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Author Topic: Tough times for True Blue  (Read 2614 times)

WO7R

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Re: Tough times for True Blue
« Reply #60 on: January 26, 2023, 01:33:31 PM »

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Now you do have that other 20% who are old well known Hams living in HOAs and IMHO used their contacts within the organization to  lobby for FT8 to be included in the Mixed Awards and yes they do fork over some money every year.

Who said anyone lobbied anyone?  Was there even a debate?  Where's your evidence?  You seem to live in this fantasy land where everyone knew that FT8 was the enemy of all Right Thinking Folk from day one.

This is, to my knowledge, total nonsense.  WSJT-X and its predecessor WSJT worked in relative anonymity for years creating a variety of novel digital modes.  The main focus was VHF and VHF EME at that.  The resulting modes (most famously, JT65 but also two or three different meteor scatter modes) were accepted by the ARRL and by the CQ Awards system too without any debate that I can remember.  I certainly submitted several worthwhile JT65 HF QSOs for credit back before FT8 happened.  All of these modes were about as controversial as PSK31.  I don't know what basement you live in, but we've been pioneering novel digital modes for years now.  In fact, there is a couple of guys opining out loud about how Olivia should be more popular.  Very few care about that one, but I see no evidence that the league treats it any differently than other digital modes.

Then FT8 came along.  Two things happened:  1) It hit a sweet spot and became very popular.  It did so very quickly, in fact.  2) Because that speed required a semi-automatic operation, guys like you went ballistic.

But, if there was to be controversy about "computers talking to computers" it should have started with JT65.  It did not.  FT8 was treated exactly as what it was -- the next evolution in the WSJT-X suite of digital modes.

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I think the bulk of operators and ARRL members do not use FT8.  And these are the same people who fund DXpeditions and this hobby in general and I bet if they let their voices be heard things might change.

"I think" is not evidence.  I've provided two lines of it -- Clublog data (you can see for yourself) and now this thread where the head of True Blue admits that members can't be kept in that non-FT8 silo.  They defect over time.

Where is your evidence?  "I  think" you'll find that even if you are surrounded with a boatload of like-minded hams, you will find, if you search out the available evidence that you are actually a strident minority.  I have no evidence to the contrary.

Go read what MM0TWX actually said.  He put the failure of True Blue on his own shoulders, which was a stand up thing to do, but I thought he set it up about as well as it could have been.

He, at least, wanted to promote traditional modes and not just hang around bashing FT8.  That was going to attract more people than the basher group we see so much of in eHam.  Well done, there.  So, IMO, he gave the whole idea about as good a shot as it could have had.

And yet, it failed.

You're like too many people today.  You "think" you know something and yet here is substantial contradiction to what "you know" from the head of True Blue itself and it's like he never spoke up.

Sorry, dude, read the message and weep.  Anti-FT8 has a shelf life, one even shorter than I thought.

That's not because I say so.  It's because the evidence, now including the guy who was running True Blue, say so.
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VK3HJ

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Re: Tough times for True Blue
« Reply #61 on: January 26, 2023, 02:38:26 PM »

For a hobby firmly based on COMMUNICATING, it sure has changed.

Has it?
For as long as I've been active in Ham Radio, there have always been the folks who DON'T want to communicate over the air. Take for example Contesting, with it's minimal exchanges (like FT modes). Take DXing, where it's also minimal exchanges. Then there are the folks who just want to run their own pileup from their home station and give out fake "59" or "5nn" reports, sometimes they do give actual reports, but move on before you can even ask their name. On most of the Data modes where one could chat, I found that most just press "F8" or whatever and send boilerplate exchanges. The FT modes are perfect for those kinds of "QSO". It's good for ticking boxes.
Anyway, haven't we flogged this dead horse long enough?
I have horses and enjoy riding them. I also have an electric car. I operate an SDR using CW and Phone too.
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K6BRN

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Re: Tough times for True Blue
« Reply #62 on: January 26, 2023, 03:38:41 PM »

I really have to agree with Luke, VK3HJ, in the last post.  Many hams have difficulties communicating 1:1.  Or functioning in a social group environment.  It's always been that way.

There are still others who love a good rag-chew, but rarely in CW, unless its limited to a 100 character exchange, total.  And others like the social content of voice discussion nets (AM/SSB/FM Digital), club meetings and events.

