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Author Topic: The Golden Days of DXing or the End of Days?  (Read 2192 times)

KJ4Z

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Re: The Golden Days of DXing or the End of Days?
« Reply #60 on: February 01, 2023, 06:16:29 PM »

In the summer of 2019 I was curious about whether FT8 could be automated with a view to a hypothetical DXpedition-in-a-box. I took the then-current WSJT-X which I think was written in C and Fortran, and added a little API so that I could write the control logic in python.  It worked fine, and once a few key functions were exposed via API, any python jockey (or bash scripter, or powershell guru I assume) could have made its behavior arbitrarily sophisticated, cross-referenced what it heard with a database, and so on.  At that point, WSJT-X was just a dumb conduit.

Having satisfied myself that it was possible, I completely lost interest.  All the same, I've heard the word "progress" used a lot in this thread, and the logical progression of this branch of technology is full automation.  I view it as now inevitable.
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KD8MJR

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Re: The Golden Days of DXing or the End of Days?
« Reply #61 on: February 01, 2023, 08:11:52 PM »

In the summer of 2019 I was curious about whether FT8 could be automated with a view to a hypothetical DXpedition-in-a-box. I took the then-current WSJT-X which I think was written in C and Fortran, and added a little API so that I could write the control logic in python.  It worked fine, and once a few key functions were exposed via API, any python jockey (or bash scripter, or powershell guru I assume) could have made its behavior arbitrarily sophisticated, cross-referenced what it heard with a database, and so on.  At that point, WSJT-X was just a dumb conduit.

Having satisfied myself that it was possible, I completely lost interest.  All the same, I've heard the word "progress" used a lot in this thread, and the logical progression of this branch of technology is full automation.  I view it as now inevitable.

Unfortunately that is very true.  Humans will always seek the easiest path to obtain a goal, it's in our nature.  Even those who abstain now will probably start to use it so as to keep up the Greenie points later on.   It's like the Leaderboard effect when it's turned on at Clublog.

In a few years when this hits it's peak people will start to realize that the Hobby is mostly about computers just exchanging notes.  At that point interest to get into the hobby will be almost zero.

 I would have never have gotten into Ham Radio if all I had seen was a bunch of text scrolling on someones PC screen.  I got into it because I was intrigued by the idea of having a conversation with a person in a country that I would never be able to visit. I got into the DXCC because this was the next logical step in trying to talk to people in every country around the world.

It's funny going onto Youtube and typing in FT8WW and seeing the boat load of FT8 recordings.  Who is interested in that?  I love videos where operators are talking to Dxpeditions on SSB and getting a bit of the story about what conditions are like where they are.  That is why even N2AJ sat phone call to 3Y0J has gotten so much attention.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2023, 08:21:35 PM by KD8MJR »
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K6JH

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Re: The Golden Days of DXing or the End of Days?
« Reply #62 on: February 01, 2023, 11:00:29 PM »

I recall a few years ago people were complaining about computer generated and decoded CW and the likelihood of computer generated QSOs. Now the complaint has migrated to FT8 as the CW decoding software didn’t mature far enough to handle real human fists.

Rejoice that technology has moved this far. If you enjoy CW, or SSB or AM, or RTTY, or whatever floats your boat go enjoy it and move on. Just don’t use spark or everyone will break down your door to shut you down.
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Jim K6JH

W2IRT

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Re: The Golden Days of DXing or the End of Days?
« Reply #63 on: February 01, 2023, 11:20:24 PM »

All the same, I've heard the word "progress" used a lot in this thread, and the logical progression of this branch of technology is full automation. I view it as now inevitable.
Even if you're right, and I would not bet on that happening—at least in any great numbers, remember when PSK-31 was the cat's meow? It was the must-have digital mode at the time. I even worked an ATNO on it (Macquarrie Island). Then "brag tape hell" set in, and it became agonizing to use. Fed up DXers returned to RTTY for all their digital QSO needs, thankfully. Then FT8 came along and took all of PSK's thunder and offered the error correction and elimination of QRM that RTTY lacked, and here we all are.

