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Author Topic: The Golden Days of DXing or the End of Days?  (Read 2193 times)

KE4KY

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Re: The Golden Days of DXing or the End of Days?
« Reply #90 on: February 06, 2023, 05:16:37 AM »

nostalgia:
a sentimental longing or wistful affection for the past, typically for a period or place with happy personal associations

sentimentality:
the quality or state of being sentimental, especially to excess

Are these the Golden Days of DX-ing??

Individually, a moving target and depends on where one might be in the hobby of chasing DX. Many take it to the extreme, others just enjoy the diversion from day to day life.

YMMV.
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WA2VUY

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Re: The Golden Days of DXing or the End of Days?
« Reply #91 on: February 07, 2023, 12:25:46 PM »

9K2HN reached #1 HR with 3Y0J contact, he said it took him about 30 years.
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AA6YQ

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Re: The Golden Days of DXing or the End of Days?
« Reply #92 on: February 08, 2023, 08:49:27 PM »

9K2HN reached #1 HR with 3Y0J contact, he said it took him about 30 years.

It took me 18 years to get from a Novice ticket in 1990 to the top of the Mixed and SSB Honor Rolls. I still need P5 for CW, and 4 entities for Digital Honor Roll - one of which is Bouvet.
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N4UM

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Re: The Golden Days of DXing or the End of Days?
« Reply #93 on: February 09, 2023, 06:01:33 PM »

This is not sour grapes.  I confess from the beginning that I'm not very good at DXing. I've never been more than a halfhearted, luke warm DX chaser in my 69 years on the air but the recent on-the-air antics of the deliberate and not-so-deliberate QRMers and their self appointed detractors (who manage to generate even worse QRM) during the 3Y0J DXpedition have pretty much turned me off on this aspect of the hobby.  The human race has always contained a certain percentage of  obnoxious sickos, stupid individuals, and those who don't know the meaning of “UP.”  I suspect those percentages haven't really changed since the dawn of time and I am reasonably certain they have not changed since the beginnings of ham radio.  I hate to sound like the curmudgeon that I am but I blame a lot of the pathological DXing behavior we witness on the air today on the internet.  The internet has created a critical mass of sickos and idiots by providing for the like-unminded a place to congregate. Back in the middle ages of ham radio we listened, we listened and we listened some more.  (Granted, it was because we had to if we wanted to work DX.) When we heard something rare we tried to work it and if it was really rare we might call a friend on the phone and tip him off.  We might have reported it to a DX column that probably wouldn't be published for days or weeks. WE DID NOT INSTANTANEOUSLY BROADCAST THE INFORMATION THAT MAY HAVE TAKEN US HOURS OF CAREFUL LISTENING TO GENERATE TO THE ENTIRE WORLD such as is done today via DX clusters on the internet.  I guess we were stingier back then. Today, there's no real need to even listen.  Just turn your computer on and thousands of DX tidbits materialize on the screen in front of you and simultaneously on the SCREENS OF THOUSANDS OF OTHER NON-LISTENERS.  You don't even have to copy the call.  It's all right in front of you...call, time, frequency and comments.  You don' t really have to know anything about propagation.  You don't have to know when to listen or where to listen.  Listen?  We don't need no stinkin listening! No wonder the whole damn world shows up and things go all to hell.  It's as bad as FT-8!  Don't get me wrong.  I think FT-8 is stupid and not for me.  BUT, then again I feel the same way about Karaoke, Golf, Curling and Bingo and lots of people enjoy those things – and should be allowed to.  It's still a somewhat free country and people should be be allowed to do what they like so long as it doesn't infringe on others.  I feel the same way about modern day DXing.  If it floats your boat, more power to you. (You're gonna need it.)  3Y0J has been a learning experience for me and I'm grateful for that. I lied earlier... there may be just the slightest touch of sour grapes in this rant.
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W2IRT

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Re: The Golden Days of DXing or the End of Days?
« Reply #94 on: February 09, 2023, 06:23:06 PM »

I guess we were stingier back then. Today, there's no real need to even listen.  Just turn your computer on and thousands of DX tidbits materialize on the screen in front of you and simultaneously on the SCREENS OF THOUSANDS OF OTHER NON-LISTENERS.  You don't even have to copy the call.  It's all right in front of you...call, time, frequency and comments.

