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Author Topic: Adding Ladder Line on to Coax ?  (Read 691 times)

KA4WJA

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Re: Adding Ladder Line on to Coax ?
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2023, 09:12:12 AM »

Randy,
Okay on all.
And, I do wish you luck.

And, if it took 15 years before they chewed on the cable, maybe it was just one seriously hungry squirrel!  hi hi

It's an off brand LMR400.  They all indicate a PE jacket.  I really can't complain, it's been in use 15 years or so. Mostly my fault for leaving some excess looped up for them to sit on.

But, for everyone else's benefit:
"Off brand" LMR-400 isn't LMR-400 at all....it's simply a generic, unknown coax, of some center conductor, some foam dielectric, some shielding, and some jacket...

As Randy says, his "off brand" cable "indicates" a PE jacket, but we don't know if all such "off brand" coax will have the same (nor what the properties of the dielectric are, vel factor, etc.).

In Randy's application (a resonant 75m dipole), these are NOT critical factors, and for most hams "any old coax" will do just fine....so, I'm not nit-picking here.
Just want to be clear that for VHF/UHF use (where most will use LMR-type cabling) if buying off-brand cable, look closely at its guaranteed specs and to see if it's been sweep-tested, etc..



Any way, Randy, good luck and have fun pulling 300' of LMR cabling thru the conduit....use a Chinese-finger-type pull attachment....and use wire lube, it's messy, but it works!


73,
John,  KA4WJA
« Last Edit: January 13, 2023, 09:22:19 AM by KA4WJA »
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KM4AH

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Re: Adding Ladder Line on to Coax ?
« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2023, 10:03:52 AM »

I pulled this threw it.  Lag bolted an idler pulley on to the side of the pole and pulled it with a ATV .
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KA4WJA

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Re: Adding Ladder Line on to Coax ?
« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2023, 02:10:35 PM »

Randy,
Congrats!
But, damn you got guts man...
I pulled this threw it.  Lag bolted an idler pulley on to the side of the pole and pulled it with a ATV .
LMR-400 is only rated at 160lbs tensile strength....which is about as hard as most folks can pull, and about "one hard grunt" with one of my arms....

And, you used an ATV to pull the coax?
If this was smaller conduit, that's taking a risk....if the force used exceeded the cable's strength, it could damage the cable....or even tear it apart...

But, congrats!  :)

73,
John,  KA4WJA
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KM4AH

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Re: Adding Ladder Line on to Coax ?
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2023, 03:11:43 PM »

Randy,
Congrats!
But, damn you got guts man...
I pulled this threw it.  Lag bolted an idler pulley on to the side of the pole and pulled it with a ATV .
LMR-400 is only rated at 160lbs tensile strength....which is about as hard as most folks can pull, and about "one hard grunt" with one of my arms....

And, you used an ATV to pull the coax?
If this was smaller conduit, that's taking a risk....if the force used exceeded the cable's strength, it could damage the cable....or even tear it apart...

But, congrats!  :)

73,
John,  KA4WJA


Yeah, I thought about that. But, it has worked fine for years . To the point I disregard negative comments about off brand LMR 400.
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KU3X

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Re: Adding Ladder Line on to Coax ?
« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2023, 07:31:37 AM »

You can run parallel feeders and not have an impedance or matching issue if you cut the parallel feeders in 1/2 wave length intervals. Let's say your dipole is resonant at 3700 khz. So the length of feeders, whether it's 450 or even 600 ohm, the formula would be the same : 246/3.7 x VF.
246/3.7 = 66.49 ft x .92 = 61.17 feet
If your antenna is actually 50 ohm X=0, (which is highly unlikely) connect the feeders to the dipole and the 50 ohms x=0 is what you will read at the other end of the parallel feeders. No matching network needed. No run your coax the rest of the way to the station.
Barry, KU3X
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W9IQ

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Re: Adding Ladder Line on to Coax ?
« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2023, 08:06:18 AM »

You can run parallel feeders and not have an impedance or matching issue if you cut the parallel feeders in 1/2 wave length intervals. Let's say your dipole is resonant at 3700 khz. So the length of feeders, whether it's 450 or even 600 ohm, the formula would be the same : 246/3.7 x VF.
246/3.7 = 66.49 ft x .92 = 61.17 feet

Your were correct in your written description but your formula is for a 1/4 wavelength antenna element. A better formula would be:

Length in Feet = (492.13 * VF) / MHz

But keep in mind that 1/2 wavelength of any parallel line or coax becomes more lossy as the frequency is decreased. The result is not only lost signal but also an imperfect impedance transformation. As an example, with Wireman 551 on 3.7 MHz with a 50+j0 ohm load, the loss will be 1.1 dB, the input impedance will be 64-j0.16 and the input SWR50 will be 1.3.