CW and the digital mode QSOs - ALL of them, tend to blur the social skills content line due to varying degrees of limited/automated/canned exchanges.  Social skills are less important - brevity and formality is emphasized.  This relly began with CW, moved to RTTY and it's latest incarnation is FT8 and its predecessors.

Regardless - there will always be push back on progress by persons whose personal investment in older approaches/technologies/skills is diminished/threatened by new developments,  It was that way with the transition from kerosene lighting to gas lighting to electric lighting, as it was from horses to automobiles, and from spark to CW.

And so it is with CW to FT8.  Nothing wrong with CW, but it takes a lot more skill and practice to operate effectively, and these skills are not really useful elsewhere, as they once were.   Whereas FT8 tends to require some minimum level of computer/software skills and learning - which IS relevant and useful in the modern world.  CW (well, "Wireless Morse Code") is, after all, more than 120 years old, counting from the 1st transatlantic contact.  Actual, REAL CW (Continuous Wave) Morse transmissions displaced spark about 100 years ago - and THAT caused a huge debate as well.  That's progress!

I'm just happy that Joe Taylor and his team brought some more modern communications concepts to Amateur Radio and pretty much saved HF for the hobby during the last down solar cycle. Unlike RTTY, AMTOR, etc., that were adapted from other industries, they created a series of entirely new communications modes that absolutely embodied the essence of contesting:  Fast, efficient QSOs, carrying the minimum of contact information, in minimum bandwidth and able to "close the link" even in deeply negative SNR conditions, on just about any radio and power level.  What's ironic about this that CW contesters heavily influenced the evolving designs of these modes (whose roots began in Moonbounce comms - also once an exclusive realm of CW).  You asked for it, fellows (and ladies) - and you got it - in spades.

JT-65/JT-9/FT8 is actually late 20th century digital comms methods, thoughtfully "tailored" (pardon the pun) for ham use and run on 21st century radios (and some older ones too) and computers.

It's about time we "took down the barn" and modernized.  That's progress - always has been painful for some.

But since this is a hobby, CW and many other comms modes are just fine.  Enjoy them all!  Just don't count on getting a dream job by flashing your Amateur license, DXCC, Honor Roll credentials - CW and FT8 enthusiast alike.  But show an employer that your familiar with radios, their connection and use, or that you can install and configure esoteric software on multiple CPU platforms - and that just might be a good talking point in some service and IT role interviews.

Brian - K6BRN
« Last Edit: January 26, 2023, 03:43:19 PM by K6BRN »
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KJ4Z

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Re: Tough times for True Blue
« Reply #63 on: January 26, 2023, 04:29:21 PM »

And so it is with CW to FT8.  Nothing wrong with CW, but it takes a lot more skill and practice to operate effectively, and these skills are not really useful elsewhere, as they once were.   Whereas FT8 tends to require some minimum level of computer/software skills and learning - which IS relevant and useful in the modern world.

With respect, the amount of "computer/software skills and learning" required to operate FT8 is hardly pushing the technology envelope.  It's really table stakes in the job market today and is not moving the state of the art forward any more than CW operation is.  That said, both CW and FT8 are completely useless and irrelevant in day to day life.  Instead of resisting that fact we ought to embrace it, and just enjoy the modes for what they are.

When I was a teenager in the 1990s, I got into ham radio and wanted a way to keep track of my QSOs on a computer.  I was not satisfied with the offerings for Mac in those days, and thus began a lucrative and productive career in software engineering.  It's hard to know where the hobby will lead us if we let it.  But one way to make sure it doesn't lead us anywhere is not to enjoy practicing it, whatever the mode.

Incidentally, I think the jury is still out on whether digital modes are going to dominate in the long run.  They are certainly in the ascendancy now, and will always be a big part of the scene going forward.  Will people stay enamored with them over the long haul?  TBD.
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K0UA

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Re: Tough times for True Blue
« Reply #64 on: January 26, 2023, 04:52:16 PM »

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I think the bulk of operators and ARRL members do not use FT8.  And these are the same people who fund DXpeditions and this hobby in general and I bet if they let their voices be heard things might change.

