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Author Topic: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act  (Read 1133 times)

AI5BC

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Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
« Reply #30 on: January 09, 2023, 09:59:05 AM »

Granted that’s an extreme case. Amateur radio operators are a minority that is not currently a protected class, and can be legally be discriminated against.
OK Boomer, now you know what it feels like.
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K7JQ

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Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
« Reply #31 on: January 09, 2023, 10:54:43 AM »

Granted that’s an extreme case. Amateur radio operators are a minority that is not currently a protected class, and can be legally be discriminated against.

OK Boomer, now you know what it feels like.

Fill me in...what does being a "Boomer" have anything to do with this? Calling hams, as minority people, not being a "protected class" and as such are being discriminated against is an absurd statement by itself.
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K6JH

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Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
« Reply #32 on: January 09, 2023, 08:32:20 PM »

Granted that’s an extreme case. Amateur radio operators are a minority that is not currently a protected class, and can be legally be discriminated against.

OK Boomer, now you know what it feels like.

Fill me in...what does being a "Boomer" have anything to do with this? Calling hams, as minority people, not being a "protected class" and as such are being discriminated against is an absurd statement by itself.

A minority group compared to the majority of the population, who do not see the beautiful esthetics of a majestic 100 foot tower topped by HF yagis. Thus HOAs create anti antenna, anti radio rules, because as a majority they can. What is absurd about that? It’s the nature of the human beast.

 Just as it’s natural to try and weasel out of rules/laws you don’t like. Ever fight a speeding ticket even though you were guilty?
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73
Jim K6JH

KF0QS

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Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
« Reply #33 on: January 09, 2023, 11:17:26 PM »

Rhetorical question - if CC&Rs are so troublesome, why is it that the hams who actually live in and are therefore affected by HOA rules aren’t the ones complaining?

See - busybody syndrome.

For the record, I live in an HOA controlled community and I am frustrated by the limitations I have to deal with.  I can't have a separate tower, and any antenna on the roof can only be six feet above roofline.  Thus, my yagi is at a suboptimum height.  I did get the HOA's permission to put the antenna on my roof when I moved in, and the HOA has recently changed the rules but acknowledged that my antennas can remain on my roof.  I always worry, however, about what would happen if someone got on a roll, and got enough people to vote to change the rules to eliminate my antennas.

Also, for the record, as it says in the thread posted at the beginning of this particular forum, it's not helpful to say "you knew what you were getting into when you moved in".  In the Denver area, there are some enclaves that allow ham radio antennas but they are not many.  My wife and looked for several years and accepted this neighborhood as the best compromise between my ham radio needs and all the other considerations that go into buying a home including the cost. 

I support the idea of a national policy that overrules HOA covenants for the reasons stated in the proposed legislation, i.e., that it's a public benefit to have a cadre of experienced radio operators and that we need to do what we can to encourage the hobby.  Although I recognize that some people may find the presence of an antenna tower in their view (and yes, I recognize that the current proposal says antennas shouldn't be visible from the street) objectionable, but those same people will be the first ones running to the local ham operator should communications fail.  Also, an antenna installation is a far cry from junk cars in the yard and failing to keep noxious weeds from proliferating.  A balance does need to be struck and I also recognize that HOA's should be allowed some ability to limit antennas.  I am not advocating for total freedom to put up multiple towers equivalent to the Voice America or something like that.

I recognize that there's a balance necessary between these competing interests, and that the proposed legislation attempts to strike a balance as imperfect as it may be.  If I had my druthers, I would change a few things in the proposal.  What I don't understand are my fellow ham enthusiasts who advocate totally against the passage of such legislation.  I don't agree with the statement that if you moved into the area, you're stuck with it.  But you're entitled to your opinion.
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K7JQ

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Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
« Reply #34 on: January 10, 2023, 05:25:37 AM »

Rhetorical question - if CC&Rs are so troublesome, why is it that the hams who actually live in and are therefore affected by HOA rules aren’t the ones complaining?

See - busybody syndrome.

