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Author Topic: P5  (Read 1975 times)

N1UR

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Re: P5
« Reply #45 on: February 28, 2023, 04:49:03 AM »

The 3Y0J team are straight up guys, there is no doubt about that.  I just think they grossly over estimated the capability of the smallish Zodiacs they were forced to have because of the sailboat decision and didn't have a modularity plan on what could come ashore.  It was the big diesel gensets or essentially nothing.  And they made a little something out of nothing.  But it wasn't even 10% of the expected Qs. 

Running out of regular gas did them a favor on the decision making in the end.

I think that any group contemplating a major DXpedition with up front fund raising is going back to the drawing board in many aspects after this event.

Ed  N1UR
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K0UA

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Re: P5
« Reply #46 on: February 28, 2023, 06:49:04 AM »

Quote
I think that any group contemplating a major DXpedition with up front fund raising is going back to the drawing board in many aspects after this event.

Truer words were never spoken.

AND I will add that if your DXpedition is going to include FT8, then you should take along someone that actually KNOWS something about FT8 and how to operate it, and includes a plan for network time synch and a backup plan of JTsynch. Otherwise just leave FT8 behind. If it is an afterthought, then just forget it. If you are going to concentrate on the "human modes". Then don't bother.
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73  James K0UA

LA7GIA

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Re: P5
« Reply #47 on: February 28, 2023, 07:00:45 AM »

A lot of guessing here Ed without you knowing any of the details why we cut short the DXped. Do you know the loading capacity of our "small" Milpro zodiak? 1300 kg. And we had 2 large zodiaks and one smaller one. Already from the beginning which you can see on our webside did we envision a stepwise camp build up consisting of 4 steps. With the smallest one being 1500 kg of equipment. Obviuosly the reason for developing a 4 step plan was because we knew we could not gurantee a single step approach like 3Y0Z and 3Y0I. All this info was well known in advance before we went there. The last day when we disassembled the camp we moved roughly 1700 kg of equipment and personell in 5h over a distance of roughly 1,2 km including 150m on beach and 200m in terrain. On Bouvetøya it is all about weather windows independent whether you go with zodiac or helicopter (waves or fog). During 15 days we could only see the peak Olavtoppen once, that was the last day when we pulled out. Good luck with the Heli -  you should bring a zodiak as well.

For the FT8 thing. We did not plan to do FT8, that is the simple reason why we did not bring a sync device. We did have FT8 capability in the K3S though, so later on when we decided to try FT8 , of course our computers where out of sync.

And, ehammers can go ask yourself if anyone is willing to sign on a vessel contract without knowing that they are able to raise the funds needed. If you want to work the DX - donate upfront or stop complaining why the rare ones are not activated.


73 Ken
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K1VSK

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Re: P5
« Reply #48 on: February 28, 2023, 07:16:28 AM »

A lot of guessing here Ed without you knowing any of the details why we cut short the DXped. Do you know the loading capacity of our "small" Milpro zodiak? 1300 kg. And we had 2 large zodiaks and one smaller one. Already from the beginning which you can see on our webside did we envision a stepwise camp build up consisting of 4 steps. With the smallest one being 1500 kg of equipment. Obviuosly the reason for developing a 4 step plan was because we knew we could not gurantee a single step approach like 3Y0Z and 3Y0I. All this info was well known in advance before we went there. The last day when we disassembled the camp we moved roughly 1700 kg of equipment and personell in 5h over a distance of roughly 1,2 km including 150m on beach and 200m in terrain. On Bouvetøya it is all about weather windows independent whether you go with zodiac or helicopter (waves or fog). During 15 days we could only see the peak Olavtoppen once, that was the last day when we pulled out. Good luck with the Heli -  you should bring a zodiak as well.

For the FT8 thing. We did not plan to do FT8, that is the simple reason why we did not bring a sync device. We did have FT8 capability in the K3S though, so later on when we decided to try FT8 , of course our computers where out of sync.

And, ehammers can go ask yourself if anyone is willing to sign on a vessel contract without knowing that they are able to raise the funds needed. If you want to work the DX - donate upfront or stop complaining why the rare ones are not activated.


73 Ken

It’s easy to criticize, particularly by those who have no clue yet seem eager to demonstrate that.
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W2IRT

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Re: P5
« Reply #49 on: February 28, 2023, 07:54:22 AM »

And, ehammers can go ask yourself if anyone is willing to sign on a vessel contract without knowing that they are able to raise the funds needed. If you want to work the DX - donate upfront or stop complaining why the rare ones are not activated.
First off, Ken, glad to see that everybody's back safely and wishing you and the rest of the team a good trip home. Thanks for putting on the best show you could under the circumstances.