You still need to be able to operate, but yes, monitoring the bands for hours on end is not really a thing any more, unless that's what you enjoy. We're in the information age, and have been for at least 25 years. From packet to telnet clusters and beyond. Do you think that back in the 60s and 70s, had that information been available back then, even with the difficult licensing, 20 WPM code and all that, that folks wouldn't have gone crazy working more bands and modes? It just is what it is, and folks are free to set their own limitations.

But those who don't know how to operate, they'll always lose out on the DX, and it's been that way forever. Even on FT8, where you have to understand the software, the radio interface, and how to call properly. It's just all different now than it was in the Hollow State era. Neither better nor worse, just different, and that was the point of the story I posted to lead off the topic.

I'm fine with the DX information firehose in principle, but the implementation is grossly lacking. Why the cluster network still runs with anonymous entries is beyond me. There's still no excellent source of actionable local intelligence for ferreting out legitimate spots from a sea of robotic noise. Some might even argue it's harder now because of too much information.

As for the pathological behaviour, just blame society in general and the dissolution of civilized discourse and conduct. It's all about the ME, never about the US. I got into DXing with just 100W and a wire out the window of my apartment in Queens back in 2001, and didn't get my first tower until 2005. DXpeditions were just as bad then as they are now in terms of DQRM. The rarer the entity the worse it was. PW0T was the first DXpedition that I really chased and it was horrible for the first week. I think the biggest zoos I've personally witnessed were Scarborough Reef in 2007 and IIRC either Glorioso or TO4E on Juan de Nova. Biggies like Peter 1, Malpelo, Heard Island, and Amsterdam had their problems but because they were loud and on multiple bands and modes at the same time, the problems subsided quickly. Generally the weaker the DX, and the more uncertaity about ever getting permission or having the ability to go back there, the crazier people become.
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Night gathers and now my watch begins. It shall not end until I reach Top of the Honor Roll

Great times are at hand, and soon there will be DX for all—although more for some than for others.

K1VSK

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Re: The Golden Days of DXing or the End of Days?
« Reply #95 on: February 09, 2023, 06:48:52 PM »

Quote
. There's still all about the ME, never about the US.
That concisely sums up how some rationalize the lack of consideration we see now as well as the attitude expressed previously about limiting qsos to only ATNOs.
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AA6YQ

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Re: The Golden Days of DXing or the End of Days?
« Reply #96 on: February 10, 2023, 12:43:32 PM »

Today, there's no real need to even listen.  Just turn your computer on and thousands of DX tidbits materialize on the screen in front of you and simultaneously on the SCREENS OF THOUSANDS OF OTHER NON-LISTENERS.  You don't even have to copy the call.  It's all right in front of you...call, time, frequency and comments.  You don' t really have to know anything about propagation.  You don't have to know when to listen or where to listen.  Listen?  We don't need no stinkin listening!

This is complete nonsense. Modern DXing tools - including the DX Cluster network - can help you identify the operating patterns of the DX you seek, and propagation openings between the DX you seek and your QTH. They make listening more effective by revealing when and where to listen productively.

Try educating yourself; read Bob W9KNI's The Complete DXer
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AF5CC

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Re: The Golden Days of DXing or the End of Days?
« Reply #97 on: February 10, 2023, 12:53:56 PM »

Why do they seem to empty the asylums everytime Bouvet comes on the air?  I don't think I have ever heard DQRM this bad for most other DXPeditions!  Plenty of tuner uppers on their frequency on CW, people on the wrong sequence on FT8 so I couldn't hear the 3Y0 even if I had copy on them, and on and on. 

I wasn't on the air when 3Y5X was operating but I understand the DQRM for them was terrible also.  I know one ham that quit HF over that one and concentrated on VHF for 15 years or so.  I thought I worked 3Y0C but it turned out the be a pirate (another loony).

I don't remember it being this bad with North Korea was on the air!

