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Author Topic: The Golden Days of DXing or the End of Days?  (Read 2196 times)

N1UR

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Re: The Golden Days of DXing or the End of Days?
« Reply #45 on: February 01, 2023, 03:55:40 AM »

That is not the simplest way to automate.  The simplest way, is to replace the human mouse click with a macro on the operating system, not the FT8 software, that does some type of "Select all" and "clicks" every 30 mins.

The FT8 software would be the same FT8 software currently being used.  Not "Automated FT8 software".

More of a "Dxpeditioner's friend" macro from the receiving end.  Not useful for hunting DX.

Ed N1UR
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W2IRT

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Re: The Golden Days of DXing or the End of Days?
« Reply #46 on: February 01, 2023, 08:02:17 AM »

I downloaded & tested out fully automated FT8 about 2 years ago. I sat there and watched as it kept on giving stations who were calling me their report over, & over & over again. After doing this perhaps 5 times in a row the QSO was FINALLY completed. After 30 minutes of this nonsense I threw in the towel & deleted the program. I think I logged a whopping 5 QSOs in 30 minutes.

I had a similar experience when I played with the full-auto features of -Z  a year ago. However, as stated earlier, the filtering abilities of -Z are incredibly more powerful than the official -X version. This is a screenshot from 20m a few minutes ago. I'm beamed over the pole and engaged filtering for the first two cycles, at the top of the screenshot. I removed filtering for the third cycle and you'll see what I decoded there. The software will also allow you to see only stations who've sent RR73 or calling CQ, but I didn't have that feature engaged for this screenshot.


Bigger version here: https://i.postimg.cc/gJN8MVNV/FT8-Filtering.png

If you're looking for "interesting" stations you want to call you've got about 1.5 seconds to scan the full list after the decodes populate. Instead, I can filter that down into a small handful. So much easier to do it this way. I've just chosen to not use the automated QSOs features of that software. I can get even better granularity by telling it to allow North America, but do not allow the US or Canada, or allow Europe but disregard specific countries. When I was hunting WAS on the WARC bands earlier this month I could, on a band-by-band basis, include only the states I needed. Got it all finished in less than a week that way.

But yeah, the full-auto features are still quite buggy.
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WO7R

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Re: The Golden Days of DXing or the End of Days?
« Reply #47 on: February 01, 2023, 09:22:34 AM »

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More of a "Dxpeditioner's friend" macro from the receiving end.  Not useful for hunting DX.

And Tom just recited how that version of the "full automation" works.  Poorly.

Most of the people who are concerned about this stuff need to install it and try it out.  Those, like Tom, who actually have posted here, point out that at least the GUI Macro stuff is really not very good.  Which is what I would expect.  GUI macros are probably "Turing complete" but they are woefully lacking in function and sophistication.

They are shaky.

Remember, the original GUI stuff was created by an avowed enemy of FT8.  He claimed to use it.  Perhaps other have.  Perhaps some have succeeded  But when I read about people trying that one in here, the theme seems to be:

1.  The installation of the tools is messy.
2.  Actual operations are disappointing.

So, that's not the "future" of this sort of thing.
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KD8MJR

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Re: The Golden Days of DXing or the End of Days?
« Reply #48 on: February 01, 2023, 10:04:36 AM »

1.  The installation of the tools is messy.
2.  Actual operations are disappointing.

Have you even tried this thing?
It installs just as easy as WSTJ-X and the tools are built in.

It's open source so the software is right there door people to modify. Obviously people are modifying it to do whatever they want so I am sure more Automation madness will be coming as time passes.

 Also everyone on here is talking about what a year old version of it did.  Has anyone checked out the latest version.
Most of the Bugs are fixed and I see no one complaining about issues.
He even added the ability to write your own automation scripts, also automatically find a free space to Tx.
I also just checked and it allows you to setup a list of Prefixes that you want to be the primary ones to work.  So the Filtering is not even needed.

Quote
So, that's not the "future" of this sort of thing.