For the record, I live in an HOA controlled community and I am frustrated by the limitations I have to deal with.  I can't have a separate tower, and any antenna on the roof can only be six feet above roofline.  Thus, my yagi is at a suboptimum height.  I did get the HOA's permission to put the antenna on my roof when I moved in, and the HOA has recently changed the rules but acknowledged that my antennas can remain on my roof.  I always worry, however, about what would happen if someone got on a roll, and got enough people to vote to change the rules to eliminate my antennas.

Also, for the record, as it says in the thread posted at the beginning of this particular forum, it's not helpful to say "you knew what you were getting into when you moved in".  In the Denver area, there are some enclaves that allow ham radio antennas but they are not many.  My wife and looked for several years and accepted this neighborhood as the best compromise between my ham radio needs and all the other considerations that go into buying a home including the cost. 

I support the idea of a national policy that overrules HOA covenants for the reasons stated in the proposed legislation, i.e., that it's a public benefit to have a cadre of experienced radio operators and that we need to do what we can to encourage the hobby.  Although I recognize that some people may find the presence of an antenna tower in their view (and yes, I recognize that the current proposal says antennas shouldn't be visible from the street) objectionable, but those same people will be the first ones running to the local ham operator should communications fail.  Also, an antenna installation is a far cry from junk cars in the yard and failing to keep noxious weeds from proliferating.  A balance does need to be struck and I also recognize that HOA's should be allowed some ability to limit antennas.  I am not advocating for total freedom to put up multiple towers equivalent to the Voice America or something like that.

I recognize that there's a balance necessary between these competing interests, and that the proposed legislation attempts to strike a balance as imperfect as it may be.  If I had my druthers, I would change a few things in the proposal.  What I don't understand are my fellow ham enthusiasts who advocate totally against the passage of such legislation.  I don't agree with the statement that if you moved into the area, you're stuck with it.  But you're entitled to your opinion.

You’re in an HOA, got permission to erect a *YAGI* at a “suboptimal” 6 feet above the roofline (still much better than in an attic…maybe it’s a 2 story house?), and you’re frustrated by the “limitations”??? Talk about looking a gift horse in the mouth ;). Frankly, you should consider yourself very lucky. Most HOA’s wouldn’t be so permissive.

When the rules were changed and they let you keep your antenna, you were just grandfathered in with the original permission, and in the event of future changes, you’d still be safe.

With today’s advanced communications, folks won’t be running to the local ham in an emergency. Heck, most people younger than 45 don’t even know what ham radio is. Many people would equate the aluminum stuff on your roof to a junk car in the yard.

And yeah, when you move into an area with CC&R antenna restrictions, absent HOA permission or Federal law overrides, you *are* stuck with it. Whether you agree or not doesn’t matter. You signed off on a legally binding agreement. You always have other options if you want freedom for antennas.

I’ve lived in three HOA communities in the last 30 years, and knew what I was getting into. I’ve been denied antenna permission for a lot less (vertical, wires) than a yagi, but still able to successfully operate with non-visible stealth antennas.

Sorry, my friend, but no sympathy from me for your “frustrations” ;).
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K1VSK

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Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
« Reply #35 on: January 10, 2023, 07:27:29 AM »


For the record, I live in an HOA controlled community and ….I did get the HOA's permission to put the antenna on my roof…

Putting aside the preface that it was a rhetorical question -
Actually, yours is a good example of how many HOAs accommodate modification requests. Similar to ours in that respect. And for that reason alone, you have nothing to complain about.

But you validate my point in that it’s only those who have no business doing so are the vocal critics. We all moved into our HOAs understanding the limitations. It’s asinine to accept those limitations  and then complain about them. And even more asinine to complain when unaffected by them.
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KF0QS

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Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
« Reply #36 on: January 10, 2023, 10:55:37 AM »





With all due respect my friends, you have both missed the point.  We looked for a long time and bought our current home as a compromise.