But for the sake of discussion, let's say you're right, and 'bots do become the Next Great Thing. Something newer and shinier will just as surely come along, perhaps enabling freeform messages with deeper minimum S/N decodes and shorter TX times, and that will displace FT8 once the bot thing becomes boring—or everybody's computer has finally worked everybody else's computer. It's the nature of the beast. Give me a big enough reason to change up something I'm doing and I'll give it a whirl. If it proves advantageous in advancing my DXing goals I'll jump in with both feet, as I did PSK-31, JT65, JT9, and then FT8 and FT4.

Real hams will find a valid use case for whatever comes later. DXers will adapt it to make working toward their goals an easier task, and younger hams will spread it far and wide. By then the Boomers will be gone and the sandbox will become all theirs. Just as we now have the maker movement, POTA/SOTA/VOTA/*OTA, and things that weren't things ten years ago, in ten years from now we'll have the beginnings of something else new and exciting. Maybe CW will die out, maybe it won't. But all us OTs today will be too busy being worm food to worry about it, or else living in long-term care facilities with no antennas of our own. The next gen will figure it out. I have confidence that they will, but I know it will evolve into something that would be unrecognizable today. And who's to say that will be a Bad Thing™?
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Night gathers and now my watch begins. It shall not end until I reach Top of the Honor Roll

Great times are at hand, and soon there will be DX for all—although more for some than for others.

KJ4Z

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Re: The Golden Days of DXing or the End of Days?
« Reply #64 on: February 01, 2023, 11:40:51 PM »

... And who's to say that will be a Bad Thing™?

Well for my part, I never said any of this was a Bad Thing.  In point of fact, I just find FT8 and its ecosystem to be technically interesting and operationally boring.  But I never said bad.

At 41, I still hope to see more developments, and I am absolutely open to new modes.  I just am hoping they will be more interesting to use.  One of my buddies has been playing around with VarAC.  I haven't looked into it yet because it seems to be partially proprietary but maybe I will at some point.
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WO7R

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Re: The Golden Days of DXing or the End of Days?
« Reply #65 on: February 02, 2023, 12:05:12 AM »

Quote
FT4

FT4 is interesting for this discussion in many respects.  It is the FT8 replacement (or, partial replacement) that failed.

First off, it was designed as a contest mode.  In its very early beta tests, it wasn't even time synchronized.  But that failed and they went with the shorter interval that one might have thought would interest contesters.

However, so far, it hasn't worked.  Overall, FT4 is slower than FT8.  There are too many repeated sequences.  The error correction actually works against it and it seems that seven seconds just isn't enough time, under most band conditions, to get every message there with reliability.

Can you work folks with FT4?  Of course you can.  I certainly have.  But it has really failed to catch on for contesting because it isn't reliable enough.  Oddly, RTTY, despite no error correction, has a higher actual rate.  So, FT4 founders.

Meanwhile, as long as FT8 finishes faster because few to no repeats, FT4 will flounder around because it almost always has repeats.

Maybe at the sunspot peak it will be discovered to be reliable.  If so, we'll see a lot of frantic FT4 for a while.  But, unless that happens, the "next great thing" after FT8 isn't ever going to be FT4.

The thing is, we can't always tell, prospectively, what hams will like and use.  I am not interested in fully automated FT8.  It's not just because of DXCC rules (not every award out there is DXCC).  It's because it just doesn't work as far as getting real, serious DX.  It is way too good at getting stuff in the log I am not interested in working.  It is not smart enough to break through the FT8 pileups (yes, that's what they are) when something sufficiently rare shows up.

