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[WZ5V]

Hello everyone,

Any advice is greatly appreciated on this.  I’m about to start installation on my first HF radio and antenna.  I have very limited space as we live within the city.  Below is a link to an older satellite photo with some modifications.  There are a couple of interests that I enjoy, ham radio and hydroponic gardening.  The concrete paver section is for our hydroponic garden.

Antenna Placement Photo
https://ibb.co/YWsxVv2

My first HF radio is a Yaesu FTDX10.  I’m going to put up a vertical Hustler 5-BTV with LMR400 coax.  I’ve been told that this will work fine without ground radials in the Texas soil.  I’m not sure about that.  I have a few questions regarding the placement and possible radials.

On the attached photo, the blue dot is my intended placement for the antenna. 

Here are a few questions that come to mind:

-   Is the placement too close to the house or the aluminum patio cover?  What is the impact of this placement – I don’t have many options on where to put this.

-   Is there a better practical location?

-   As for radials, I wouldn’t be able to get 360 degree radials because of the house and patio.  Would it make sense to still try to use radials?

-   If I ran radials, could I run them under the concrete pavers?  The radials would be under a thin rubber liner for weed control with pavers on top.  Would that impact the radials?

I did consider a roof mount, but I don’t want radials on the roof – and I am concerned about high wind as the rating on this antenna is only 50 mph.  I have a chimney mounted Diamond X-300a, which works great.  On the ground for the Hustler, I am going to use a tilt base to lower it in inclement weather.

I appreciate all advice and suggestions for this.

Thank you!

[WA3SKN]

I would suggest mounting it dead center above the aluminum patio cover.  Out of the way and taking advantage of the cover as a ground plane.

-Mike.

[WZ5V]

Hello Mike,

Unfortunately, the patio cover isn't robust enough where I would trust it with the antenna.  I guess that would work similar to a magnet car antenna using the vehicle as a ground plane.  Interesting idea...

Robert

[WA3SKN]

Magnets don't stick to aluminum.  But there are other ways to mount an antenna above that cover.  Just how big is the cover area?

-Mike.

[N0GV]

Use a nice piece of aluminum wire (12 gauge or so) to add a radial to the roof. Elevate the antenna to the roof level using a tilt over and a few radials off the other side, should work just fine. A couple of polymer guys at a point about 1/2 way up  the antenna will increase its wind survivability.

Grover

[WZ5V]

Hey Mike,

The patio cover is 18' x 8'. 

Magnets don't stick to aluminum.  But there are other ways to mount an antenna above that cover.  Just how big is the cover area?

-Mike.

[WZ5V]

Hello Grover,

This is an interesting idea.  Would it matter if the radials were not 360 degrees, or is it any radial is a good radial thing?  I could probably get close to the corner of the house and mount the antenna at the roof line and use the back side of the roof for radials.  I wouldn't be able to cover all angles.  The radials would angle upward on the roof - any issue with that?

I did initially think about installing this with a chimney mount like the Diamond X300.  Wasn't sure how the radials would get around the chimney and didn't want the wires running down the front of the roof.

Thoughts?

Use a nice piece of aluminum wire (12 gauge or so) to add a radial to the roof. Elevate the antenna to the roof level using a tilt over and a few radials off the other side, should work just fine. A couple of polymer guys at a point about 1/2 way up  the antenna will increase its wind survivability.

Grover

[K0UA]

If you want my thoughts on your antenna project, here it is.

Always mount antennas as far from your house (and other peoples houses) as you can. This is to minimize RFI from and to the houses. Modern houses produce a LOT of RFI. This wasn't a problem years ago, but it is now. The switched mode power supply on our "things" has seen to that. 

The ground mounting with a tilt over is a very good idea.  Those antennas take a lot of "tuning" to get the SWR curves for each band just where you want them. That means dozens of trips out and back. The tilt over will be great for this as well as the high wind option.

Get what radials down that you can. They don't have to be straight, and they don't have to be tuned when layered on and spiked down into the grass with lawn staples.  They will disappear in less than a year. No digging required, the grass will overtake them and they will "melt" down. Under a rock or paver will be fine too. No tuning on ground mounted radials. (so random lengths will work ok. to fit).  Some radials, even lain down "crazy" is better than no radials. You need radials. I don't care what anyone says. You need radials. Do what you can, as many as you can until the law of diminishing returns is reached.
You will likely want a choke at the feedpoint and perhaps another at the house entrance to suppress common mode currents on the outside of the coax. You can build this yourself out of a 240 sized torroid of mix 31 material with about 13 turns of small diameter coax thru it. I used RG-58. fine for low power, it would be better if you use RG-400 Teflon (small diameter, high voltage) coax for over a kilowatt. You can get it in short lengths on Amazon.

Good luck with your project.