But I think the issue of convincing some of the smaller clubs and organizations to donate to major DXpeditions up-front will be hampered by the 3Y0J experience. I understand the sentiment, but in the long run you're quite correct that future operations will still need to pay for the vessel and buy supplies before leaving the dock. That necessity will absolutely need to be conveyed to clubs and sponsors. And other than Bouvet and Peter 1, how many other tent-and-generator entities are there where landing is that difficult? I will be most interested to hear your presentation at Visalia if I can make it, or Adrian's at Xenia.
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Night gathers and now my watch begins. It shall not end until I reach Top of the Honor Roll

Great times are at hand, and soon there will be DX for all—although more for some than for others.

N0UN

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Re: P5
« Reply #50 on: February 28, 2023, 08:21:12 AM »

For the FT8 thing. We did not plan to do FT8, that is the simple reason why we did not bring a sync device. We did have FT8 capability in the K3S though, so later on when we decided to try FT8 , of course our computers where out of sync.

And this is the exact reason some of us DID donate to this DXpedition!

Congratulations on the activation Ken - several others DXpeditioners have attempted Bouvet and were turned away. You & your Team broke through the wall!

Thank you for #337!

NØUN
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KE8KMX

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Re: P5
« Reply #51 on: February 28, 2023, 09:44:55 AM »

For the FT8 thing. We did not plan to do FT8, that is the simple reason why we did not bring a sync device. We did have FT8 capability in the K3S though, so later on when we decided to try FT8 , of course our computers where out of sync.

And this is the exact reason some of us DID donate to this DXpedition!

Congratulations on the activation Ken - several others DXpeditioners have attempted Bouvet and were turned away. You & your Team broke through the wall!

Thank you for #337!

NØUN


They planned to operate FT8.  Some of use donated because they said they were going to use FT8 giving many little pistols a chance to get them in their log. 

Go to their website and look under operations.   
They mention freqs they were going to use, equipment to do so etc.    The term FT8 is used 18 times on this page.

https://www.3y0j.no/bandplan



I think what LA7GIA ment to say was when they realized they were not getting the heavy gensets on the island and came up with a plan B that they decided on the sailboat just to do SSB and CW and did not take a GPS dongle with them.  On island they decided to try some FT8 but there was no way to go  back to the boat and get the dongle to sync their clock and operate FT8 properly.


Gino
« Last Edit: February 28, 2023, 09:47:51 AM by KE8KMX »
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LA7GIA

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Re: P5
« Reply #52 on: February 28, 2023, 09:50:04 AM »

I think you will find it difficult to find operators willing to risk $25,000 from their personal savings just to activate a DXCC? Especially if they know DXers will be reluctant to donate upfront.

We did intend to run FT8 if we were able to land more gear on Bouvetøya as Gino mentioned. However, personal safety will always come first, and the overall risk associated with the excercise of bringing more gear onto, but also OFF the island, during short weather windows was too high. With another upocoming 70 mph storm 4-5 days later this wasnt doable, it would possibly have extended our stay well beyond that storm.
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W2IRT

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Re: P5
« Reply #53 on: February 28, 2023, 12:30:47 PM »

I think you will find it difficult to find operators willing to risk $25,000 from their personal savings just to activate a DXCC? Especially if they know DXers will be reluctant to donate upfront.
This is what I see as the biggest hurdle that will need to be overcome for future DXpeditions. There are a lot of armchair DXpeditioners who like to think they understand the challenges of being somewhere extreme—and who wield a lot of influence, unfortunately—who would curl up in a ball as soon as they had to step off the boat and set up in extreme or even just mere "unpleasant" conditions.
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Night gathers and now my watch begins. It shall not end until I reach Top of the Honor Roll

Great times are at hand, and soon there will be DX for all—although more for some than for others.

N1UR

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Re: P5
« Reply #54 on: February 28, 2023, 01:31:58 PM »

Ken, you as well.  I happen to know quite a bit about Zodiacs and am no stranger to captaining since I hold a British Yachting Association Captain's certification.

So if you had a total of 3 Zodiacs, all capable, why the bail out to swimming ashore in the survival suits?  One got damaged, 2 more available.  All the active pictures showed one good size one (the was assumed to be damaged early on) and one very small one that looked like the one normally on the back of the Sailboat.