Do I know this from personal experience?  No, but I know how I use the current software and a great deal about what automation can and can't do.  It just isn't going to work for me because it can't and won't do some of the things I do with the regular WSJT-X FT8 for pileups.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2023, 12:07:33 AM by WO7R »
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K7KB

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Re: The Golden Days of DXing or the End of Days?
« Reply #66 on: February 02, 2023, 01:13:16 AM »

Exactly what I was thinking Larry. Automated FT8 will never, in and of itself, get you on the Honor Roll. You still need the skillset of CW, SSB, RTTY, and others, plus the time you put in your station and your own personal skillset to get you there. FT8/FT4 is just another tool in the arsenal, not a replacement for any other mode. The deserving are the ones who embrace new as well as old technology.
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W1VT

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Re: The Golden Days of DXing or the End of Days?
« Reply #67 on: February 02, 2023, 05:28:12 AM »

I see it like cheating in golf.  There are plenty of ways to cheat because most of the time you have no idea what someone is doing in the woods or sand bunkers and it would slow down the game too much to enforce the rules all the time.  Fortunately, unless you are playing for money, nobody cares.  Everyone cares about pace of play because nobody wants to be stuck behind a slow foursome.

When it gets to the pro level things get interesting.  Some folks are more equal than others.  The fans of Tiger Woods moved a huge boulder out of the way for him!  The rules said they could do that.  If it moved it was obviously a moveable object!
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N5INP

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Re: The Golden Days of DXing or the End of Days?
« Reply #68 on: February 02, 2023, 08:37:36 AM »

I finally got on ChatGPT after weeks of trying. Chat GPT (Generative Pre-Trained Transformer )is the latest AI that has got a lot of news coverage recently.

I asked it this question -

"Since the ham radio mode called FT8 is very efficient, will it lead to the demise of ham radio?

ChatGPT replied -

"The use of the FT8 mode in ham radio is not likely to lead to the demise of ham radio as a hobby or a mode of communication. Ham radio is a diverse and dynamic hobby with many different modes of operation, and the use of FT8 is just one of many options available to ham radio operators.

FT8 has become popular because of its efficiency and effectiveness in allowing ham radio operators to communicate over long distances with low power levels. However, it is just one of many modes available to ham radio operators, and it is not likely to replace other modes that are used for different purposes or in different conditions.

Additionally, ham radio is a hobby that is constantly evolving and adapting to new technologies and changes in the communication landscape. The use of FT8 is simply one example of this evolution and adaptation, and it is not likely to lead to the demise of ham radio. Instead, it is likely to continue to be an important and valuable tool for ham radio operators in the future."

I think that's a damn good answer.
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AF5CC

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Re: The Golden Days of DXing or the End of Days?
« Reply #69 on: February 02, 2023, 08:52:49 AM »

OH NO!!!! We are living in a Cyberpunk dystopian ham radio society. Never thought I would live long enough to make it to dystopia!

73 John AF5CC
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WO7R

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Re: The Golden Days of DXing or the End of Days?
« Reply #70 on: February 02, 2023, 09:05:08 AM »

Quote
Unfortunately that is very true.  Humans will always seek the easiest path to obtain a goal, it's in our nature.  Even those who abstain now will probably start to use it so as to keep up the Greenie points later on.   It's like the Leaderboard effect when it's turned on at Clublog.

This argument is as common as it is silly.  Suppose some rare DX shows up on a frequency you happen to be on.  It CQs.  You work it, you're cleanly in the log.

Do you ostentatiously say, "no, that was too easy.  I will wait for a gigantic pileup to form and then work it the right way."

Some idiot probably does that.  It's a big world.  The rest of us go "is that guy crazy"?

Sometimes, DXing is hard, sometimes it is easy.  Nobody volunteers for hard.  But, retrospectively, there is a group of hams that celebrate it.  And, forget the easy ones.

There are always things making DXing harder and making it easier.  But the "I've got mine" crowd never wants it to be easier for someone else.

Tiresome buncha Karens.

Quote
In a few years when this hits it's peak people will start to realize that the Hobby is mostly about computers just exchanging notes.  At that point interest to get into the hobby will be almost zero.

This is frankly dumb.  If people get tired of FT8 (no evidence of that yet), they'll move on to something else.  Moreover, you are in control of your own station.  Suppose that every DX station goes full automation.  But you don't like it and so you don't.

