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Author Topic: High SWR at radio even when a 1:1 match is achieved with the external tuner  (Read 659 times)

VA3WNO

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Hi Elmers,

Having blown the finals of my FT-3000 twice, I have been trying to identify the possible cause for the issue.

My current setup looks like this:
Radio->SWR bridge (for testing purposes)->Amp (AL-80B) -> Tuner (Palstar)-> Antenna (Hustler vertical).

Antenna system works as intended with the SWR in the expected range when connected directly to the radio.

Linking in the amp and the tuner - even when I bypass them - leads to a slightly higher SWR as seen near the radio.

But here is the main issue, from what I can see. I can use the Palstar tuner to get a 1:1 match - but I am seeing a higher SWR such as 2:1 at the radio. This also tends to increase with greater power - even though I can obtain a 1:1 match with the tuner.

This, I think, might be the primary issue. What could be the cause/s and the solution/s?

Thanks for your insights and help!

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AC2EU

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    • McVey Electronics

bad antenna switch relay in the amp?
loose /corroded connections?
waterlogged cables?
Also ,shouldn't the FT3000 fold back and protect itself?

WA2EIO

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 I agree that the rig should fold back power to protect the finals.
Is the amp new, or used.   Is it possible that its input circuitry is causing problems with the rig?
Also, you said increasing power will cause the SWR to increase.   Do you mean increasing the power from the rig to the amp?
« Last Edit: January 14, 2023, 06:29:22 PM by WA2EIO »
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WB6BYU

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    • Practical Antennas

First verify that the power/SWR meter calibration is correct for
both the meters (in the radio and in the tuner).  There are usually
two steps:  first, a trimmer capacitor or similar at the SWR detector
that is adjusted for minimum reflected power into a good 50 ohm
dummy load.  Second, the power sensitivity settings for each
power range (forward and reverse) need to be calibrated against
a known standard.

If you get the same readings on both when the radio is connected
directly to the tuner (rather than through the amp), then that likely
isn't your problem.  But you may need to use different power

Tuning up at too low of a power can also cause such a problem,
due to the forward voltage drop across the diode detector.  I see this
sometimes with QRP rigs, where the reflected power level is too low to
get a good reflected indication if the output is reduced, and the SWR
appears to increase with power because the reflected power reading
becomes more accurate.  This might be the case if you are using the
power meter in the tuner on the high power range (as would be the
case when using the amp), as it might not register reflected power
properly at lower levels, so the SWR would look better than it
actually is.  But the meter in the radio should still give an accurate
indication.


Otherwise a likely cause is that the path through the amp in bypass
mode isn't a perfect 50 ohms impedance.  That may vary with
frequency, and some amps will be better than others.

The same could if the extra jumper cable you use to go through the
amp isn't 50 ohms:  I had a jumper cable of RG-59 (75 ohms)
that I got confused with RG-8X (they are the same diameter) that
changed the SWR.  Again, the difference will be highest on the higher
bands.


When the amp is actually in use, the SWR seen by the rig is that
of the input to the amplifier, and should only be slightly affected
by the settings on the tuner (if at all).


Edited because I just noticed this part:
Quote

Linking in the amp and the tuner - even when I bypass them - leads to a slightly higher SWR as seen near the radio.



So the antenna has a low SWR when connected directly to the
radio?  Does that change with the power level?

If so, do you actually need the tuner at all?

That also means that there probably are at least 2 different
patch cables added into the mix if you are adding both the
tuner and the amp at the same time.

A small change in SWR going through an amp or tuner in
bypass mode isn't unexpected - they often aren't designed
for a clean 50 ohm path (especially on higher frequencies).


When in doubt, adjust the tuner for lowest SWR at the radio
if you are operating with the amp bypassed.  That should
account for any variation in the RF path through the
equipment.

When using the amp, adjust the tuner for minimum SWR as
seen at the amp.  The SWR seen by the rig is determined
by the input circuitry of the amp in that case, not by the
setting of the antenna tuner.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2023, 07:00:16 PM by WB6BYU »
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KA4WJA

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Wiroshana,
You've got some good ideas here already....and, I won't clog things up too much...
My first thoughts are, the problem is:  in the amp...and/or in the tuner...and/or the coax jumpers/connectors...

But, I'm looking at the fact that you've "blown the finals" on your FTdx-3000, twice?
And, have higher than should be SWR at the radio?

