Pages: [1] 2   Go Down

Author Topic: Alpha 8100 problem  (Read 488 times)

K8AC

  • Posts: 2065
    • HomeURL
Alpha 8100 problem
« on: January 26, 2023, 04:51:41 PM »

Developed a problem with my 8100 this evening and the schematics I have don't include the plate circuit, tank and associated switching.  I was operating on 160M when the unit faulted and I detected a bit of a burning smell.  After I reset the fault with the OPR/STBY switch, a check with low input power showed no output from the amp.  It functions perfectly on the other bands at full output and with normal positions of the Tune and Load controls.

I'm guessing that there may be a toroid inductor switched in just on 160M, but without the schematic who knows.  Anyone familiar with the 8100 innards want to take a guess as to the source of the problem?  Input was about 25-30 watts at time of failure.

73, Floyd - K8AC
Logged

AE0Q

  • Member
  • Posts: 414
    • AE0Q Amateur Radio
Re: Alpha 8100 problem
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2023, 04:54:08 PM »

Developed a problem with my 8100 this evening and the schematics I have don't include the plate circuit, tank and associated switching.  I was operating on 160M when the unit faulted and I detected a bit of a burning smell. 

Almost certainly a disc ceramic padding capacitor for 160m.  There are 4 or 5 mounted on the chassis just left of the LOAD cap, and more on the small vertical circuit board at the front of the RF section.

Glenn AE0Q
Logged
NSGA Edzell 1974-77  CTM2  GM5BKC : NSGA Rota 1972-74   ZB2WZ, SV0WY
https://radioandtravels.blogspot.com/
http://www.qsl.net/ae0q/

K8AC

  • Posts: 2065
    • HomeURL
Re: Alpha 8100 problem
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2023, 05:06:40 PM »

Hi Glenn - thanks for the response.  Are those something that I can acquire from the usual parts houses, or do I need to get them from Alpha or somewhere else?  I suspect there will be visible signs of damage to the cap.  Is there a source of the schematic for that area of the amp?

73, Floyd - K8AC
Logged

W1QJ

  • Member
  • Posts: 3344
Re: Alpha 8100 problem
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2023, 05:19:35 PM »

Often times they blow a tiny pinhole out somewhere and possibly on the bottom out of sight.  Look real closely or measure each one.  It’s a common failure on 160m.  Check both load and tune padding!
Logged

AE0Q

  • Member
  • Posts: 414
    • AE0Q Amateur Radio
Re: Alpha 8100 problem
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2023, 05:59:35 PM »

Hi Glenn - thanks for the response.  Are those something that I can acquire from the usual parts houses, or do I need to get them from Alpha or somewhere else?  I suspect there will be visible signs of damage to the cap.  Is there a source of the schematic for that area of the amp?

The 8100 RF section is identical to the 99, use the 99 schematic on the Alpha web site page:

https://www.alpharfsystems.com/?p=1422

Unfortunately, the Alpha document person never made an RF section schematic specifically for the 8100 amps  (it wasn't me) ...

The LOAD padders are at the front on the PC board, the TUNE are on the chassis.  If yours are orange, they are 8kv.  Alpha changed to 18kv parts (they are blue) for the higher RF current capability.

https://www.alpharfsystems.com/?ec_store=pageid1519modelnumbercdx-7503-b

Not sure where to get them, Alpha doesn't have any spare right now.
Logged
NSGA Edzell 1974-77  CTM2  GM5BKC : NSGA Rota 1972-74   ZB2WZ, SV0WY
https://radioandtravels.blogspot.com/
http://www.qsl.net/ae0q/

AE0Q

  • Member
  • Posts: 414
    • AE0Q Amateur Radio
Re: Alpha 8100 problem
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2023, 06:18:32 PM »

Often times they blow a tiny pinhole out somewhere and possibly on the bottom out of sight.  Look real closely or measure each one.  It’s a common failure on 160m.  Check both load and tune padding!
If you can identify the bad one, with a tiny black spot as Lou described, you can cut it out and the amp may still load up on 160m with different settings.  Depends on which end of the band you're on :-)
Logged
NSGA Edzell 1974-77  CTM2  GM5BKC : NSGA Rota 1972-74   ZB2WZ, SV0WY
https://radioandtravels.blogspot.com/
http://www.qsl.net/ae0q/

K8AC

  • Posts: 2065
    • HomeURL
Re: Alpha 8100 problem
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2023, 06:55:17 AM »

