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Author Topic: Random questions  (Read 779 times)

K0UA

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Re: Random questions
« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2023, 11:01:47 PM »

Everyone has their take on things. I choose to answer only one question. This is the one about hearing our neighbor give his call over and over again and you could never hear the reply. The reason you could not hear the reply was because you were not tuned to the frequency of the station he was trying to make contact with. Most of DX operations are worked "split".  Meaning that the DX (wanted) station is on one frequency and he is listening elsewhere, usually up from his frequency.  On CW the "up" starts at 1 Khz, and goes up from their depending how big the pileup becomes. And the size and width and urgency of the pileup is determined by how rare the DX station is an how many other stations want him .

On SSB the pileup starts 5 Khz up and goes up from there. Only a few inexperienced DX stations work simplex, meaning the transmit and listen on the same frequency.  AND the fellow further up in this thread that shouted at someone was not heard by one of the DX chasers because he is listening back down on the DX's transmitting station. So attempting to get someone's attention by calling them on their frequency is usually fruitless unless they are running two receivers.

Why do most DX stations "work split?"   So they can control the pileup and have the calling stations spread out so they have a chance of hearing one of them and pulling out their callsign. Otherwise on simplex, they just hear a cacophony of noise almost like white noise of sometimes hundreds of callers, and they cannot hear a single one.

How do you know where these DX operations are?  Well, you need to look at the "spots". Google dxsummit  that is as good of a place to start as any. There are many others. As well as Telnet sites.

Again, most DXpeditions works split, Most individuals do not. Some individual operators also work split.  The key is to listen for a bit to determine what is going on.  If you have a waterfall, you can see the pileups above the DX stations frequency and you know something is going on.  Working DX and BEING a DXer is a dog eat dog, cat eat mouse endeavor. Not for the faint of heart.

Being on the other end of a DX pileup is even more daunting. If you would like to experience a small, maybe very small "taste" of being a DX station you can start by activation of a park under the POTA program (Parks On The Air)...this may produce a small pileup, and are always worked simplex.  So you can get your feet wet there. You can start by being a hunter, and later on when you are ready can be an activator.

Good luck, and enjoy the hobby. I am always available to answer questions. I don't have all of the answers, but I have a few. 
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73  James K0UA

KA4WJA

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Re: Random questions
« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2023, 12:52:14 AM »

Mark,
You ask some good (but, not "simple") questions regarding the FCC rules, and operating practices....power output;  abusive/profane language....(and, although you didn't specifically mention it, our transmit spectral purity)...and, while there might not actually be 100% definitive answers (with precise numbers) to them all, there are some answers that will get you, both the straight scoop (real-world answers) and the "official" (legal) answers!  :)

Relatively new to this hobby - just passed my General and studying for the Extra -

When the FCC says per CFR ยง 97.313 Transmitter power standards. (a) An amateur station must use the minimum transmitter power necessary to carry out the desired communications - does anyone besides those doing QRP actually adjust power up and down to follow that or if you've got 100W or 1500W you just park it there?

1)  Let's hit the easy one first....FCC Part 97.313, power output standards.

Quote
  97.313 Transmitter power standards.
(a) An amateur station must use the minimum transmitter power necessary to carry out the desired communications.

(b) No station may transmit with a transmitter power exceeding 1.5 kW PEP.
.......................

Mark, you ask: 
...does anyone besides those doing QRP actually adjust power up and down to follow that or if you've got 100W or 1500W you just park it there?"

a)  The short answer is, yes of course some of us do adjust power up/down as necessary.

b)  The slightly longer answer is, yes of course some of us do adjust power up/down as necessary....but, I've never, ever had anyone ever comment that my signal was too strong, or ask me to reduce my power...and, unless someone was causing interference to others, I've never heard anyone ask anyone else to turn their power down....but, you DO hear some ask others to turn the power up!  :)

