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Author Topic: Alfa 86 problem  (Read 633 times)

NU9V

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Alfa 86 problem
« on: January 10, 2023, 11:38:17 AM »

I have an Alpha 86 driving it with a TS940A. When tuning the Alpha on low plate voltage mode it will easily do 6 to 800 watts out with 40 watts drive no problems. When switching to High plate voltage mode the 86 immediately goes to wait mode. SWR is less than 1.5:1. The only way the amp will stay keyed on High plate mode is by decreasing drive until output is around 300 watts. Does this sound like Tube failure? At the cost of 3cx800a7 tubes I would appreciate input from someone who has knowledge of these Alpha amps than I!
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K6YE

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Re: Alfa 86 problem
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2023, 03:58:31 PM »

Stephen,

You may desire to get in touch with Glenn, AEØQ. He was a super repair/test technician for Alpha.

Semper Fi,

Tommy - K6YE
DX IS and CW RULES
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NU9V

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Re: Alfa 86 problem
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2023, 04:38:57 PM »

Thanks!
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K6AER

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Re: Alfa 86 problem
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2023, 06:08:23 PM »

Both Glen, AE0Q and Dick AU4Q are excellent repair sources. Many times they have the traqnsformers in stock so you only need to ship the amplifier with out the traqnsformer. Saves a lot on shipping.

Have you checked the voltages from the power supply? Do not check the HV unless you have a HV volt meter.

If you have to ship the amplifier, ship it on a wooden pallet.

When were the tubes manufactured?

Whose tubes are they?

Have you looked for obvious burnt components?

Did you check the tube temperature with an inferred thermometer?



Good Luck.

73, K6AER
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NU9V

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Re: Alfa 86 problem
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2023, 07:34:14 PM »

High and low plate voltages are correct according to amps. bar meter. Tubes are the original eimacs and I believe the amp was purchaced in the eighties. Have not done any temp checks but it runs very cool. But then it's only running on low power. Have checked for burned or discolored parts. None seen, but I did find two vacuum relays on the T/R board so I assume the pin diodes have been replaced with this mod.
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AE0Q

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Re: Alfa 86 problem
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2023, 10:22:08 AM »

When switching to High plate voltage mode the 86 immediately goes to wait mode.

First, did it ever work correctly for you?  Is this a recent failure of a working amp?

Is this when you try to DRIVE it in the high HV mode, or immediately as soon as the HV switch is changed?

Is the amp going to WAIT (warmup delay) when you switch the HV, or is it going to STBY, getting a fault?

More detail, please.  For faster response, switch to emailing me at service@alpharfsystems.com :-)

Do you have the ALC output connected between the radio and amp?  If so, disconnect it, that will mostly just cause problems.

Glenn AE0Q
« Last Edit: January 11, 2023, 10:34:51 AM by AE0Q »
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NU9V

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Re: Alfa 86 problem
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2023, 11:27:41 AM »

Thanks Guys for your help. I've found another 86 in mint condition. I think I'll buy it and put this one aside for now!
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AE0Q

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Re: Alfa 86 problem
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2023, 12:24:22 PM »

Thanks Guys for your help. I've found another 86 in mint condition. I think I'll buy it and put this one aside for now!
You're a glutton for punishment, the 86 is appropriately named :-(
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W1QJ

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Re: Alfa 86 problem
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2023, 08:34:43 AM »

If I’m interpreting this correctly I think the amp is faulting on high grid current.  If you load the amp up in low voltage then switch to high voltage the amp is not properly loaded for the higher gain you’ll get from higher voltage. Without advancing the load the grid current can soar and trip the grid out.  I’m guessing this could be the problem.  Using low voltage should cease now that the old power rule changed.  No reason to run any amp on low voltage anymore.  The manuals were written to satisfy the FCC so the loading instructions are no longer valid under the new rules.  No amp with dual voltages are ever perfectly loaded when switched from low to High plate voltage.  Based on the old power rule it would be illegal to load the amp up correctly in the  high voltage mode.  Therefore the manual instructions had to be such.  Today you can now key down and load an amp like that and be legal.  Look at any newer amp, they don’t have those dumb voltage switches.
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KA4WJA

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Re: Alfa 86 problem
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2023, 08:26:43 PM »

Lou, W1QJ,
The Alpha 86 was debuted in Dec 1987...well after the "1500 watt output rule" came in...and was designed/marketed as a "1500 watt continuous duty amp".
So, I always wondered why the had a "low voltage" switch on the front.

My guess was for one of two reasons:
--- 'cuz they didn't want those blasted 3cx800's to get blown up by guys spending hours tuning [unlike the near instant tune of the Alpha 87], so they had a low-voltage switch (and multi-tap transformer design holdover from the old days of the likes of the 76)?
--- or, maybe they anticipated some "upgrading" to 3cpx800's and the higher-voltage PW Dahl transformer, and needed a way to select a lower (normal) voltage?