Given what we had to work with ($$$), it was the best we could do.  And, given that Congress has the ability to override the restrictions, why shouldn't I advocate for such an override?  Why should I accept the status quo?  There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.  And why shouldn't I advocate for something that helps grow our wonderful hobby?
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K1VSK

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Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
« Reply #37 on: January 10, 2023, 12:31:35 PM »

Quote

With all due respect my friends, you have both missed the point.  We looked for a long time and bought our current home as a compromise.
Your point isn’t that elusive.
Virtually everyone looks for a long time before making a purchase decision. And most of those decisions are a compromise in some respect. Nothing unique here.

Would you  want Congress to legislate every neighborhood allow revolving front doors or a windmill just because you like it? You do have that right, however frivolous it might be.
Quote
Given what we had to work with ($$$), it was the best we could do.  And, given that Congress has the ability to override the restrictions, why shouldn't I advocate for such an override?  Why should I accept the status quo?  There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.  And why shouldn't I advocate for something that helps grow our wonderful hobby?

No one has yet provided any quantitative data showing if or to what extent HOA rules stunt growth. In fact, license data indicates consistent growth of the hobby concurrent with HOA growth. So, your implication anything is hampering growth lacks any basis and rather, seems more like a popular but unfounded perception which isn’t a good reason to advocate for Federal legislation.

Personally, I’d rather see Congress spend their time fixing some current real problems we all share.
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K7JQ

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Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
« Reply #38 on: January 10, 2023, 03:29:30 PM »


With all due respect my friends, you have both missed the point.  We looked for a long time and bought our current home as a compromise.

Given what we had to work with ($$$), it was the best we could do.  And, given that Congress has the ability to override the restrictions, why shouldn't I advocate for such an override?  Why should I accept the status quo?  There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.  And why shouldn't I advocate for something that helps grow our wonderful hobby?

I don't know your financial situation, and can't spend your money for you...you make your own decisions where you want to live based on your priorities. If ham radio with a tower and beam is your main priority, buy where you're allowed to do it. Otherwise, expressing your frustrations with the (legal) restrictions you signed on to serves no purpose to those reading this forum topic.

Frankly, I've seen pictures of an 89 foot crankup tower and a 4 element SteppIR beam with the trombone elements on a tiny cookie-cutter lot, and it looks scary with all the homes close to it. I can envision the neighbors with torches and pitchforks pounding at his front door ;).

Don't get me wrong...I would love to have CC&R's allow for reasonable accommodation of ham antennas so I don't have to operate stealth. But to date, it isn't happening in my community. And all the bills introduced to Congress over the many years have gotten the thumbs down, so for now it is the status quo. No reason to think this new bill will be any different.

Again, your ability to get your HOA to allow for a yagi 6 feet above your roofline is something you should just run with and be happy. Most other HOA dwellers aren't so fortunate.
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K1VSK

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Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
« Reply #39 on: January 10, 2023, 05:12:15 PM »

make your own decisions where you want to live based on your priorities. If ham radio with a tower and beam is your main priority, buy where you're allowed to do it. 

A couple of people here have claimed they can’t find an unencumbered home which is a frivolous claim with no credibility.
According to Iproperty management.com, only 53% of home in the U.S. are in an HOA with CC&Rs. Anyone can buy a home and do whatever they want.
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KF0QS

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Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
« Reply #40 on: January 10, 2023, 11:47:29 PM »

make your own decisions where you want to live based on your priorities. If ham radio with a tower and beam is your main priority, buy where you're allowed to do it. 

A couple of people here have claimed they can’t find an unencumbered home which is a frivolous claim with no credibility.
According to Iproperty management.com, only 53% of home in the U.S. are in an HOA with CC&Rs. Anyone can buy a home and do whatever they want.

Well, you just proved my point.  Over half of the housing stock in the US has HOA restrictions on it.  That's literally tens of millions of houses, and certainly, if you live in a metropolitan area that has grown rapidly in the last 20-30 years (e.g., Denver), then the percentage is going to be higher (because the older housing in the inner cities were built when the only restrictions were zoning requirements, and there was no such thing as an HOA).