{Three things you don't hear much on-the-air:  "I've just got too much money in the bank, and all this ham gear is such a bargain!" and/or "I love these new YaeComWoodFlexCraft radios, they're all so perfect, reliable, and easy-peasy to program and use, and they are so low priced, I think I'll get a dozen spares!" and/or "Your signal is too strong, please go QRP"....hi hi :) }


c)  The long answer is pretty darn long, and would involve delving into semantics, philosophy, ethics, etc., as well as ERP / EIRP (Effective Radiated Power / Effective Isotropic Radiated Power), so...


d)  So, the better answer is: as above, yes of course some of us do adjust power up/down as necessary to carry out the desired communications. 
And, in case some hams, or prospective hams, haven't copied it loud and clear, the FCC (and authorities in many other countries and sanctioned under international law) in writing rules for the Amateur Radio Service, quite purposely gives us wide latitude, and specifically directs us to use "good engineering" and "good amateur practice" in abiding by those wide rules that they set out!

{just an example here....80m SSB in Florida...wintertime NVIS comms late at night, working stations 100 - 250 miles from me, there is no need for 1500+ watts, even with my "compromised" temporary antenna (my low, stealthy dipole), and most times I'd be barefoot at ~ 65 watts, but just a few hours earlier, working the guys in Europe on 80m SSB with my compromised antenna, then my amp would have been on and doing its job!

Now, move forward (or backward) in time ~ 6 months, now it's summertime, on 80m SSB in Florida, in the evenings (up to midnight, and even afterward) the distant/regional (and even worldwide) lightning static crashes raise the constant background noise 20 - 25db (or more) and the local crashes that come every couple of seconds are another 10 - 20db+ higher...so, what casual arm-chair copy we had months before, barefoot....now even with ~ 13 - 15db gain from our amps, we still don't have the wonderful S/N we had when the band was quiet...and, in addition to amps running all night, some guys (not myself) go looking for DSP "noise reduction" to make things a bit easier on the ears....(and when a DX station stops by for a chat, I'm usually looking for my headphones, 'cuz they are almost always already using their max power, just like we are in the summertime)...}


 If the "desired communications" is to be heard (in my example on 80m SSB) with decent S/N's so that we can have conversations, rather than "sorry I only got about every third word....did you say your dog died, or was that your wife that died?"....then using our legal-limit power to overcome the high noise level, etc., does seem to fit in under "good amateur practice" and "good engineering".....BUT....(and, this is a big "but")

But, there are also other parts of the rules to consider in making the determination of whether your operating does actually fall under "good amateur practice" and "good engineering"....not the least of which are the prohibitions against, causing interference to other stations / "operations on adjacent frequencies", and occupying "more bandwidth than necessary for the information rate and emission type being transmitted, in accordance with good amateur practice."

[NO, this doesn't mean that using an "amp" / running 1500 watts, causes interference, nope.....but, over-driving an amp DOES! 
As does, hams using rigs with piss-poor transmit IMD / spectral purity, and then running them thru an amp, where the amp not only "amplifies" the already poor signal, but in many cases also adds more / contributes to the interference / IMD / clicks!
AND, lest we forget the hams using rigs with piss-poor transmit IMD / spectral purity, and then driving an amp (SS or tube) trying to get the thing's "advertised output" to show on the meter, but the amp manufacturer has taken advantage of the (unfortunately ignorant) new ham and is marketing an actual 500 - 600 watt output amp as a "800 watt amp"!
Or, how about oh so many hams (even many of my fellow contemporaries / old timers), that actually haven't a clue what IMD is!  Yes, my rant could go on....but, that's for another day / another thread...]

Quote
97.307 Emission standards.
(a) No amateur station transmission shall occupy more bandwidth than necessary for the
information rate and emission type being transmitted, in accordance with good amateur practice.

(b) Emissions resulting from modulation must be confined to the band or segment available to the
control operator. Emissions outside the necessary bandwidth must not cause splatter or keyclick
interference to operations on adjacent frequencies.

....

Now, you're saying....whoa, wait a minute, I'm supposed to "use the minimum power needed, not interfere with other stations, AND not occupy more bandwidth than necessary"....all with "good engineering" and with "good amateur practice"?

I'm fairly certain some new hams, and/or those new to HF, and/or those recently upgraded to General or Extra Class, are shaking their heads and saying "Really?  Really, those are the rules?"  and  "How am I supposed to know what 'good engineering' and 'good amateur practice' are?"