Has FT8 become any less fun for you?  Maybe.  Maybe you don't care because you're not a Karen and are policing only your own behavior.  Which hasn't changed.

FT8, as shipped by WSTJ-X anyway, is not a conversation any more than a typical contest QSO is now a conversation.  In a serious contest station those are mostly computers talking to computers, too.  I don't see any fall off in contesting activity.  I've been at a contest superstation.  There are CW keys there.  You use them about 2 per cent of the time.  It's mostly by keyboard.  Some stations will have the CW "reader" software configured to help you.  There is SupercheckPartial to help you.  There are spots, pretty darn accurate, to tell you what the call is -- a tremendous help in decoding.  The computer may not, quite, be the one decoding, but this isn't the '50s and you aren't sitting there, all alone, with nothing but your ears to guide you.  Too many points at stake for that.

Before you whine about ". . .but but I hear it" and so on, remember that as like or not, you got there because of a spot.  A spot that may well have come from the reverse beacon network spot.  From one computer that was able (that time) to decode the DX CQ without human intervention, deliver it to the internet without human intervention and it shows up on your "needed" feed without your intervention because you set it up to do so months ago.  Yes, you make the QSO without the computer, sort of, but everything else happened without you.  Which was once decried as a terrible thing.

The hobby is hopelessly tied up in computers already.  People used to rail against spotting networks, especially over the internet.  To this day, there are contest categories where people promise not to use them.  But there is no contest I know of where they are prohibited altogether.  If there is, you'll never see me entering a log.  The fact is, especially when DXing, we have made our peace with spotting networks.  Nobody fights about it anymore and those that think it ruined DXing are off taking photos or something.  The rest of us persevere.

If fully automated FT8 takes over (which I still take leave to doubt), I think you'll find plenty who don't care for it and their enjoyment won't change.  The presence of a software feature doesn't mean it gets used.  There's a ton of stuff in Excel that nobody gets around to using except statisticians or some such.  I think you'll find that if every expedition insists on being fully automated, the supposedly sacred rules will change.  And, we'll all go on, with Digital Karens wringing their hands in futility.

Nothing has ruined DXing.  Each new generation embraces what the elders are "sure" will ruin it.  SSB already ruined DXing.  DX Nets already ruined DXing.  Spotting networks already ruined DXing.  FT8 is surely ruining DXing.  And hams are going to come to their senses and go back to RTTY, no spotting, no nets (that one mostly happened), and AM.  Sure we are.

Strangely enough, DX endures all these fatal blows.
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KD8MJR

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Re: The Golden Days of DXing or the End of Days?
« Reply #71 on: February 02, 2023, 09:32:17 AM »

And he wonders why no one reads his post or replies to him :P
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WO7R

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Re: The Golden Days of DXing or the End of Days?
« Reply #72 on: February 02, 2023, 11:18:44 AM »

Quote
And he wonders why no one reads his post or replies to him

I guess you've never seen a fleshed out argument before.

Not everything in the world is sound bites, my friend.

I also find the longer posts actually cut down on the back and forth.  When you anticipate counter-arguments, a lot of them don't happen.

This ain't my first rodeo on the internet.  Been at this since the USNET days.  Learned a few things.
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W2IRT

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Re: The Golden Days of DXing or the End of Days?
« Reply #73 on: February 02, 2023, 02:03:22 PM »

Been at this since the USNET days.  Learned a few things.
Usenet. The spark gap era of digital arguments :)
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Night gathers and now my watch begins. It shall not end until I reach Top of the Honor Roll

Great times are at hand, and soon there will be DX for all—although more for some than for others.

KJ4Z

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Re: The Golden Days of DXing or the End of Days?
« Reply #74 on: February 02, 2023, 02:08:59 PM »

Been at this since the USNET days.  Learned a few things.
Usenet. The spark gap era of digital arguments :)

alt.progress.sucks
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