But, whatever the reason, while some older amps (designed for the old 1kw dc input rules...aka "2kw PEP SSB") did actually allow for fairly decent tank tuning/loading being the same when switching between "low" voltage and "high" voltage, this is assuming the same drive power!

So, Stephen, if you are in fact increasing your drive power, you will of course need to readjust the amp tune/load (particularly the "LOAD")....and 40 watts is enough for ~ 1500+ watts out, so my guess is you need to add more loading.

Best to simply tune it up in the high voltage position....just learn how to tune it, and always keep an eye on the grid current....those 3cx800's are pretty sensitive to grid current...

Of course, we don't know the age/condition of the tubes....so, they could be an issue as well?

Good luck and 73,
John,  KA4WJA
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AE0Q

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Re: Alfa 86 problem
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2023, 06:09:23 PM »

If I’m interpreting this correctly I think the amp is faulting on high grid current. 

The 86 doesn't have a grid current fault, just the warning indicator, and it generates ALC voltage at high Ig levels.  It has a fault for high reflected power, and for T/R timing (RF before being keyed).

Specs like fault protection are a bit nebulous, ETO used 4 versions of the 86 Control Board in production of that model.  Schematics were passed on from ETO to Alpha/Power for 3 of them :-(

The HI/LO HV switch allowed the 86 and 87A to be approved in Japan and some European countries that have lower power limits.  The later 89 does not have it, the CW/SSB switch changes the tube bias voltage.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2023, 06:16:07 PM by AE0Q »
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VE7RF

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Re: Alfa 86 problem
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2023, 10:24:17 PM »

If I’m interpreting this correctly I think the amp is faulting on high grid current.  If you load the amp up in low voltage then switch to high voltage the amp is not properly loaded for the higher gain you’ll get from higher voltage. Without advancing the load the grid current can soar and trip the grid out.  I’m guessing this could be the problem.  Using low voltage should cease now that the old power rule changed.  No reason to run any amp on low voltage anymore.  The manuals were written to satisfy the FCC so the loading instructions are no longer valid under the new rules.  No amp with dual voltages are ever perfectly loaded when switched from low to High plate voltage.  Based on the old power rule it would be illegal to load the amp up correctly in the  high voltage mode.  Therefore the manual instructions had to be such.  Today you can now key down and load an amp like that and be legal.  Look at any newer amp, they don’t have those dumb voltage switches.

I would not want to run a SB-220 at 1200 watts out on CW anytime soon.   Not with it's paltry 500 va xfmr.  I'd  be a bit leery with my L4B as well....and both have inadequate cooling.  Notice on all those older amps with a high or low  B+ position, that the higher B+ position is always 1.414 X higher.   The idea here is when tuned to 1 kw dc input on the lower B+..... then switch to the higher B+... then INCREASE the drive, such that the plate current increases by 41%,  on paper, the plate load Z did not change at all, and the amp should be tuned up correctly.  ( I would just pulse tune the amp on the  higher B+ position, using a pep wattmeter, and be done with it).

Some AM broadcast stations  used the same concept to reduce PO after dark.  If you reduced the B+ in half, and also reduced the plate current in half, the PO would then be  1/4.  Same deal, plate load Z remains the same. By shifting the B+  up/down..and also the plate current (in the same % proportions), several different PO options are available, and all will have the same plate load Z.   I would still re-tune the amp for each new B+ / plate current/ drive required combo.

In some ham applications, max PO is not required, or not allowed.  We are only allowed 750 watts out on CW / FM/ data modes here in Canada.  If only the higher B+ was available, and drive reduced, and amp retuned for lower PO, then the plate load Z would DOUBLE.   The tank loaded Q would also DOUBLE. Tank coil taps are all in the wrong place. uh on each band would have to be doubled.  On my hb amps, I have a 13 kv model 88 switch to change HV taps on the secondary of the big 253 lb dahl xfmr.  The multi kw  output PI tank circuit is independent of the manually tuned, tuned input (NOT ganged for that reason). To run lower PO efficiently, I can either use reduced B+, drive......OR use the higher B+ position, use less drive and plate current, then increase the uh on each band.  IE: use the 75m tap when operating on 40m etc.

AFAIK, on some of the older ETO-alpha amps, the hi-low B+ function was done via a tap on the secondary of the plate xfmr....via an (optional) $80.00  spdt vac relay.  Most folks would order the amp without the optional vac relay..and leave it hardwired for the higher tap.