The King has Spoken and yet he just got another 782 downloads in the last 48 Hours.
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W2IRT

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Re: The Golden Days of DXing or the End of Days?
« Reply #49 on: February 01, 2023, 10:56:52 AM »

Also everyone on here is talking about what a year old version of it did.  Has anyone checked out the latest version.
Most of the Bugs are fixed and I see no one complaining about issues.

I'm not sure which software you're talking about, but the one I have, which is capable of full-auto, is WSJT-Z. It's rarely updated, the user base appears to be almost exclusively European, and was buggy as heck in automated mode. A bit of googling this morning has only shown me paid screen macros to automatically push the Enable button as being the alternative Maybe I'm missing something?

But that's all beside the point. I would wager that ease of filtering and a better UI are the biggest motivators for people choosing other FT8 software, not the ability to autofill their logs. Even a couple of hundred automated users from a pool of, what, 50,000+ regular FT8 operators is statistically insignificant. There's no case I can see where there's even the slightest bit of usefulness (aside from the 'this is kinda interesting' factor) for doing that. And as such, branding the entire mode and and all its users as robots talking to other robots is disingenuous at best.
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Great times are at hand, and soon there will be DX for all—although more for some than for others.

VE3VEE

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Re: The Golden Days of DXing or the End of Days?
« Reply #50 on: February 01, 2023, 01:11:26 PM »

Peter W2IRT,

The filtering ability of the software appears to be impressive. I should give it a try one of these days.

P.S. Likely some people may again think this is an unfair advantage. However, you cannot stop progress. Most of us use matches or lighters to create fire vs. bare hands, sticks and rocks. That is unfair advantage, too, but one cannot stop progress.

Marvin VE3VEE
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W2IRT

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Re: The Golden Days of DXing or the End of Days?
« Reply #51 on: February 01, 2023, 01:22:47 PM »

The filtering ability of the software appears to be impressive. I should give it a try one of these days.
P.S. Likely some people may again think this is an unfair advantage. However, you cannot stop progress.
Well if they don't like better filtering they can pound salt, quite frankly. It's legal, it's acceptable for awards, and it not in any kind of morally-grey area. Of course, to each their own and all that. Stay legal, and if you're going to claim an award, play by the published and agreed-upon rules. Good sportsmanship and all that.

Of course, now I've given away my secret weapon for all to see I'm gotta get whooped in my own quests now <grin>.

Most of us use matches or lighters to create fire vs. bare hands, sticks and rocks.

When I'm out camping I still use a fire steel to start my campfires. And if that doesn't work I keep two butane three-flame cigar lighters in the Jeep.  ;D ;D ;D
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Night gathers and now my watch begins. It shall not end until I reach Top of the Honor Roll

Great times are at hand, and soon there will be DX for all—although more for some than for others.

WO7R

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Re: The Golden Days of DXing or the End of Days?
« Reply #52 on: February 01, 2023, 01:46:47 PM »

Quote
The King has Spoken and yet he just got another 782 downloads in the last 48 Hours.

And all are cheating according to the non-participants like you.  Sure they are.

W2IRT does use this stuff.  Have you read what he says?

If you do FT8, you don't have to use that software to imagine its utility or lack thereof.  I have actually named a scenario where I thought it might be useful.  Maybe there are more.  But frankly, at present, it's a thin crop.

Software typically has a lot of features.  It doesn't mean all of them get used or used every day.

I've used 10s of thousands of software packages in my life.  I've made a very good living predicting what code looks like from program behavior (had to -- projects I worked on were large scale enterprise stuff where _nobody_ sees even 1/10 of the code by volume).  It's not perfect, but I do know a lot about software behavior just from watching people use it.

I don't see evidence of a lot of automation in actual use.  I'm sure it happens.  But it is not an every day, obvious thing.  If it was common, we'd see lots of obvious, broken 'bot activity daily.  We just don't.  Software isn't that good at these kinds of things.

The number of occasions where full automation is even useful are also far less than you, in your fear and loathing, seem capable of conceiving.  Pro tip:  People don't do what isn't useful even if it is possible.