I must say, that statement seems to me to be just about the silliest thing I have ever read here in E-ham.  Your statement could not be more mistaken.
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73  James K0UA

WO7R

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Re: Tough times for True Blue
« Reply #65 on: January 26, 2023, 05:56:21 PM »

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Incidentally, I think the jury is still out on whether digital modes are going to dominate in the long run.  They are certainly in the ascendancy now, and will always be a big part of the scene going forward.  Will people stay enamored with them over the long haul?  TBD.

That's a prudential statement.  I kind of think they are here to stay, though.  Whether "too easy" or not, they demonstrably fit people who were raised on videogames. 

But, your statement may be proven out.  We may move on to something else.  Hard to believe that FT8 is the terminal state of ham radio.  Something else will come along, eventually.

In fact, what may happen (if someone bothers to write the code) is that existing digital modes might become more like FT8.  There is nothing whatever preventing someone from taking the message infrastructure of FT8/JT65/MSK144 and implementing that same message infrastructure for RTTY or PSK31 or even Olivia.  Right now, nobody cares.  Tomorrow?  Who knows?

To be sure, the error rate would probably be higher,  but then, FT4 already has a high error rate even with the various corrections in the FT family of messages.

The synchronization part may actually be the hardest to shake.  The early prototypes of FT4, which was originally designed as a contest mode, tried to be completely asynchronous.  But, in tests, asynchronous proved to be the better mousetrap.
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KD8MJR

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Re: Tough times for True Blue
« Reply #66 on: January 26, 2023, 07:32:05 PM »

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I think the bulk of operators and ARRL members do not use FT8.  And these are the same people who fund DXpeditions and this hobby in general and I bet if they let their voices be heard things might change.

I must say, that statement seems to me to be just about the silliest thing I have ever read here in E-ham.  Your statement could not be more mistaken.

I did not say the bulk of activity on the bands right now is not FT8 I said the bulk of operators and money contributors are not FT8 users.
 The bands have been dead for a long time so most Ham operators have been either off the radio or just sporadically coming on from time to time.  I suspect that if band conditions stay as they have been for the last few weeks your going to see the full force of CW and SSB operators show up for Bouvet.

Out of about two dozen ham operators that I know, only three of them use FT8.  The others think it's a joke!  A few of them meet together and talk on SSB and the vast majority have been mostly off the radio since the cycle 24 ended just like I have been.  Most of them have been gearing up for Bouvet, some with a lot of improvements to their station and others seem to be just taking off the dust covers and looking for some band fills.

If the propagation sucks during the Bouvet operation then I figure the gloves will come off and people will make a contact in any way that they can.
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“A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes.”  (Mark Twain)

WO7R

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Re: Tough times for True Blue
« Reply #67 on: January 26, 2023, 08:00:10 PM »

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Out of about two dozen ham operators that I know, only three of them use FT8.  The others think it's a joke!

It might serve you well if you started doing two things:

1. Learn how to assemble evidence. Stories about you and your three buddies aren't evidence.  It isn't even a convincing anecdote.  I got three buddies that don't like FT8.  I got many more that do.  Sometimes, stories like that all we have to go by and they are far from ideal.
 In fact, they are not evidence.  But, I was able to do much better this time.  You should try it for this discussion.  There actually is evidence that can be evaluated.  Try this:   http://clublog.org/modes.csv  and see what you can glean from it.

2. React to evidence you've been presented.  I gave mine, you act like it didn't exist.  More relevantly, someone else specifically figured out that donors were using FT8 on a recent DXpedition.  That flatly contradicts your stories and it is real evidence.  You might pay some attention to it; accept it, impeach it; or just plain react.

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K0UA

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Re: Tough times for True Blue
« Reply #68 on: January 26, 2023, 09:57:32 PM »

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I did not say the bulk of activity on the bands right now is not FT8 I said the bulk of operators and money contributors are not FT8 users.

And that statement would be terribly, terribly wrong also. You have got to be kidding. As they say, Shaking My Head.
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73  James K0UA

AF5CC

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Re: Tough times for True Blue
« Reply #69 on: January 26, 2023, 09:57:48 PM »

Official T-shirt of the eham.net FT8 threads:

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W1VT

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Re: Tough times for True Blue
« Reply #70 on: January 27, 2023, 03:36:30 AM »

Instead of complaining about the lack of CW activity on the Internet, wouldn't it make more sense to get on the air and work some of those stations calling CQ without much luck?
Seems to me that would be a better way of keeping your CW skills sharp between DX-peditions.
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K1FBI

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Re: Tough times for True Blue
« Reply #71 on: January 27, 2023, 03:45:16 AM »

Long live CW and SSB,

 At least he was half correct.