And, wondering if these two issues are separate / unrelated?  Or are now related, as one caused the other?
I mean, they very well could be....could be bad coax jumpers, bad/intermittent coax connectors, weird/excessive common-mode, etc..
Could be bad amp relay contacts, either just typical MFJ quality, or caused by tube flashover / internal amp arcs?

It's the "blowing finals" that concerns me, especially twice?  (I've run my rigs into high VSWR's quite often and now after about 45 years of use, they're still going....just normal 12vdc Motorola bipolar transistors...)

I'm not sure about the AL-80b (but suspect someone here has experience with it), but you know a tube flash-over, or one of tank caps arcing, etc. could throw a high-voltage spike into the amp input (tube cathode), and "poof" there goes your FTdx-3000's PA transistors.
So, while my first questions would be about your coax jumpers and connectors, my very next question would be, did you blow the FTdx-3000 finals when using the amp or barefoot?

Next, would be what Palstar tuner?
If it's one of their "auto-tuners", that would be another quick clue....as they are notorious for trying to re-tune in the middle of transmissions (especially if subjected to high-common mode)...which could cause some amp arcs or flashovers.

Of course, I'd also ask why?
Why do you need the Palstar tuner?  The amp could certainly tune into what ever slight SWR your 6BTV shows when you're off freq from where it is adjusted for, yes? 

Also, even it is a manual Palstar tuner, if it's a roller-inductor tuner they also have a bad habit of intermittent contact of the roller inductor....which can raise your VSWR for a quick instant --- causing a quick arc in the amp's tank circuit, etc...
So...



So, if it were me....I'd scrap the unneeded tuner, change out all your coax jumpers, check and clean the AL-80b's relay....and check (re-adjust) the AL-80b's input tuning on each band....and also have a VERY close look inside the AL-80b and examine for arc's on the caps, etc...(being that we are not there, there isn't a whole more I can think of at the moment to add)

Also, it would be good to know the brand and age of the 3-500z....old Amperx and Eimac's tend to last decades without issue, but the "new" 3-500zg's etc. (those made in China) have much shorter life spans.


Again, others have given you some good ideas....I'm just looking a bit outside the box, and seeking some more info from you to better narrow down the problem....especially how does the system work when using a dummy load?

(btw, if you were in Florida, etc....a close lightning strike can also be a source of blown finals, but in Canada? I don't think you guys get enough strong lightning for that to be a consideration...)

Good luck and 73,
John,  KA4WJA
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AI5BC

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You have a cable issue.
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VA3WNO

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If you get the same readings on both when the radio is connected
directly to the tuner (rather than through the amp), then that likely
isn't your problem. 

The SWR at the radio and at the external tuner are mostly congruent. If I use the external tuner to match to 1:1, the same measurement will be visible at the radio end as well. This makes me thing the issue is with the amp. If I run the amp and use the external ATU to get a good match, the SWR at the radio end will remain somewhat elevated.


So the antenna has a low SWR when connected directly to the
radio?  Does that change with the power level?

If so, do you actually need the tuner at all?


The tuner is needed because of the variability in SWR across the band. The lower end of 40m is around 1.2:1 but the higher end is around 3.2:1 which necessitates the tuner. There is a slight increase in SWR with QRO.

When in doubt, adjust the tuner for lowest SWR at the radio
if you are operating with the amp bypassed.  That should
account for any variation in the RF path through the
equipment.

When using the amp, adjust the tuner for minimum SWR as
seen at the amp.  The SWR seen by the rig is determined
by the input circuitry of the amp in that case, not by the
setting of the antenna tuner.

Great point. Adjusting the SWR seen at the amp, however, leads to to plate/load settings going out of whack, and the SWR seen at the external ATU also increasing tremendously.
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VA3WNO

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And, wondering if these two issues are separate / unrelated?  Or are now related, as one caused the other?
I mean, they very well could be....could be bad coax jumpers, bad/intermittent coax connectors, weird/excessive common-mode, etc..
Could be bad amp relay contacts, either just typical MFJ quality, or caused by tube flashover / internal amp arcs?

It's the "blowing finals" that concerns me, especially twice?  (I've run my rigs into high VSWR's quite often and now after about 45 years of use, they're still going....just normal 12vdc Motorola bipolar transistors...)

They might not be related - but I thought it odd that the radio sees a high SWR when using the amp although the external ATU is matched to 1:1.