For other applications like testing an amp, gettering a tube, lower B+ makes sense.   Heath, Drake etc, used taps on the primary to reduce the B+.  That's not an optimum method to reduce B+, as the magnetizing current will increase a bunch. It works though, since you are just increasing the turns ratio of the plate xfmr...by stuffing 240 vac into the inner taps on the pri.   In the dahl commercial catalog, you can see the same thing, called 'PO cut back taps' for AM broadcast station use, to reduce PO after dark.
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AE0Q

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Re: Alfa 86 problem
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2023, 11:37:17 AM »

AFAIK, on some of the older ETO-alpha amps, the hi-low B+ function was done via a tap on the secondary of the plate xfmr....via an (optional) $80.00  spdt vac relay.  Most folks would order the amp without the optional vac relay..and leave it hardwired for the higher tap.

It's interesting to see the evolution of the ETO engineering decisions.

In the early Alpha amps, the big 77/77Dx/77Sx, they used a big open-frame, HV-rated double-contact relay, contacts rated for 1A @ 1,000 VDC (also spec'd at 200mA @ 5,000 VDC), to select the HV secondary AC tap from LO to HI HV.  Very expensive relays, like $300+ each...

Then in the 76/76A/374A/78 series, they used a big, open-frame, monster (3" x 2.5") black phenolic-base DPDT relay, contacts rated 25A @ 277 VAC, to select the HV secondary AC tap going from LO to HI HV.  Cost $50...

Then in the 86 and 87A they changed to a tiny (1" x 1" x 0.5") SPDT relay with contacts rated for 8A @ 400 VAC, also on the HV secondary AC wiring.  Cost $10...  I've only heard of one failing out of 1800 amps built with those.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2023, 11:41:02 AM by AE0Q »
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VE7RF

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Re: Alfa 86 problem
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2023, 09:22:58 AM »

AFAIK, on some of the older ETO-alpha amps, the hi-low B+ function was done via a tap on the secondary of the plate xfmr....via an (optional) $80.00  spdt vac relay.  Most folks would order the amp without the optional vac relay..and leave it hardwired for the higher tap.

It's interesting to see the evolution of the ETO engineering decisions.

In the early Alpha amps, the big 77/77Dx/77Sx, they used a big open-frame, HV-rated double-contact relay, contacts rated for 1A @ 1,000 VDC (also spec'd at 200mA @ 5,000 VDC), to select the HV secondary AC tap from LO to HI HV.  Very expensive relays, like $300+ each...

Then in the 76/76A/374A/78 series, they used a big, open-frame, monster (3" x 2.5") black phenolic-base DPDT relay, contacts rated 25A @ 277 VAC, to select the HV secondary AC tap going from LO to HI HV.  Cost $50...

Then in the 86 and 87A they changed to a tiny (1" x 1" x 0.5") SPDT relay with contacts rated for 8A @ 400 VAC, also on the HV secondary AC wiring.  Cost $10...  I've only heard of one failing out of 1800 amps built with those.

I don't get it.  Why would anybody use a 277/400 vac rated relay to switch HV taps ??   A SPDT  RJ1A / GH-1 would make more sense.  3.5 kv @ 60 hz and 25 amps  CCS.  Way back then, a RJ1A woulda been dirt cheap.
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VE7RF

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Re: Alfa 86 problem
« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2023, 09:46:37 AM »

AFAIK, on some of the older ETO-alpha amps, the hi-low B+ function was done via a tap on the secondary of the plate xfmr....via an (optional) $80.00  spdt vac relay.  Most folks would order the amp without the optional vac relay..and leave it hardwired for the higher tap.

It's interesting to see the evolution of the ETO engineering decisions.

In the early Alpha amps, the big 77/77Dx/77Sx, they used a big open-frame, HV-rated double-contact relay, contacts rated for 1A @ 1,000 VDC (also spec'd at 200mA @ 5,000 VDC), to select the HV secondary AC tap from LO to HI HV.  Very expensive relays, like $300+ each...

Then in the 76/76A/374A/78 series, they used a big, open-frame, monster (3" x 2.5") black phenolic-base DPDT relay, contacts rated 25A @ 277 VAC, to select the HV secondary AC tap going from LO to HI HV.  Cost $50...

Then in the 86 and 87A they changed to a tiny (1" x 1" x 0.5") SPDT relay with contacts rated for 8A @ 400 VAC, also on the HV secondary AC wiring.  Cost $10...  I've only heard of one failing out of 1800 amps built with those.

I don't get it.  Why would anybody use a 277/400 v rated relay to switch HV taps ??   A SPDT  RJ1A / GH-1 would make more sense.  3.5 kv @ 60 hz and 25 amps  CCS.  Way back then, a RJ1A woulda been dirt cheap. Then u have the option of either tap, when coil de-energized.  They come in 12vdc, 26.5 vdc and also 115 vdc coil voltages.
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