Suggestion: Leave the enforcement of the rules to those participating.  Bring you breathless scenarios to the League.  There are channels.  The rest of us aren't impressed.

Have you noticed that your ranting has not been impressing others?  That's the way FT8 rhetoric has gone from day one.

You guys are perpetually sure Terrible Things Are Happening.  But, you don't really know what's actually going on because you don't use it enough to know.
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KJ4Z

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Re: The Golden Days of DXing or the End of Days?
« Reply #53 on: February 01, 2023, 01:56:10 PM »

I don't see evidence of a lot of automation in actual use.  I'm sure it happens.  But it is not an every day, obvious thing.  If it was common, we'd see lots of obvious, broken 'bot activity daily.  We just don't.  Software isn't that good at these kinds of things.

I'm not so sure of that.  I have no proof, but there are some calls that seem just a bit too omnipresent on the bands.  Calls that seem to be active whenever there is propagation, calls that call me incessantly whenever I first CQ on a new band.  Domestic stations that just won't let a QSO go, even after I've sent my RR73 5 or 6 times and we both have good signals.  My friends and I occasionally discuss stations that we're pretty sure are bots, and we are not FT8-haters (although I'm becoming disenchanted but that's different).  I don't think you need to be a conspiracy theorist to believe there's probably a fair few bots roaming the bands out there.

Full disclosure: I don't really care either way.  When the entire QSO structure and flow makes it impossible to discern whether there is a human at the other end, does it even matter?  Not to me.
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K1VSK

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Re: The Golden Days of DXing or the End of Days?
« Reply #54 on: February 01, 2023, 02:01:28 PM »

I don't see evidence of a lot of automation in actual use.  I'm sure it happens.  But it is not an every day, obvious thing.  If it was common, we'd see lots of obvious, broken 'bot activity daily.  We just don't.  Software isn't that good at these kinds of things.

I'm not so sure of that.  I have no proof, but there are some calls that seem just a bit too omnipresent on the bands.  Calls that seem to be active whenever there is propagation, calls that call me incessantly whenever I first CQ on a new band.  Domestic stations that just won't let a QSO go, even after I've sent my RR73 5 or 6 times and we both have good signals.  My friends and I occasionally discuss stations that we're pretty sure are bots, and we are not FT8-haters (although I'm becoming disenchanted but that's different).  I don't think you need to be a conspiracy theorist to believe there's probably a fair few bots roaming the bands out there.

Full disclosure: I don't really care either way.  When the entire QSO structure and flow makes it impossible to discern whether there is a human at the other end, does it even matter?  Not to me.

We’ve all seen and read posts by people who wrote quite clearly that they unashamedly do that. It’s clearly not conjecture. Condoning, ignoring or excusing it is a character thing.
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WO7R

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Re: The Golden Days of DXing or the End of Days?
« Reply #55 on: February 01, 2023, 02:47:47 PM »

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We’ve all seen and read posts by people who wrote quite clearly that they unashamedly do that.

Could you quote, by call sign?

The only one I can remember is the guy who created the first set of macros.  He hated FT8 and created those macros so that conversations like this would take place.

How much he ever actually did is not easy to know since he had a bigger chip on his shoulder than even most of the folks here.

If there are others, let's talk about them, by call, so we can get a bead on "how many" and what they got from it.

Because, I really don't see it as terribly useful as it so far exists.  It's not like there's a complex AI machine behind these yet and that would be what it would take to really do interesting things.  Simply scarfing up whomever is there, even filtered a bit, is not going to turn out to be very robust or very successful.  Unless you just want to work JAs, Ws, and DLs all day.
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KJ4Z

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Re: The Golden Days of DXing or the End of Days?
« Reply #56 on: February 01, 2023, 02:59:30 PM »

Simply scarfing up whomever is there, even filtered a bit, is not going to turn out to be very robust or very successful.  Unless you just want to work JAs, Ws, and DLs all day.