Ah, the answers to those questions are:
"yes, those are the rules (and, yes, most of us do try to abide by them)"
and 
"you learn about 'good engineering' and 'good amateur practice' by reading / studying for the exams (not by memorizing questions and answers), by learning from the existing base of amateur radio operators, and by using common courtesy / common sense (both on-the-air and when studying/learning off-the-air as well)."

This IS the way the Amateur Radio Service works and/or works for most of us (or, at least the way it is supposed to work).  And, as I wrote, this is not only the law under US code and of most other countries, but also codified under international law (ITU / UN)....and, not by chance it IS the VERY first "rule" in FCC Part 97.

Quote
Part 97.1
Basis and purpose.

The rules and regulations in this part are designed to provide an amateur radio service having a fundamental purpose as expressed in the following principles:


(a) Recognition and enhancement of the value of the amateur service to the public as a voluntary noncommercial communication service, particularly with respect to providing emergency communications.

(b) Continuation and extension of the amateur's proven ability to contribute to the advancement of the radio art.

(c) Encouragement and improvement of the amateur service through rules which provide for advancing skills in both the communication and technical phases of the art.

(d) Expansion of the existing reservoir within the amateur radio service of trained operators, technicians, and electronics experts.

(e) Continuation and extension of the amateur's unique ability to enhance international goodwill.

These very first rules, Part 97.1, are all too often overlooked by so many folks that "just want to get on the radio and talk to folks", that they forget there ARE other radio services for that purpose, but ham radio isn't one of them.

So, this being the real world of the 21st Century.....what happens when you have 1000's of people that "just want to get on the radio and talk to folks", all erroneously think that the Amateur Radio Service (ham radio) is this? 
Well, I haven't personally listened to 7200, but I hear stories of it, and I have occasionally tuned up above 80m to the higher ~ 100khz or so of the 75m band....as well as I go back far enough to remember the zoo on 20m (was it 14.313 or .303?), the shootouts on 3895, etc. etc....so, Mark that is what we get....


2)  The FCC can shut them down....but, it is up to us to "self-police"...record, make copious notes, and report all directly to the FCC...

Why can't the FCC shut down the bozos on 7.200? 
<snip>
Is there any teeth in enforcement or not?

We get what we get there, because few newer hams have actually grasped what ham radio is...it is a "service" to our communities, to our country, to the whole world, where we are given great freedom to experiment / test / push the technical boundaries, etc., communicate in just about any mode / any way, with just about anyone in any country (even in outer space), etc...all with those 5 basic purposes as our goals / mission to accomplish...as laid out in Part 97.1

Now, I won't try and BS you, and even imply that every ham accomplishes all 5 of those goals every time they are on the air....but we do try, or at least try to do a few of them each time we operate, design something, build/test something, etc..

And, please understand that I'm not saying that anyone that doesn't care to try those goals ends up on 7200, no not at all!   But, I am saying that those that DO try to adhere to those 5 basic purposes and try to accomplish them as often as they can ---- those guys/gals are NOT on 7200, or elsewhere on the bands causing trouble.

 As for the FCC and enforcement....actually my personal contact with them in the past dozen or so years has been good!  Sure that have scaled-back, but they have actually been adhering to the rules, and allowing us to use the freedom we have to expand/push technology, provide emerg comms, etc., and promote international goodwill....as long as we are using "good engineering" and "good amateur practice"....their enforcement approach is not a "hands off" approach, but is more of a "as long as they're using 'good engineering' and 'good amateur practice', we'll let them self-police".  (which is quite a difference from the heavy-handed "all-knowing" FCC of my early days ---  1970's and up into the early 80's...)

