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Author Topic: Tough times for True Blue  (Read 2615 times)

N0UN

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Re: Tough times for True Blue
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2023, 08:22:39 AM »

All summed up by this:

Crozet Island, the 3rd most wanted entity was on the air and making contacts, yet a few people are looking for a reason to complain about it. Go figure....

Most of us who actually earned Honor Roll or #1 actually laugh at the "laziness" of the operation and what the hobby's become.  If you worked him on CW, you earned it.  The rest?  Add the asterisk for, "lazy, mindless, automated computer scripted text messaging" (commonly known as FT8). "Laughing" is a better term than "complaining".

A few weeks ago I sent TBDXC $250 to sponsor some plaques for the Ultra Marathon winners, which unfortunately Peter just sent back.

I thought about taking over the reins, rebuilding it from the ground up, dismissing all the "Ham Radio Wannabe's" but then came to my senses and realized that obligation would cut into my eHam Comedy Hour time.

Decisions, decisions..

N0UN
« Last Edit: January 24, 2023, 08:31:24 AM by N0UN »
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K0UA

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Re: Tough times for True Blue
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2023, 09:11:58 AM »

So "true blue" turned up its toes. Could not have happened to a better bunch :)

If you build your foundation on sand you cannot expect much of a foundation to build your house on.
And when you try to build on division and hate, it often does not work out so well.

I for one, will not miss them.
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73  James K0UA

K9MRD

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Re: Tough times for True Blue
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2023, 09:26:53 AM »

This conflict reminds me of the AM vs SSB “war” 65 years ago and we all know where that ended….and yes, I was there. Like it or not, technology marches on.
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WO7R

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Re: Tough times for True Blue
« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2023, 09:29:52 AM »

Quote
However, the ARRL went for the money went with what hams demonstrably want rather than keeping the integrity of the program.

Fixed that for you.  The "it's about the money" is tiresome.  First off, the organization does need money.  Sure, it's not GM or Apple paying out dividends.  But in every other respect, it's a business and a business needs revenue.  Getting it through ham activity is the least objectionable way to do it.  The ARRL could probably be accused of being beholden to advertisers and that (in my mind) is a more serious charge if one could plausibly tie it to specific behavior that isn't desirable.  But, we hear surprisingly little about that over the years.

Look, it's time to remember how arbitrary this all is.  If De Soto had decided to require than an entity have 500 or more permanent residents to count, the program would look very different today.

There's nothing magical about "the rules" as the FT8 crowd perceives them.  The rules have, in fact, changed more drastically over time than allowing FT8.  FT8, in the end, is just another digital mode.  Everything you can accuse FT8 of being could also be an accusation against any other digital mode whatever.  Even the semi-automation is simply because FT8 provided it and nobody got around to providing it for RTTY or PSK or Olivia.

Probably no one will bother, but an FT8 style schema for RTTY is 100 per cent possible.  Replace individualized quirky macros with canned ones and PSK would be there tomorrow.

Meanwhile, ARRL went with what hams demostrably want.  That they get money for being so sensible is a bonus.  Sometimes, valid interests reinforce each other.  BFD.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2023, 09:32:23 AM by WO7R »
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WO7R

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Re: Tough times for True Blue
« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2023, 09:51:46 AM »

Quote
I thought about taking over the reins, rebuilding it from the ground up, dismissing all the "Ham Radio Wannabe's" but then came to my senses and realized that obligation would cut into my eHam Comedy Hour time.

The prose is delightfully snappy here, but the confession is noteworthy.

This statement means it is highly likely that nobody is going to try the True Blue approach again.  It means that even would-be True Bluers read the tea leaves as I do.  Understandable.  Pushing a string gets old.

Maybe someone will take up the burden after all.  Maybe.  However, this confession makes it look less likely.

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KE4KY

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Re: Tough times for True Blue
« Reply #20 on: January 24, 2023, 10:25:36 AM »


I thought about taking over the reins.....

N0UN

If personally dissatisfied with the trajectory of DX-peditions these days, you along with other TBD folks should immediately form a committee/team to plan DX-peditions to places in the top 50 within the next few years. Plan it, fund it, and execute it as your team sees fit.