           Tom KH0/KC0W

CW is a great mode. You can stuff your face with a cheeseburger and "talk" at the same time.
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VK3HJ

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Re: Tough times for True Blue
« Reply #72 on: January 27, 2023, 04:10:45 AM »

CW is a great mode. You can stuff your face with a cheeseburger and "talk" at the same time.
Or continue to drink your beer, or other beverage. Although continued imbibing may cause one's fist to loosen somewhat.
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K6BRN

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Re: Tough times for True Blue
« Reply #73 on: January 27, 2023, 07:20:48 AM »

Hi Michael (KJ4Z):

With respect, the amount of "computer/software skills and learning" required to operate FT8 is hardly pushing the technology envelope.  It's really table stakes in the job market today and is not moving the state of the art forward any more than CW operation is.  That said, both CW and FT8 are completely useless and irrelevant in day to day life.  Instead of resisting that fact we ought to embrace it, and just enjoy the modes for what they are.

Very, very few radio amateurs push any technology envelope of any kind.  Joe Taylor and his team are some of the few.  And even then, the envelope they are "pushing" is for ham radio only, as the fundamental technology itself is many decades old - but their brilliant adaptation of it is brand new - unusual in this somewhat "stick in the mud" hobby.  My point is simply that there is SOME potential, relevant learning benefit to setting up and operating an FT8 station yourself, including computer skills and an opportunity to lead into modern comms engineering.  For a young, motivated ham, figuring out just how the waveforms and protocols work could be facinating.  That's pretty much what I did, very long ago, with everything.  And it's how others have expanded on the FT8 protocols, independently of Joe.

When I was a teenager in the 1990s, I got into ham radio and wanted a way to keep track of my QSOs on a computer.  I was not satisfied with the offerings for Mac in those days, and thus began a lucrative and productive career in software engineering.  It's hard to know where the hobby will lead us if we let it.  But one way to make sure it doesn't lead us anywhere is not to enjoy practicing it, whatever the mode..

You had a Mac.  I had my high school's PDP-8.  When the Altair 8800 came out and Bill Gates founded Microsoft, I considered building a career around microcomputers and decided to gets SE/EE degrees first, instead, which eventually lead to a very happy career in comms systems design and develpment and even a stint in custiom CPU development, which tured out very well.  Life has a lot of unexpected turns - but embracing change and running with it worked out VERY well for me.  But it all started with me taking things apart - hardware and software.  And with Star Trek, of course.  :)

Incidentally, I think the jury is still out on whether digital modes are going to dominate in the long run.  They are certainly in the ascendancy now, and will always be a big part of the scene going forward.  Will people stay enamored with them over the long haul?  TBD.

Digital modes will not be going away anytime soon, but they WILL evolve.  A lot.   I was part of this analog/digital transition in the SatCom industry and the "old timers" said digital would never fly, with anger and certainty.   Oooops!  They were wrong.  (Really, REALLY wrong!) Me and my gang of young whippersnappers drove the technology hard and made it work.  Now most comms is digital.  Amateur Radio is just a few decades behind commercial comms in that arena.

So - should hams learn CW as young operators, or is it more useful to learn to install use, take apart software/firmware and learn how fundamental digital comms algorithms work?  You already know my opinion.  You've already seen the overwhelming trends.  Where do YOU think this is going?

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going into the "shack" now to play "Whac-a-Mole" on FT8.  Europe is booming in on 10M here in CA, in the morning hours.  Love that automation!  Took some REAL engineering skill to make that happen.   :)

Brian - K6BRN
« Last Edit: January 27, 2023, 07:27:09 AM by K6BRN »
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AF5CC

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Re: Tough times for True Blue
« Reply #74 on: January 27, 2023, 07:50:45 AM »

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going into the "shack" now to play "Whac-a-Mole" on FT8.  Europe is booming in on 10M here in CA, in the morning hours.  Love that automation!  Took some REAL engineering skill to make that happen.   :)

Brian - K6BRN

Yes, I am on 10 meters now also, hastening the death of ham radio.
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