FYI, those that wish to disagree with me, I accept that we all have different experiences...and, as I had an interference incident some 5 - 6 years ago, that showed me the FCC does care and that they are willing to help....a local ham was maliciously interfering my my 146.970 repeater (KA4WJA/R)....I didn't have the time to play games / track him down...but, I did record him and specifically told him that I was in contact with FCC (I was) and was sending the recordings to them (I did attach the audio files to an email, but never needed to send it)....I made telephone contact with the head honcho of the FCC, handling the SE US (and their chief of enforcement), this took me two phone calls (waited a half day)....they called me back and I explained the situation....and they said "record it...send the recordings to us...we will start the investigation and be in contact with some info/results within 30 days"....fact is, once the word got out that I really was talking to the FCC, the guy gave up and I never pursued if further....(but, just 2 years ago, I did pass on some info on FM broadcast....I passed info to a local broadcast engineer, who passed it along to the FCC....in regards to a "pirate / bootleg" FM station, I traced near Orlando...and, within two - three weeks the station was gone!)

So, again, I know some say the FCC doesn't care / won't enforce anything....but, that has not been my experience....so, if you feel something / someone on-the-air is truly objectionable, record it along with as much detail and technical info you can manage...and forward it to the FCC, and give it a month or so....I think you'll be surprised....(at least my personal experience says so...)



3)  DX running "split"...
James, K0UA, explained things very well...
In listening to people trying to connect with a DX station last week, one gentleman the width of the country away from me kept yelling out his call sign every thirty seconds or so.  I was trying to hear who the DX station was so I heard him go on for at least five minutes and he was booming.  Is that acceptable behavior?  I heard other weaker (to me) stations trying to make contact but nowhere near as insistent.
Acceptable?  No...
But, it does happen....and, just like folks splattering, and/or hams not even grasping what our Amateur Radio service actually is....it happens because we [hams] have almost stopped teaching and learning (to/from our fellow hams)...
Again we get what we get, because we all seem to accept "less"....instead of demanding more from ourselves (personally/individually) and from our fellow hams, we simply accept less (you know, that attitude that "that's what the big dial is for"...we accept less = we get less)

Anyway, re-read James' post for the details on working "split".
https://www.eham.net/community/smf/index.php/topic,138052.msg1283782.html#msg1283782



4)  I am also an offshore sailor....sailed my first Atlantic crossing > 40 years ago... :)

I used to sail offshore a good bit and really enjoyed the cruisers' nets.  I'm now using a mag loop with a KX3 and I don't think my signal is getting out there.   I've got a crank up tower and a KXPA 100W amp I plan on using when it warms up enough to sink anchors.

The KX3 is a nice radio, but you REALLY need a decent antenna!  :)

[speaking of IMD...be careful with that KXPA-100....as its IMD specs, from ARRL Product Review tests, are not great...average, at best...
Elecraft KPXA-100 =  32/34/42/52 db(PEP) for 3rd/5th/7th/9th order products...
and that's at a solid 13.8vdc....and, like most "100 watt" rigs, if you try to run it on "battery voltages" (12dvc - 12.8vdc), it gets worse...]



I know I wrote a lot here, and for what you posed (guessing with an assumption that it was a simple question?), perhaps more than you expected....but, I did want to actually answer your questions, not just throw some BS at you.  :)
So, I do hope I helped some?


And, from one offshore sailor to another, Fair Winds!  :)
Here are some pics, videos, and links....my boat, my offshore sailing, maritime HF radio, etc..

https://jerodisys.com/C470/470pix/4707820.htm

https://www.youtube.com/user/captainjohn49/playlists

https://jerodisys.com/C470/foto_bot.htm

https://www.instagram.com/ka4wja_/

https://www.qrz.com/db/KA4WJA


73,
John,  KA4WJA

And, while not a great shot, here is my current boat, in Horta, Faial, Azores in 2007...
https://jerodisys.com/C470/470pix/4707820.htm
« Last Edit: January 17, 2023, 01:04:58 AM by KA4WJA »
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KD9PQB

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Re: Random questions
« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2023, 08:01:55 AM »

K0UA - James - thanks very much for the explanation.  I have a PX3 panadapter on the way so I'll be able to see what you're describing in a week or so.  I'm not into the competitive aspects of amateur radio, at least not so far.  Definitely not into dog-eat-dog shouting matches but it was entertaining to listen in for a short time.  I may take your suggestion and do a POTA just to see.  I will check out DXSummit and thanks for the offer of help - I may take you up on it.  Thanks again and 73.