73 John AF5CC
« Last Edit: February 10, 2023, 01:06:49 PM by AF5CC »
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W1VT

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Re: The Golden Days of DXing or the End of Days?
« Reply #98 on: February 10, 2023, 12:58:40 PM »

I'm still finding plenty of DX to work on CW.  I've been able to work  W1AW/KH6 on four bands, 80/40/20/15M. 
They also had great signal on 10 SSB, so I've now worked W1AW/KH6 on 5 bands!

I don't do much of phone DX, but I've noticed that stations with decent signals, like 100 watts from a great location have deep pileups when conditions are good. Good to hear all the activity.

Zak W1VT
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K7JQ

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Re: The Golden Days of DXing or the End of Days?
« Reply #99 on: February 10, 2023, 02:34:56 PM »

Today, there's no real need to even listen.  Just turn your computer on and thousands of DX tidbits materialize on the screen in front of you and simultaneously on the SCREENS OF THOUSANDS OF OTHER NON-LISTENERS.  You don't even have to copy the call.  It's all right in front of you...call, time, frequency and comments.  You don' t really have to know anything about propagation.  You don't have to know when to listen or where to listen.  Listen?  We don't need no stinkin listening!

This is complete nonsense. Modern DXing tools - including the DX Cluster network - can help you identify the operating patterns of the DX you seek, and propagation openings between the DX you seek and your QTH. They make listening more effective by revealing when and where to listen productively.


I agree with N4UM. I tried FT8, and don't understand its appeal, but to each his own...operate what you enjoy.

How does a DX cluster "help you identify the operating *patterns* of the DX"? They'll show you what DX is on and what frequency, but after that it's up to you to HEAR it and determine the (if operating split) pattern of where they're listening. The RBN can tell you if you're being heard in various spots around the world, but won't guarantee that the station you want to work will hear you. Despite propagation and a DX cluster, if you can't hear them, you can't work them. Oh wait...you don't have to hear them with FT8. And you don't need a DX cluster...it's right there on your WSJT-X screen. Ain't technology great ;)?
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AA6YQ

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Re: The Golden Days of DXing or the End of Days?
« Reply #100 on: February 10, 2023, 03:34:48 PM »

How does a DX cluster "help you identify the operating *patterns* of the DX"? They'll show you what DX is on and what frequency, but after that it's up to you to HEAR it and determine the (if operating split) pattern of where they're listening. The RBN can tell you if you're being heard in various spots around the world, but won't guarantee that the station you want to work will hear you. Despite propagation and a DX cluster, if you can't hear them, you can't work them. Oh wait...you don't have to hear them with FT8. And you don't need a DX cluster...it's right there on your WSJT-X screen. Ain't technology great ;)?

I'm missing one DXCC entity in CW, and 4 DXCC entities (including Bouvet) in Digital. To stay sharp between DXpeditions and better understand the mode, I've set an objective of confirming all 340 DXCC entities in FT8. In the spring of 2021, I was pursuing an FT8 QSO with ZC4GR. Watch this presentation I gave to the 2021 International DX Convention

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scnHv5aGYhM

Start at 12:45Z to see how the SpotCollector component of the free-ware DXLab Suite showed me

1. where and when ZC4GR had been QRV

2. where and when stations near my QTH had spotted stations near ZC4GR (e.g. stations in 5B, SV, TA, OD, 4X, and SU)

With this knowledge in hand, I patrolled the 20m FT8 sub-band between 20Z and 22Z.

I worked ZC4GR in F8 on 2021-08-14 on 14076 at 2034Z; his confirmation via LoTW arrived 8 days later.

This technique is equally effective with any mode.

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WO7R

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Re: The Golden Days of DXing or the End of Days?
« Reply #101 on: February 10, 2023, 03:45:47 PM »

Quote
Oh wait...you don't have to hear them with FT8. And you don't need a DX cluster...it's right there on your WSJT-X screen. Ain't technology great

If you want to work whatever shows up, that will work fine.

But, what if the DX you want was spotted on 10m, you parked on FT8 at the "standard" 10m frequency, and waited for it to "print" and did nothing else?  Well, you'd lose a lot.

