FT8 operators who not yet learned the skills. They may be calling and calling for a very long time with zero chance for a successful QSO. But I'm sure if they stick with it they will learn. Just don't give up.

FYI: There may be a pirate currently on 10.131. The real FT8WW is transmitting three streams 60 Hz apart at 345, 405, and 465. The pirate is transmitting a single stream at 458.

Marvin VE3VEE

I won't wade into the "which mode requires more skill" pond.  No thanks.

But, I think one difference about FT8 versus CW or SSB is psychological. 

On CW and SSB, there naturally seems to be a tendency for most people to answer the loudest station calling that they can "decode." There are always exceptions, like anything.  But, I think that probably is generally true.  I've been at the other end and it certainly is easier to pick out the strongest station.

On FT8, I don't think much of anybody looks at the signal report of the calling station and decides to answer the strongest one.  They usually aren't influenced by signal strength because the software doesn't care.  You're either decoded or not.  There's no "easier" involved.  If anything, DX stations will sometimes notice a weaker or more distant station calling and answer that one.  Or, they'll click on a familiar callsign.  Foxes can even dial in a number for signal strength (actually SNR) where they won't even see stations stronger than that number calling.  So, cleverness may be more valuable when operating FT8 than strength.  Of course, if you're trying to work Asians via the long path on 80 or 40 meters, you need to get over the threshold where the station at the other end can copy you.  (Feel free to ask me privately how I know this...)

The above can either be considered a bug or a feature, depending on your own perspective and what you value in a hobby.

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W9IQ

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Re: Crozet FT8WW On The Air
« Reply #74 on: December 26, 2022, 04:06:04 PM »

Does anybody actually use an amplifier designed for Class C operation any longer?

Sure and some amps/finals have a CW mode switch that pushes it into class C bias. This can be a real efficiency advantage for FT-8 operation.

- Glenn W9IQ
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- Glenn W9IQ

God runs electromagnetics on Monday, Wednesday and Friday by the wave theory and the devil runs it on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday by the Quantum theory.
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