KA4WJA - John - very generous of you to go to that length to answer my questions.  I appreciate your description of the service nature of amateur radio and will keep that in the forefront when I'm on the air.  I will also keep in mind what you've said about enforcement and self-policing.

Which leads me to my favorite topic - sailing.  What a beautiful vessel you have and it sounds like you have done a lot more sailing than I have.  Mine have been much more modest but classics - a Contessa 26 when I lived in Homer, AK, and a Westsail 32 I bought in Bradenton and sailed back to AK in 05/06.  I sailed off and on from age 4 - my father was an avid sailor and lived aboard in FL for about 20 years of his retirement - but that trip was my big hurrah - seeing if I could emulate my solo sailor heroes and enjoy it.  It was difficult and tremendously satisfying but my wife stressed out during my solo passages so it was a one time shot.  But I got to do it and that trip is by far my favorite adventure.

Thanks again for all of the insight and advice. 73 
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KA4WJA

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Re: Random questions
« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2023, 09:32:58 AM »

Mark,
You're very welcome!

Fair winds and 73,
John,  KA4WJA
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K0UA

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Re: Random questions
« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2023, 10:32:48 AM »

Your going to fall in love with that panadapter even if you don't become a DX'er.  It is like opening another dimension to radio.  Not just for your ears anymore, now you can radio with your eyes as well. "I can see!, I can see!" 

I highly recommend getting into POTA, even if you do nothing but hunt from home. It is fun and you can do as much or as little as you like. Get on the POTA app which will "spot" the POTA activators and track them down and see how many you can work in a day. IF you like paper awards, you can print them all day after you have earned some. They accumulate thick and fast.

When the wife and I go on longer trips in the HF radio equipped truck, we hunt POTA station all during the trip. The wife finds them on the smartphone and tunes the rig to them, and I work them. I am usually driving so it makes it safer for me to have someone else manipulate the radio so I don't have to take my eyes off of the road. It REALLY makes trips go fast. We use the HAMERS app on the smart phone, It has full selection and ordering of the stations by band and mode as well as logging. Very convenient to use.

Get into POTA, you will love it, I guarantee it.

Whether you want to jump into DXing is up to you, as it requires a much larger and longer commitment. I have been actively DXing now since December 2017. I have 284 confirmed so far and over 1900 challenge points. Not great, but not too shabby either.

Again, if you need advice (note, I did not say GOOD advice  :)  ) contact me, and I will try my best to assist you.
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73  James K0UA

N8TGQ

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Re: Random questions
« Reply #20 on: January 18, 2023, 08:46:01 AM »

I listened to shortwave and the ham bands for a long time before I got my license, so I knew what to expect. Thats why my first HF radio was QRP CW. CW filtered out a lot of crap for a long while until all the "radio games" started.
So then I got my Extra license and was able to further filter out the riff raff. It hasn't completely dissappeared, but it's greatly diminished.
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KD9PQB

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Re: Random questions
« Reply #21 on: January 18, 2023, 11:01:29 AM »

K0UA, thanks again.  I'm looking forward to having the PX3 just to save on the knob spinning.  I've got the KX3 and my tower is an AlumaTower on a trailer so can go mobile as well, as long as there's enough room to set it up - the guys require an 80' circle - or I can do the wire in the tree thing.  I was looking on Craiglist for a some kind of standard tower for a permanent installation on my little farm about two months ago and came across this gov't surplus tower at what I thought was a good price so I went and got it.  It may have been a bigger score that I initially thought if I find I enjoy taking it to different parks, etc.  I've also got a cabin about an hour away and can take it there when I'm staying for any length of time.

N8TGQ - As I mentioned earlier, I just got my General about a week ago and am working on my Extra, motivated in part by what you pointed out.  I don' think the rest of the bands are that afflicted by bad behavior though.  Other than the 7.200 Firesign Theater troupe, it seems minor.  I'm also working on picking up Morse code so that will limit problems even more.

KA4WJA - Not being defensive about the KXPA100, I have one and that's life - I tried to look up the ARRL review on it without luck.  What I did find was a review which referenced the ARRL lab and it stated that the problem with the KXPA100's IMD was limited to TRXs other than Elecraft.   