Much like the Microlite Penguin DX Group from some recent years, make the scheme to reflect the history of DX-peditioning with the onus being on the op back home to do his part to get into the log. The Microlite Penguin DX Group made no bones about their plans, having no amplifiers, a lightweight approach to antennas, and thereby placing the fun of the chase back into DX-peditioning experience.

"The Microlite Penguins, under the leadership of James Brooks, 9V1YC,
are an informal band of DXpeditioners formed in 2001 who value operator skill over equipment"

https://www.ncdxf.org/newsletters/2011-SPRING.SUMMER.pdf

It's like a radio club you don't like anymore, leave it and form a new one.



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Glenn KE4KY - Amateur Radio since 1975; Definitely, one of the deserving...

W2IRT

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Re: Tough times for True Blue
« Reply #21 on: January 24, 2023, 11:49:36 AM »

Most of us who actually earned Honor Roll or #1 actually laugh at the "laziness" of the operation and what the hobby's become.  If you worked him on CW, you earned it.

Speak only for yourself, please. My 337 current/340 total were all either CW or SSB, and damned close to HR on RTTY, but honestly what makes a real "True Blue" DXer is someone who will do whatever it takes to make contact with the DX and boost their totals, so long as it's legal and acceptable by the sanctioning body (ARRL, CQ, etc).

I would consider today's DXer to be as skilled now as any of us were in the early 2000s, but I will absolutely grant you the fact it was far more challenging in the years before that when there were no clusters, and guys were satisfied with one or two bands and modes (RTTY if you were nuts or exotic). It was harder back then, but was it better? The only part of olde-timey-DXing I wish I could have experienced was being on prior to all the political changes so my totals could be higher.

Was a phone call from a friend really all that much different than getting an automated cluster alarm today? Especially if said friend actually gave you genuinely good intel (14195 worked 14217 but he's sliding up) rather than a dozen bogus spots?

I'd argue that solar peaks back then provided better propagation opportunities than we've had since about 2004-2005. Plus more exotic locations were on the air then than there are now. So getting HR in the old days might have been far easier than it has been of late because getting places like Navassa, Desecheo, Syria, Turkmenistan, Aukland-Campbell, etc, weren't the impossibilities that they are now. Today it's technologically easier to work new ones, and do so on numerous bands and modes, but until Cycle 25 started to go crazy, prop had been garbage, and nobody's allowed to go anywhere rare anymore, so you tell me which is harder.
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KD8MJR

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Re: Tough times for True Blue
« Reply #22 on: January 24, 2023, 02:03:30 PM »

It was very disturbing to me yesterday listening to a US ham on 20M trying to work a DX station in the EU.
He just openly asked the DX if he could standby while he logged into WebSDR so he could "Hear Him Better".  I can tell you the guy was probably only hearing about 5% of what the Dx was saying so he basically was going to use an SDR radio in the EU to make the contact possible since his 1000 watts into his G5RV was a one way trip. :P

I don't know how much further this Hobby can sink before WhattApp calls are accepted as a contacts, after all it does use Radio  :-X
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KD8MJR

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Re: Tough times for True Blue
« Reply #23 on: January 24, 2023, 02:29:46 PM »


I thought about taking over the reins, rebuilding it from the ground up, dismissing all the "Ham Radio Wannabe's" but then came to my senses and realized that obligation would cut into my eHam Comedy Hour time.

Decisions, decisions..

N0UN

I don't even want to guess what your punishment system will be like for TB members that use FT8 to make Dx contacts.  I can imagine anything from Broken bones to Hot Pokers in the Eyes.  ;D ;D

Seriously though, this thing needs a movement started to get the attention of the people at the ARRL.
If it means gathering like minded Dxers and threatening a mass exodus of ARRL members then so be it.
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VE3VEE

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Re: Tough times for True Blue
« Reply #24 on: January 24, 2023, 03:53:05 PM »


Seriously though, this thing needs a movement started to get the attention of the people at the ARRL.
If it means gathering like minded Dxers and threatening a mass exodus of ARRL members then so be it.


How could that work? Doesn't the vast majority of active DXers use FT8 these days?