Maybe the pictures and videos were deceiving.  It "looked" like sometimes the swells were coming in 4 - 6 ft which I would have thought was the expected norm for the operation given the location.

There were a lot of rumors stating that the small amount of gas was the final blow to ending it.  Understandable, given the situation and circumstances.  But from your response, it doesn't sound like gas supply figured into the decision.

Glad the team is back safe.

Ed  N1UR
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KD8MJR

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Re: P5
« Reply #55 on: February 28, 2023, 01:53:16 PM »

I would also like to know why the DXpedition was cut short.
I have heard three different stories.  I will list them in terms of reliability of the source.

1) We Ran out of our own gas and had to borrow gas from the Boat but they soon became reluctant to give us anymore Gas.

2) They just Ran out of Gas and the Generators where also acting up.

3) They ran out of their own Gas and the boat would not lend them a supply that would make it worth while to stay longer.

I find it Hard to believe that a Honda EU-20si Generator would give problems unless it is kept out in the rain.  Those generators typically can clock over 1000 hours of runtime even in cold weather without needing to be serviced.

Ken it would nice to know why the Dxpedition was cut short.

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KD8MJR

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Re: P5
« Reply #56 on: February 28, 2023, 02:37:48 PM »


This is what I see as the biggest hurdle that will need to be overcome for future DXpeditions. There are a lot of armchair DXpeditioners who like to think they understand the challenges of being somewhere extreme—and who wield a lot of influence, unfortunately—who would curl up in a ball as soon as they had to step off the boat and set up in extreme or even just mere "unpleasant" conditions.

Well just don't include me in your list of Armchair Quarter Backs.
As a grown ass man I got caught abroad with a crew while doing upgrades on a Telecom Satellite dishes uplink system.  We went through a CAT5 Hurricane which was scary as ****.  The Airport was wrecked and we got stuck and then when it was repaired a week later we got ordered to stay until the whole Satellite system was repaired and relinked to the Islands main telecom lines.

It started out as a kind of an adventure but that stopped being fun after a two weeks had passed.
In the end we got stuck for almost 6 months, we had No Electricity or running water as the Grid had to be rebuilt from the ground up.

We endured super hot weather 94-98 deg temps with 98% humidity day in and day out.  All of the tree's had been leveled so the place was like a heated swamp!
 We drank water that was collected from a river and boiled.  We got eaten by Mosquitos until the bumps melted together into something that looked like a rash.  We had to nurse the one Gas Generator we had using Black Market Gas that was 5 times higher than the regular price and also buy Gas from the few car owners who's cars were destroyed by trees etc during the Hurricane.  Have you ever eaten Rice and Canned Bully Beef?  That was just about the only thing we could find to eat for the first month or two.

So yeah I know what it's like to be suffering and that was not for 2 weeks, it was 6 months with no particular end in sight, no way to pull the plug until we got all the parts and got the system back up and running.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2023, 02:54:02 PM by KD8MJR »
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K1VSK

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Re: P5
« Reply #57 on: February 28, 2023, 02:38:42 PM »

….since I hold a British Yachting Association Captain's certification.


Are you referring to the 3000 level of experience or this BYA cert described below? 

“This course provides a short introduction to sail cruising for novices. By the end of the course you will have experienced a yacht under motor and sail, how a yacht is propelled by the wind, sail handling techniques and the basics of crew work.
Pre-Requisites
Pre Course experience: None
Assumed knowledge: None
Minimum duration: 1 days. Often run over a weekend or midweek
Minimum age: None

Course content: Basic knowledge of sea terms and parts of a boat, her rigging and sails, sail handling and basic sail trim.
Ability after course: Understand how the yacht sails, the basic boat dynamics of wind and sails, how to participate in the sailing process and positively contribute to the day’s voyage.”
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N1UR

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Re: P5
« Reply #58 on: February 28, 2023, 03:46:55 PM »

Ha, Nice try.  I have a 10 meter plus off-shore certification.  Have had it now - with 5 year renewals for 15 years.  I do my certifying at their Newport RI partner location since the UK is a hard one to go to for the multi day certifications.

Ed  N1UR
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N1UR

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Re: P5
« Reply #59 on: February 28, 2023, 03:59:40 PM »

More formally called the RYA - Royal Yachting Association.  But everyone over here calls it the BYA.

Ed  N1UR
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