https://sourceforge.net/p/wsjt-z/wiki/Other/

Note the "Pounce" setting.  WSJT-Z is capable of sitting there quietly listening until the call (or possibly calls?) you want appears, then pouncing on them immediately.  Could easily be deployed to go after that AP you have seen spots for buzzing around at 2 AM.  Used in this context it might be virtually undetectable.  I have never seen it in operation so I don't know how well it handles errors.
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W2IRT

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Re: The Golden Days of DXing or the End of Days?
« Reply #57 on: February 01, 2023, 05:19:13 PM »

Note the "Pounce" setting.  WSJT-Z is capable of sitting there quietly listening until the call (or possibly calls?) you want appears, then pouncing on them immediately.
That's actually a handy function, but, like anything else in life, it can be used for good or evil. I've used it when I'm sitting there watching everything but want to make sure I don't miss my turn to call (in essence, I'm still initiating the transmission and I'm at the control point), but I'd never use it unattended. Others very well may.

But in the end it really doesn't matter in the slightest. I guess "Some People" are content filling up their logs automatically and aren't paper chasers. More power to 'em, I guess. But I maintain that if bots were the rule and not the ultra-rare exception it would be very easy to see who the offenders were.

Fact is, in the grand scheme of things, nobody cares. If it's illegal (i.e. nobody at the control point), our FCC of 2023 will do precisely...nothing, and the League doesn't have the manpower or likely the will to actively chase the 'bot operators and disallow their DXCC standings. The rules and regulations are clear, and we, as DXers, can only do our best to follow them as best we can. Set an example of good operating practices, and so on. It's not my concern if you're running full-auto, but if you are I probably won't call you.

But here's the dilema; a nice fat juicy new DXCC entity shows up on 6m, and his operating pattern is suspiciously bot-like. You need that entity, he's loud, nobody's really calling him and you know you could get him in one call. Do you call him? I'll tell you right now, I'd do it in a heartbeat, log him, upload to LoTW and do the ZebraDance™ when it posts as a new one, since I don't know for certain what the other op was doing. Now if he boasts on his QRZ page or in the pages of CQ or QST that that's how he operated, that's a horse of a different kettle of fish.
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Great times are at hand, and soon there will be DX for all—although more for some than for others.

KJ4Z

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Re: The Golden Days of DXing or the End of Days?
« Reply #58 on: February 01, 2023, 05:35:54 PM »

I maintain that if bots were the rule and not the ultra-rare exception it would be very easy to see who the offenders were.

I respect your opinion but I just don't see how you can make such an assertion with confidence.  What would it look like if well-behaved bots were rampant?  I maintain that you would not be able to detect them by their behavior over the air, especially if they were deployed strategically.  Though I acknowledge it's speculative on my part.

16,148 copies of the latest version of WSJT-Z have been downloaded.  For ham radio software, that's a blockbuster.  Are they all there just for the filtering?  Call it Checkhov's Checkbox.  The automation features would not be there unless they were being used.

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W2IRT

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Re: The Golden Days of DXing or the End of Days?
« Reply #59 on: February 01, 2023, 06:02:59 PM »

16,148 copies of the latest version of WSJT-Z have been downloaded.  For ham radio software, that's a blockbuster.  Are they all there just for the filtering?  Call it Checkhov's Checkbox.  The automation features would not be there unless they were being used.

The fact is the current version hiccups a lot in full-auto, or at least it did when I played with it last summer. I can say with certainty that it required human assistance regularly when I last experimented with it. Wrong macros being the worst, and no way to turn off the automation after a predefined time. I think it ran about 20 or so minutes before it started to go nuts, and QSOs stopped being moved across to my logger. If someone feels ambitious and wants to mess with it be my guest; me, I'm just glad I can use the advanced filtering and I'll leave it at that. When I feel the urge to play radio, I sit my bum in the chair and actually play radio with my own fingers.
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Night gathers and now my watch begins. It shall not end until I reach Top of the Honor Roll

Great times are at hand, and soon there will be DX for all—although more for some than for others.
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