Those of who still watch the clusters figure out, often in less than 5 minutes when the op has moved to a different band.   We're gone and you're still on 10m, thinking you're seeing QSB. And, we're on the actual new band, too.
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AA6YQ

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Re: The Golden Days of DXing or the End of Days?
« Reply #102 on: February 10, 2023, 04:52:30 PM »

Quote
Oh wait...you don't have to hear them with FT8. And you don't need a DX cluster...it's right there on your WSJT-X screen. Ain't technology great

If you want to work whatever shows up, that will work fine.

Some ops consider that DXing; to each, his or her own. If you're attempting to confirm all 340 DXCC entities, however, this approach is - as Carl Sagan quipped - "Like reaching for the stars by climbing a tree. You'll make progress for awhile, but you'll never get there".

But, what if the DX you want was spotted on 10m, you parked on FT8 at the "standard" 10m frequency, and waited for it to "print" and did nothing else?  Well, you'd lose a lot.

Those of who still watch the clusters figure out, often in less than 5 minutes when the op has moved to a different band.   We're gone and you're still on 10m, thinking you're seeing QSB. And, we're on the actual new band, too.

Real-time information from the DX Cluster network is available to everyone more-or-less simultaneously. Unless you're quick, chasing a spot of a rare DX station will lead you into a slug-fest. Listening to find a DX station you need before it's spotted is much more likely to yield a QSO, but doing so efficiently means knowing where and when to listen based on the DX station's past behavior and based on on past propagation openings from your QTH to the DX station. In my experience, that's been the most productive way to utilize the DX Cluster network.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2023, 04:59:22 PM by AA6YQ »
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WO7R

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Re: The Golden Days of DXing or the End of Days?
« Reply #103 on: February 10, 2023, 05:42:53 PM »

Quote
Real-time information from the DX Cluster network is available to everyone more-or-less simultaneously. Unless you're quick, chasing a spot of a rare DX station will lead you into a slug-fest.

Yeah, but some of those slugfests; I daresay most of them, turn out not to be optional.

If we have some medium rare DX stations running on FT8, they often change frequencies without any indication.  They just disappear.  Of course, in the cases under discussion, they go to some other FT8 band segment.

Sure, if I can realize they've left the freq and figure out which one, I get an edge.  You're right about that.

But, if the scenario is FT8 (and it is in this example, as opposed to general DXing), I am likely to find out when the rest of the world does because we both know these things get spotted fast these days.  My window of any sort of exclusivity is shorter than ever these days, especially on FT8 with "reverse beacon networks", pskreporter and all the rest.  And that's if I do figure out the new band quickly.

But at least I am in the slugfest as opposed to sitting on the now-departed frequency, wondering what is going on.
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AA6YQ

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Re: The Golden Days of DXing or the End of Days?
« Reply #104 on: February 10, 2023, 07:01:42 PM »

Quote
Real-time information from the DX Cluster network is available to everyone more-or-less simultaneously. Unless you're quick, chasing a spot of a rare DX station will lead you into a slug-fest.

Yeah, but some of those slugfests; I daresay most of them, turn out not to be optional.

If we have some medium rare DX stations running on FT8, they often change frequencies without any indication.  They just disappear.  Of course, in the cases under discussion, they go to some other FT8 band segment.

Sure, if I can realize they've left the freq and figure out which one, I get an edge.  You're right about that.

But, if the scenario is FT8 (and it is in this example, as opposed to general DXing), I am likely to find out when the rest of the world does because we both know these things get spotted fast these days.  My window of any sort of exclusivity is shorter than ever these days, especially on FT8 with "reverse beacon networks", pskreporter and all the rest.  And that's if I do figure out the new band quickly.

But at least I am in the slugfest as opposed to sitting on the now-departed frequency, wondering what is going on.

Chasing a spot of a needed station and being in the resulting slugfest is certainly better than having no opportunity whatsoever, but slugfests can be frustrating, particularly with little experience or a modest station.

In my ZC4GR-on-FT8 pursuit, I found him before he was spotted - as I have with many other needed stations. With high-profile DXpeditions like 3Y0J that publish their operating frequencies beforehand, realtime spots are primarily useful in exposing propagation openings between your QTH and theirs - particularly openings that occur when much of the competition has less favorable propagation or is asleep.
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