"We did have a problem running our normal 2-tone tests in that the IMD performance was poor. This did not occur when the driving transceiver was a KX3 with its amplifier interface cables. Elecraft investigated this and determined that the wrong band was sometimes being selected at low 2-tone power levels."  http://www.ad5x.com/images/Presentations/KXPAreview.pdf

Does this address it or can you tell me where to find the ARRL review?
« Last Edit: January 18, 2023, 11:03:37 AM by KD9PQB »
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WA3SKN

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Re: Random questions
« Reply #22 on: January 18, 2023, 03:49:33 PM »

In the "Good Old Days" of AM and class C finals, lowering power was not really practical.  Now with our newer SSB radios it is... however, few do.
We are all creatures of habit.

As for the "Lids", there is always that "one percent"!
You will find that the Amateur Radio Service is not the FCCs biggest problem.  However, they can and will enforce if needed.  They are undermanned and slow.  They can be much faster if your congressman gets involved.

-Mike.

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KA4WJA

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Re: Random questions
« Reply #23 on: January 18, 2023, 10:53:51 PM »

Mark,
I kinda' regret even mentioning the 100 watt PA's IMD....as running it in a POTA operation, it's likely that the antennas you'll be using won't be high enough gain for any splatter to have a negative effect on others.

I mean, you asked some questions about power output and FCC rules....and, then I go off and expand things to include the rules about operating bandwidth and splatter.....and, then I make an off-hand comment about using caution with the external 100 PA.

And, now I stuck....I can't back away from my comments, as they are still my fervent opinions....but, I also don't wish to go off on an "IMD rant" (that I'm sort-of known for).....so, do I post a scan that might seem like I'm bashing Elecraft? ---- No...probably not a good idea....so, I'll just answer your questions and stand by my words of caution.  :)

So, please know I'm not an Elecraft hater...

Fact is, that while they made some of the best HF CW rigs ever made (the K3 and K3s), as well as their diversity reception being a real step forward, Elecraft has done some great things.....but their rigs are really not designed for phone (SSB)....and, no reason they should be, as that's not their target customers...

One look at the K3's transmit IMD, even at its "sweet spot" of 75w out PEP, shows you that Elecraft doesn't care about their 100 watt PA's linearity (and the K3S, is even worse....and, when dong their testing, the ARRL was so frustrated by the K3S's poor transmit IMD that they sent their K3S back to Elecraft to be "warmed-over" (rebuilt), only to find the new/rebuilt one they got back to have only minor improvements...)

And, as I wrote the KX3 is a nice rig...and, the KXPA-100 is not bad, not great either...again, as I wrote: "average, at best" (below average).
And, when run on battery voltages (12 - 12.6vdc) rather than off a regulated 13.8vdc supply, as with most nominal "12vdc" PA's, its IMD suffers...and, while POTA antennas might be a saving grace in these situations, it still calls for caution.

The KXPA-100 was tested by the ARRL, and their Product Review published in Oct 2014 QST.

The IMD figures I quoted [-32/ -34/ -42/ -52 db(PEP)] are directly from that test / review....and, are not that stellar.

And, the IMD of KXPA-100 isn't much different from that of the KPA-100 from 10 years earlier (Feb 2004 QST), where it had IMD measurements of -26/ -40/ -41/ -52db(PEP).


Mark, again, I won't go off on an IMD rant here...and, I regret bringing this up.  :(
But, I do recommend caution when running the 100 PA, especially on "battery voltages".


I hope this helps?

73,
John, KA4WJA
« Last Edit: January 18, 2023, 10:59:11 PM by KA4WJA »
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KD9PQB

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Re: Random questions
« Reply #24 on: January 19, 2023, 05:06:09 AM »

John,

No worries whatsoever.  I was just trying to understand its limitations better.  As I said, I have what I have and that's life.  Everything is a compromise of some sort.

I will bear the "battery voltage" in mind.  Since I'm not humping it up hills on my back, I'm sure I can come up with an adequate power supply.

Fair winds and following seas,

Mark
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