Again, I return to my initial point.  Why would you be against this legislation?  K7JQ even admits he wishes his HOA restrictions could be rolled back so he could have more antenna than he currently has.  I honestly don't get it.  It obviously benefits the hobby if hams in all residential neighborhoods can operate with reasonable outside antenna systems. 

Please answer the question directly.  Why would you oppose the legislation?  If you don't like specific provisions, I get that.  But, in principle, what is wrong with allowing all hams to have reasonable outdoor antenna systems?
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K1VSK

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Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
« Reply #41 on: January 11, 2023, 12:41:00 AM »



Over half of the housing stock in the US has HOA restrictions on it. 
The point being half the homes in the country are not in HOAs and therefore anyone claiming they can’t find one is either not really looking or doesn’t want to find one.

Quote
  But, in principle, what is wrong with allowing all hams to have reasonable outdoor antenna systems?

Nothing! I don’t understand why you think they cannot. Any ham who wants  to have antennas can live anywhere antennas are allowed. They have a choice of half of all homes in the U.S. to choose from.

There is no rational reason hams should be allowed to interfere with the rights of others by changing rules just to appease a hobby.
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K7JQ

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Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
« Reply #42 on: January 11, 2023, 08:48:01 AM »


K7JQ even admits he wishes his HOA restrictions could be rolled back so he could have more antenna than he currently has.  I honestly don't get it.  It obviously benefits the hobby if hams in all residential neighborhoods can operate with reasonable outside antenna systems. 

But, in principle, what is wrong with allowing all hams to have reasonable outdoor antenna systems?

CC&R’s are intended to benefit the *entire* community, and prevent visual abnormalities and situations that could impact the safety, welfare, and comfort of its residents. Ham radio antennas are generally construed to be an eyesore and possible safety hazard, thus their CC&R restrictions/prohibitions. To hams, antennas are beautiful things, but not so much to the *overwhelming* majority of non-hams. Those home-seekers that are opposed to *any* provisions of the CC&R’s presented to them before signing to purchase should simply go elsewhere. Not move in and then complain about them.

It all boils down to one word…priorities. As stated above, half the communities in the U.S. are not under CC&R/HOA provisions. You have your choice where to move based on your priorities in life. If you’re not too choked up with a community that allows antennas, but you must have them, so be it. You made your choice, and it does no good to complain to us on this forum. Until such legislation is passed to allow reasonable accommodation, and yes I support it, it is what it is.

My priorities don’t include a tower and beam. Strategically placed wires or verticals, to me, are reasonable accommodations. But some hams would want to push the envelope and have a different idea of what’s “reasonable”. Thus the conflict. I don’t perceive any resolution with this new bill.

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AI5BC

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Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
« Reply #43 on: January 11, 2023, 09:03:54 AM »

prevent visual abnormalities and situations that could impact the safety, welfare, and comfort of its residents.

I think you left out the most important reason, property values. Otherwise, I agree with your assessment.
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K1VSK

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Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
« Reply #44 on: January 11, 2023, 09:38:02 AM »

prevent visual abnormalities and situations that could impact the safety, welfare, and comfort of its residents.

I think you left out the most important reason, property values. Otherwise, I agree with your assessment.
Once upon a time, decades ago in another house where there was no building or height limitation for antennas and where I put up a permitted 80 ft tower, one of our neighbors (a Superior Court judge) sued me claiming  property devaluation.

In the interim, his wife divorced him and he was forced to liquidate their assets including the house well below market value and the case was dropped. The real estate broker who sold the house and the eventual buyer both told me the market value assessment included consideration of the “eyesore” presented by the tower. It clearly affected property value.

In another house we owned in  rural ‘horse country’ on a multi-acre lot where I erected the same 80 ft tower, my neighbors helped me put it up. Hard to subsequently complain about it not that they could see it.

Morale of this story - location, location, … HOAs generally are comprised of small lots where neighborhood aesthetics are an important consideration and should be ensured for various reasons.

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