Well, by a stroke of luck, I have some of the blue caps that I must have bought when working on an old Alpha 86 or 89 a few years ago.  They're 150 pF and 20 KV.   I've been searching for a source for the 75 pF caps and now I see why Alpha is out of them.  It appears that none of the manufacturers are making the 75 pF units any longer.  Nothing smaller than 100 pF.  Even the usual Chinese companies on AlieExpress don't have them.  I located some 75 pF 6 KV caps from Phillips on eBay and will try those.  Don't know exactly what I need yet as haven't pulled the amp off the table but will  do that today.  None of the ceramic disc manufacturers show info on the current carrying capability of the caps they make and I have no idea what the currents encountered in the amp may be. 

73, Floyd - K8AC
Logged

VE7RF

  • Member
  • Posts: 1609
Re: Alpha 8100 problem
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2023, 07:38:06 AM »

Well, by a stroke of luck, I have some of the blue caps that I must have bought when working on an old Alpha 86 or 89 a few years ago.  They're 150 pF and 20 KV.   I've been searching for a source for the 75 pF caps and now I see why Alpha is out of them.  It appears that none of the manufacturers are making the 75 pF units any longer.  Nothing smaller than 100 pF.  Even the usual Chinese companies on AlieExpress don't have them.  I located some 75 pF 6 KV caps from Phillips on eBay and will try those.  Don't know exactly what I need yet as haven't pulled the amp off the table but will  do that today.  None of the ceramic disc manufacturers show info on the current carrying capability of the caps they make and I have no idea what the currents encountered in the amp may be. 

73, Floyd - K8AC

I just received  30 x .01uf @ 30 kv rated disc caps from china...on ebay.  The smallest value they have is 100 pf.
(They also have em in 20 kv..and 10 kv).  These chinese 30 kv types are aprx 30mm in diam x 7/16" thick.  They are just a mm bigger diam x thicker than the 4700 pf @ 15 kv ceramite brand  I bought from henry radio years ago.  Ceramite got bought out by CDE..and still carries the Ceramite caps, but not the 10+15 kv types. (CDE also bought out Malloroy).  I would take those HV ratings with a big grain of salt.  Henry radio stopped using the 4700 pf @ 10 kv, slightly smaller ceramite disc caps for some commercial applications......."they don't handle  10 kv or close to it".   I doubt any of these chinese 10-20-30 kv rated disc caps would pass any hi-pot test.   But for a padding device, the V rating is a non issue.

You are correct, no disc cap maker provides for RF current handling capability... never did, including ceramite.  I bought a bunch of .01uf @ 1.4 kv discs from RF parts, to experiment with. These things are big, at 1" diam and 3/16" thick..and they handle a lot of RF current.   So although  the higher V rated caps  typ handle more current, the physically larger discs, even though lower V rated, also handle more current.

It's a fairly straightforward process to calculate the RF current through both the tune padders...and also load padders.

My concern with any padder cap would be the TC.  That's why I have stuck with HEC doorknobs for padding, like the 100 pf and 170 pf types. (HT-50 series, 7.5 kv rated).  They are N750 for TC..which was good enough for my application. 

But those discs would take up less room.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2023, 07:48:37 AM by VE7RF »
Logged

K8AC

  • Posts: 2065
    • HomeURL
Re: Alpha 8100 problem
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2023, 10:27:22 AM »

Well, I'm back in business!  Going on the advice of Lou and Glenn, I opened up the amp and first examined the 5 padder discs for the tune variable.  Right on top of the first cap, looking at me, was a black pin hole and a small crack about 3mm long.  I removed the assembly (similar process to removing your own appendix) and removed the bad cap and tested it, expecting to see a short.  Instead, it read around 3 nF.  Probably broke down quickly with any voltage on it.  I reinstalled the assembly, minus the bad cap, and fired up the amp.  On 160M, the correct position of the TUNE control is now 70 vs the old position of 39.  I'm a bit concerned over the ability of the remaining 4 caps to handle the RF current, but guess will just run that way until new caps get here.  I located some 6 KV 75pF Phillips disc caps on eBay and will install one of those next week.  If that doesn't pan out, I'll probably go for four of the Vishay 100 pF units that are available. 

Thanks to all who offered suggestions and maybe will see you in the 160 contest this weekend.