Quote
I'm not sure about the AL-80b (but suspect someone here has experience with it), but you know a tube flash-over, or one of tank caps arcing, etc. could throw a high-voltage spike into the amp input (tube cathode), and "poof" there goes your FTdx-3000's PA transistors.
So, while my first questions would be about your coax jumpers and connectors, my very next question would be, did you blow the FTdx-3000 finals when using the amp or barefoot?

The first thing I checked were the coax jumpers. I have made and inserted new ones throughout.
I think you might be right about the issue being with the amp. Both times the finals blew I was using the amp. And each time, there was a power fluctuation on the meter before the finals died. BTW I have an ARB-704 between the radio and the amp.

Quote
Next, would be what Palstar tuner?
If it's one of their "auto-tuners", that would be another quick clue....as they are notorious for trying to re-tune in the middle of transmissions (especially if subjected to high-common mode)...which could cause some amp arcs or flashovers.

AT2KD - so not an auto tuner.

Quote
Of course, I'd also ask why?
Why do you need the Palstar tuner?  The amp could certainly tune into what ever slight SWR your 6BTV shows when you're off freq from where it is adjusted for, yes? 

The VSWR varies quite a bit. The CW end of 40m is close to 1.2:1 but the SSB end is 3:1. Hence the need for the tuner.

Quote
So, if it were me....I'd scrap the unneeded tuner, change out all your coax jumpers, check and clean the AL-80b's relay....and check (re-adjust) the AL-80b's input tuning on each band....and also have a VERY close look inside the AL-80b and examine for arc's on the caps, etc...(being that we are not there, there isn't a whole more I can think of at the moment to add)

Also, it would be good to know the brand and age of the 3-500z....old Amperx and Eimac's tend to last decades without issue, but the "new" 3-500zg's etc. (those made in China) have much shorter life spans.

Yes, I think I will get some help to check the amp. The amp is an Ameritron but an older version - i.e. pre MFJ's acquisition of Ameritron.

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AE9DX

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Having had the same problem in the past, I tend to agree with the bad jumper theory. At least that's what I found in the same situation. Also, if your antennas are resonant, scrap the tuner. It's just one more thing thrown into the mix that's not needed. I had the same tuner, eliminated it and the internal tuners in the radios were well able to handle anything that was needed.  Best of luck!
73
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AI5BC

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The first thing I checked were the coax jumpers. I have made and inserted new ones throughout.
Do you even know how to make or check jumpers? Did you check each jumper with a dumb load and transmitter connected? Or sweep them with an analyzer. Either method would isolate the problem quickly.
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WA3SKN

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Step 1... Do you have a known good dummy load?

-Mike.

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WA2EIO

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Having had the same problem in the past, I tend to agree with the bad jumper theory. At least that's what I found in the same situation. Also, if your antennas are resonant, scrap the tuner. It's just one more thing thrown into the mix that's not needed. I had the same tuner, eliminated it and the internal tuners in the radios were well able to handle anything that was needed.  Best of luck!
73

But a tuner may still be needed for the band edges (He reports 3:1 on SSB on 40)  when using the amp.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2023, 09:02:43 AM by WA2EIO »
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K4JJL

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Having blown the finals of my FT-3000 twice, I have been trying to identify the possible cause for the issue.

My current setup looks like this:
Radio->SWR bridge (for testing purposes)->Amp (AL-80B) -> Tuner (Palstar)-> Antenna (Hustler vertical).

Isn't an FT-3000 a 2m radio?  The AL-80B tuned input won't go that high.
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WA3SKN

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FTM300DR is a 2m/70cm rig.
FT-DX3000 is a HF+6m rig.  I will assume your ft3000 is actually a FT-DX3000 (and a good radio).
And you really should be testing with a known good dummy load.

-Mike.
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AI5BC

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This is extremely easy to troubleshoot. Beginner stuff. OP you need to test all your jumpers, and you likely have everything you need assuming your SWR bridge has a dumb load built into it. If not get a dumb load and for this testing, you can make it yourself from a resistor network.

Remove all your jumpers. If you made your own dumb load, set your radio for low power, 5 watts is more than enough, FM modulation, in the 160 or 80-meter band. Connect jumper under test to the TX Out port on the radio and terminate with the dumb load. While monitoring your radio SWR meter, key the mic. The SWR meter should not move or very little deflection. Repeat for each jumper. 
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