The same electrical length of LMR-400 would have a loss of only 0.3 dB in the above example.

No matching network needed. No run your coax the rest of the way to the station.

But a good current balun/common mode choke at the junction is advisable.

- Glenn W9IQ
« Last Edit: January 14, 2023, 08:14:25 AM by W9IQ »
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- Glenn W9IQ

God runs electromagnetics on Monday, Wednesday and Friday by the wave theory and the devil runs it on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday by the Quantum theory.

KU3X

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Re: Adding Ladder Line on to Coax ?
« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2023, 10:37:00 AM »

OOPS ! Sorry about that. Why I typed a quarter wave I have no idea?

Losses? I just ran 1/2 wave of generic 450 at 3700 khz through Transmission Line Details and it came up with a .245 db loss.....what am I missing?
Barry

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W9IQ

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Re: Adding Ladder Line on to Coax ?
« Reply #22 on: January 14, 2023, 10:42:30 AM »

OOPS ! Sorry about that. Why I typed a quarter wave I have no idea?

Losses? I just ran 1/2 wave of generic 450 at 3700 khz through Transmission Line Details and it came up with a .245 db loss.....what am I missing?
Barry

Barry,

I suspect that is the matched line line at 119.73 feet. Try it again with a 50 ohm load.

- Glenn W9IQ
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- Glenn W9IQ

God runs electromagnetics on Monday, Wednesday and Friday by the wave theory and the devil runs it on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday by the Quantum theory.

KU3X

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Re: Adding Ladder Line on to Coax ?
« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2023, 10:53:20 AM »

I did say the load was R=50 X = 0 and it came out to .243 db. I just did it again and this time I used my good eye. Hi Hi
Now I ran LMR 400 at 1/2 wave and it came out to .268 db.
Try it and let me know what I did wrong. Maybe I am missing something? I am not saying you are wrong.

Keep in mind, I just answered the question from the original post and did not suggest the that one changes to parallel feeders. The only benefit is that parallel feeders cost less. There is no other benefit.

Barry
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WB6BYU

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Re: Adding Ladder Line on to Coax ?
« Reply #24 on: January 14, 2023, 10:57:34 AM »

Quote from: KU3X

Losses? I just ran 1/2 wave of generic 450 at 3700 khz through Transmission Line Details and it came up with a .245 db loss.....what am I missing?



First, it does require that you use a 50 ohm load, and
choose the proper feedline type.  The old ARRL
"generic" loss values for open wire line were rather
optimistic - it looks suspiciously like they ran the
calculations using the resistance of a single wire
rather than two wires.  That's important, as wire
resistance is the primary loss factor at HF (at least
with air or polyethylene insulation).

Types with CopperWeld® conductors will have higher
losses on the lower bands than for pure copper, due
to the copper coating being to thin to keep the RF
out of the steel core.  And that effect is particularly
bad with stranded CopperWeld®, where the effective
copper thickness is that of a single strand.


Meanwhile, Owen Duffy's Transmission Line Loss
Calculator
may be more accurate than TLD for open
wire lines - they use different formulas for the loss
calculations.  While I'm certainly not in a position
to explain which is better than the other, some of the
plots I've seen show TLLC to map more closely to
measured results.


With a 50 ohm load, TLLC shows 120' of Wireman 551
with a loss of 0.47 dB at 3.7 MHz, and an impedance
of 55 ohms.  (The matched line loss is 0.12 dB.)

W9IQ

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Re: Adding Ladder Line on to Coax ?
« Reply #25 on: January 14, 2023, 11:39:40 AM »

I did say the load was R=50 X = 0 and it came out to .243 db. I just did it again and this time I used my good eye. Hi Hi

I see that you used "generic" 450 ohm ladder line while I used Wireman 551. There is quite a bit of difference in wire gauge between those two models (18 vs 12). There is also an impedance difference. Those factors account for the difference in the results.

- Glenn W9IQ
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- Glenn W9IQ

God runs electromagnetics on Monday, Wednesday and Friday by the wave theory and the devil runs it on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday by the Quantum theory.
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