73, Floyd - K8AC
Logged

VE7RF

  • Member
  • Posts: 1609
Re: Alpha 8100 problem
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2023, 12:49:41 PM »

Well, I'm back in business!  Going on the advice of Lou and Glenn, I opened up the amp and first examined the 5 padder discs for the tune variable.  Right on top of the first cap, looking at me, was a black pin hole and a small crack about 3mm long.  I removed the assembly (similar process to removing your own appendix) and removed the bad cap and tested it, expecting to see a short.  Instead, it read around 3 nF.  Probably broke down quickly with any voltage on it.  I reinstalled the assembly, minus the bad cap, and fired up the amp.  On 160M, the correct position of the TUNE control is now 70 vs the old position of 39.  I'm a bit concerned over the ability of the remaining 4 caps to handle the RF current, but guess will just run that way until new caps get here.  I located some 6 KV 75pF Phillips disc caps on eBay and will install one of those next week.  If that doesn't pan out, I'll probably go for four of the Vishay 100 pF units that are available. 

Thanks to all who offered suggestions and maybe will see you in the 160 contest this weekend.

73, Floyd - K8AC

good.   3nf = 3000 pf.... so it's way outa whack.
Logged

K8AC

  • Posts: 2065
    • HomeURL
Re: Alpha 8100 problem
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2023, 06:32:26 AM »

I managed to make it through half of the 160M CW contest, running the 8100 with one less tune cap padder.  Another blew during the night when the amp was subject to long periods of CQing.  So, I guess if you're not contesting or running FT8 or RTTY, you can probably get by with one less of those padder caps. 

73, Floyd - K8AC
Logged

VE7RF

  • Member
  • Posts: 1609
Re: Alpha 8100 problem
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2023, 10:58:58 AM »

I managed to make it through half of the 160M CW contest, running the 8100 with one less tune cap padder.  Another blew during the night when the amp was subject to long periods of CQing.  So, I guess if you're not contesting or running FT8 or RTTY, you can probably get by with one less of those padder caps. 

73, Floyd - K8AC

Actually you can't...since you have now blown up TWO of em.  The oem setup used 5 x 75 pf caps =  375 pf.
I would remove ALL the caps, and replace em with  4 x 100 pf @ 30 kv types.  Dirt cheap, and you won't blow em up anytime soon.
Logged

K8AC

  • Posts: 2065
    • HomeURL
Re: Alpha 8100 problem
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2023, 02:20:48 PM »


Actually you can't...since you have now blown up TWO of em.  The oem setup used 5 x 75 pf caps =  375 pf.
I would remove ALL the caps, and replace em with  4 x 100 pf @ 30 kv types.  Dirt cheap, and you won't blow em up anytime soon.
[/quote]
One might survive with one less if not driving the amp so hard?  I understand that the failure of these caps is not uncommon in some Alpha amps - I wonder if the failure is due to exceeding the voltage rating or excessive current?  Since my last post, my new ceramic disc caps arrived in the mail and I installed them.  They were 6KV, 75 pF.  During testing into a dummy load at full power, one of them failed.  So, your suggestion is probably a good one but are you suggesting I use ceramic disc caps or doorknobs?  Doorknobs certainly aren't cheap - $20 each and up.  If the problem is that the current capacity is being exceeded then the 30 KV rating won't be of much value.  Can you suggest a specific capacitor to try?  How can I determine the current flow through the capacitors as padders to the pi net input capacitor?  I think I can find room for four small doorknob caps.  The best recommendation I could find for voltage rating of the pi net input capacitor(s) was twice the plate voltage.  That matches the 6 KV rating that Alpha uses in the amps.

73, Floyd - K8AC
Logged

VE7RF

  • Member
  • Posts: 1609
Re: Alpha 8100 problem
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2023, 03:26:29 AM »


Actually you can't...since you have now blown up TWO of em.  The oem setup used 5 x 75 pf caps =  375 pf.
I would remove ALL the caps, and replace em with  4 x 100 pf @ 30 kv types.  Dirt cheap, and you won't blow em up anytime soon.
One might survive with one less if not driving the amp so hard?  I understand that the failure of these caps is not uncommon in some Alpha amps - I wonder if the failure is due to exceeding the voltage rating or excessive current?  Since my last post, my new ceramic disc caps arrived in the mail and I installed them.  They were 6KV, 75 pF.  During testing into a dummy load at full power, one of them failed.  So, your suggestion is probably a good one but are you suggesting I use ceramic disc caps or doorknobs?  Doorknobs certainly aren't cheap - $20 each and up.  If the problem is that the current capacity is being exceeded then the 30 KV rating won't be of much value.  Can you suggest a specific capacitor to try?  How can I determine the current flow through the capacitors as padders to the pi net input capacitor?  I think I can find room for four small doorknob caps.  The best recommendation I could find for voltage rating of the pi net input capacitor(s) was twice the plate voltage.  That matches the 6 KV rating that Alpha uses in the amps.