[W0CKI]

I have a similar situation to yours. I have a Hustler 4BTV with 30 meters added. It is installed in the ground close to the house. I have 42 radials installed in a semi circle pattern. I also have the DX Engineering radial plate and the tilt over plate.
It works great. With a little bit of effort using a Rig Expert antenna analyzer I have 2-1 or less SWR on all the band edges.
You'll do fine with 100 watts.
Give it a shot.
Gary, W0CKI

[KH6AQ]

The 5BTV will work with only a ground rod if the soil is a decent as you say it is. Your antenna is quite close to the pool cover. I had to move a 5BTV from a spot 2' from a house to 10' away because of coupling to the AC wiring in the house.

Your choice of the FTdx-10 is a good one!

[KC0W]

  Some radials, even lain down "crazy" is better than no radials. You need radials. I don't care what anyone says. You need radials. Do what you can, as many as you can until the law of diminishing returns is reached.

 Finally.................A post from someone who understands vertical HF antennas. It only took 7 replies from the original question. 

                                                                  Tom KH0/KC0W

[K6JH]

If you insist on that spot, run some radials up that side yard next to the concrete pavers, in addition to a ground rod. Another potential location is the back corner and run radials down the side yard and in back of the patio. If you can run some wires in the cracks between pavers that might be interesting - I’m assuming you’re not ambitious enough to pull up the patio pavers just to install more radial wires.

I would be tempted to try that aluminum patio cover. Even if I just ran a mast up on the corner and tied the ground into the aluminum. Kind of depends on how well bonded the different sections are. Or maybe run a fleet of radial wires down on top of the cover, if it’s not objectionable visually. Probably easier and better to just keep it ground mounted though.

[KI8DJ]

Radials do not need to be perfectly symmetrical if you can't get in a full circle it won't hurt antenna pattern much. House may attenuate signal some in that direction though

[K5LXP]

Any advice is greatly appreciated on this.

Careful what you ask for...

I’m going to put up a vertical Hustler 5-BTV with LMR400 coax.

Good start.

I’ve been told that this will work fine without ground radials in the Texas soil.

Whoever told you that is wrong.   Even if the antenna were planted in a proverbial salt marsh with excellent soil conductivity, it doesn't come close to metal.  For a vertical like this, something needs to provide return current to the feedpoint.  That happens with radials.  If you don't provide them then the shield of your coax becomes the primary return path and one conductor in a 360 degree field doesn't buy you much.  It will 'work' though, you'll hear stations and can make contacts that way.  But it will be better/easier with a decent radial field.

Is the placement too close to the house or the aluminum patio cover?

I think so.  My vote would be as far from the house as practical.

I wouldn’t be able to get 360 degree radials because of the house and patio.

The only rule with compromise radials is as many as you can, and as long as you can.  Sometimes you don't get perfect.  It will work.

could I run them under the concrete pavers?

Absolutely, if you're willing to go through all that work.  Even just tucking them in the cracks checks the box, they don't have to be perfectly straight.

I did consider a roof mount, but I don’t want radials on the roof

Run it on the ground for a while.  The roof can always be an option for another time.  I've run my verticals both ways and generally prefer a ground mount, but my butternut has been on my roof for about 20 years now and it has worked out OK.  But, there are radial wires everywhere.  I used gray wire and it's a gray shingle roof, so from the ground the only place they're visible is the more dense web of wire at the base.  But, I don't care if you can see my antennas from space, much less the yard or the street.

Don't let perfection be the enemy of good enough.  Get something up and start doing and learning.  This is a journey, not a destination.  Once this is up you can experiment with another antenna like a dipole or end fed, then maybe a test antenna on the roof to do A/B comparison.

Mark K5LXP
Albuquerque, NM

[WZ5V]

Hello Jim,

I do plan to pull up all of the concrete pavers.  Our weed barrier was a major failure last year and I"m actually putting in a rubber pond liner under the pavers.  I intend for the pavers to be butted up against each other.  However, that could change as I'm just now re-designing the new layout of the hyroponic buckets. 

So - here's a question...  would the radials work under the pavers?  I'm thinking the radials could go under the pavers but on top of the liner - unless it wouldn't matter to go under the liner. 

I might just consider leaving space between the paver rows and filling with decorative white rock.

I'm definitely open for suggestions.

Thanks!

If you insist on that spot, run some radials up that side yard next to the concrete pavers, in addition to a ground rod. Another potential location is the back corner and run radials down the side yard and in back of the patio. If you can run some wires in the cracks between pavers that might be interesting - I’m assuming you’re not ambitious enough to pull up the patio pavers just to install more radial wires.

I would be tempted to try that aluminum patio cover. Even if I just ran a mast up on the corner and tied the ground into the aluminum. Kind of depends on how well bonded the different sections are. Or maybe run a fleet of radial wires down on top of the cover, if it’s not objectionable visually. Probably easier and better to just keep it ground mounted though.