Marvin VE3VEE
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KD8MJR

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Re: Tough times for True Blue
« Reply #25 on: January 24, 2023, 04:31:27 PM »


How could that work? Doesn't the vast majority of active DXers use FT8 these days?
Marvin VE3VEE

No they don't but if they get together and say they wanted it removed from the DXCC mixed award then maybe we can get Dxpeditons back on the right track instead of them setting up computers to do the work 24/7 while they go off to eat and sleep. 
I would agree that contacts already made would have to be grandfathered in but set a cutoff date for when the last contacts will be accepted.
 
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W4AMP

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Re: Tough times for True Blue
« Reply #26 on: January 24, 2023, 05:20:00 PM »

SSDD
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K4HB

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Re: Tough times for True Blue
« Reply #27 on: January 24, 2023, 07:09:00 PM »

I applied to join TBDXC when they first started. Said in my application I preferred Phone and CW, but would work FT8 if that's what the station I need is using. The founder, a very nice guy by the way, politely advised me that FT8 is not in the tenets of the club. But he wouldn't deny my membership. He was right, so I didn't join.

I believe he's passionate about his beliefs, and it's sad that so many rats jumped ship. And he's taking the blame, rather than blaming everyone else. (Wish those in government would do that) If anyone joins an organization or club, they should follow the rules and tenets. It's not like they were taking hostile action against FT8/FT4 users, or QRMing their operations. They had a webpage, and I understand they had contests. So don't see how they were bothering the rest of us, they were just a group with different opinions.
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WO7R

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Re: Tough times for True Blue
« Reply #28 on: January 24, 2023, 08:34:33 PM »

Quote
No they don't but if they get together and say they wanted it removed from the DXCC mixed award

Who is "they"?  Are you actually still trying to claim that the majority of DXers disapprove of FT8?

You're full of it if you are.

1.  The Clublog data shows that at least half of all QSOs are FT8.  I've seen nobody put out a convincing claim that these millions of data points are unrepresentative of overall ham activity.  Someone said "well, I'm not in Clublog and many more aren't either, so the data is bent."  But then I was able to show that even non-members of Clublog are in members' logs.  In fact, I cited that particular critic by call sign as being known to Clublog.  Showing Clublog isn't representative is a tall order.  The problem here is basic:  If a Clublog member uploads a log then everyone that member contacts is in the data.  It is just possible that somehow Clublog members are misrepresentative.  But that's half of the issue.  The question is whether those they work are also unrepresentative and in what sense.  Every QSO in the Clublog data base has a member that worked literally anyone else, member or not.

2.  The failure of True Blue shows the minority status of the FT8 haters another way.  The self-admitted record is now clear -- defections, defections, defections.  The organization is defunct because a lot of hams decided, in the end, to join the future and stop playing King Canute.

Those are pretty powerful indicators that FT8 is, you know, popular.

The league has its own data -- LOTW, award applications.  I've seen not a hint or a peep that they think FT8 is anything other than very popular.  They probably would support it even if it were a significant minority (say, 5 or 10 per cent of all QSOs).  But it certainly isn't in the half percent range.  Otherwise, they might lean your way.
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WB9LUR

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Re: Tough times for True Blue
« Reply #29 on: January 24, 2023, 09:20:29 PM »

Quote
No they don't but if they get together and say they wanted it removed from the DXCC mixed award


Those are pretty powerful indicators that FT8 is, you know, popular.


I have never used FT8 - just not interested - everyone can make their own choice and I'm not going to argue about it or against it here. But something you said caught my attention.

Is FT8 actually popular as in popular, you know, because large numbers hams enjoy FT8 because it's fun and rewarding to use or - popular as in - popularly used as a means to an end result?

Perhaps to some that would be a distinction without a difference. Opinions may vary.


Randy / WB9LUR


ps - I guess I do use FT8 in a way - when a band "sounds" like it should be open but I'm hearing little CW or SSB, I go to the FT8 watering holes - if I hear nothing there then the band really is dead.


« Last Edit: January 24, 2023, 09:35:56 PM by WB9LUR »
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73, Randy / WB9LUR - http://www.CallingDX.com

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