73, Floyd - K8AC
[/quote]

Disc ceramic caps don't come with any RF current ratings. BUT, typ the higher V rated disc ceramic also handle more current.  That's why Alpha now uses the 18 kv rated discs.   The RMS RF voltage across the tune cap (and any padders) is aprx .6 X loaded B+.   Dunno what the loaded B+ is on that amp, but lets assume 2200 vdc loaded.  RMS RF voltage would be   2200  X .6  =  1320 vac. (1866 v  peak).   That 1320 vac will appear across the main air variable tune cap..and also all the padders..since they are all in parallel.   A 75 pf cap at 1.8 mhz has a XC of  1179 ohms.

1320 Vac / 1179 ohms = 1.12 amps rms.  Any padder has to be able to handle the 1866 v peak, and also handle the 1.12 amps rms.....AND also NOT drift too much.

The issue with your oem padders is current handling capability, it's not a V issue.

Your oem setup used 5 x 75 pf caps =  375 pf.      The HEC (high energy corp)  HT-50, in 100 pf (now 7.5 kv rated), will handle 3.5 amps CCS  @ 2.0 mhz. it has a TC of N750...(which is gonna be a lot better than any disc cap).

At least with HEC (or centralab) caps,  I know exactly how much current they will handle at any freq...and also their TC.

Ok, let's say you used  4 x 100 pf HEC doorknobs for padders.  Each 100 pf cap has an XC =  884 ohms.   1320 vac rms / 884 ohms =  1.49 amps.   1.49 amps / 3.5 amp rating means the cap is operating at 42% of it's rating.

To mount doorknobs correctly, machine screw one end to the chassis.  Use wide copper strap to connect the hot ends...then off to the bandswitch. I use tin snips to taper the wide copper strap down to a narrow point, to insert and solder into the bandswitch assy.  Ok, done that way, you have heat sinked BOTH sides of each doorknob cap.

Myself, I avoid padding a TUNE cap like the plague on my hb amps.  Padding a LOAD cap is a similar, but different issue. On my hb amps, any 160m LOAD padder is at a 50 ohm point, and the RMS voltages are a LOT lower.  1.5 kw =  275 vrms across 50 ohms. Padder current with the same 100 pf cap would be just  275 / 884 ohms of xc  =  .31 amps rms.   .31 / 3.5 amp rating = 8.8% of it's max rating.

However, the Alpha uses a PI-L..so the load cap is probably at a 200-350 ohm point. 1.5 kw  = 2.45 amps into 250 ohms....= (2.45 amps X 250 ohms =  612 vrms).   612 vrms / 884 ohms of xc = .7 amp rms.  .7 / 3.5 amp max rating = 19.8% of it's max rating.  This is for a 100 pf load cap padder. Typ a higher value is used in some cases.

Those  20+30 kv  rated disc caps are pretty cheap, including shipping from China.

You can do similar calcs if loaded B+ is different from what I assumed.

What you ultimately use will depend on how much room in there you have to play with.
Logged

K8AC

  • Posts: 2065
    • HomeURL
Re: Alpha 8100 problem
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2023, 06:14:47 AM »

VE7RF - thank you for the detailed explanation.  You cleared up several things that I was unaware of.  Since I'm not in a hurry, I think I'll first locate some of the high voltage discs and give that a try.  If that doesn't pan out, I have room in the Alpha for four doorknob caps, but size may limit me to using 7.5 KV for those.  Someone earlier mentioned the 170 pF HEC doorknobs sold by MFJ in their catalog.  I checked the schematics of the AL-1500, etc. and they use two of those as padders in those amps.  I suppose I could use two of those and that might get me close enough. 

In another thread here, we were discussing a problem I had with drifting padder caps in a homebrew L network tuner - I used a 470 pF doorknob.  I replaced that with five 100pF N750 doorknobs mounted exactly as you described and that completely solved that problem. 

Thanks again for your assistance.

73, Floyd - K8AC
Logged
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up