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[WZ5V]

Hello Mark,

Thank you for the response.  It's been so split with people in my area about radials or no radials.  I have a belt and suspenders personality, so I'm sure I'm going with radials. 

I don't have a perfect yard or a perfect setting.  The reason for the antenna placement in that spot is because of a large electric company owned box near the alley way.  You'll see the cut from the fence on the north side.  No doubt there will be interference from that thing.

I am pulling up all the pavers and putting a stronger weed barrier underneath.  Now would be a good time to create the design to allow for radials to either run between the pavers or under them.  I feel like running them under the pavers may inhibit their effectiveness.  I don't really know.

I've heard a number of people say that you should run as many radials as you can and the length doesn't matter that much.  That may be the route that I will go. 

So - if I run radials between my pavers and above the weed barrier liner, will I run into tuning problems with the radials versus the radials actually touching the ground below the liner and pavers?

I'm trying to get this mapped out in my head.  These pavers are heavy and it's a workout to move them again.

Thank you for your advice!

Is the placement too close to the house or the aluminum patio cover?

I think so.  My vote would be as far from the house as practical.

I wouldn’t be able to get 360 degree radials because of the house and patio.

The only rule with compromise radials is as many as you can, and as long as you can.  Sometimes you don't get perfect.  It will work.

could I run them under the concrete pavers?

Absolutely, if you're willing to go through all that work.  Even just tucking them in the cracks checks the box, they don't have to be perfectly straight.

I did consider a roof mount, but I don’t want radials on the roof

[VE3PP]

Hello Mark,

Thank you for the response.  It's been so split with people in my area about radials or no radials.  I have a belt and suspenders personality, so I'm sure I'm going with radials. 

I don't have a perfect yard or a perfect setting.  The reason for the antenna placement in that spot is because of a large electric company owned box near the alley way.  You'll see the cut from the fence on the north side.  No doubt there will be interference from that thing.

I am pulling up all the pavers and putting a stronger weed barrier underneath.  Now would be a good time to create the design to allow for radials to either run between the pavers or under them.  I feel like running them under the pavers may inhibit their effectiveness.  I don't really know.

I've heard a number of people say that you should run as many radials as you can and the length doesn't matter that much.  That may be the route that I will go. 

So - if I run radials between my pavers and above the weed barrier liner, will I run into tuning problems with the radials versus the radials actually touching the ground below the liner and pavers?

I'm trying to get this mapped out in my head.  These pavers are heavy and it's a workout to move them again.

Thank you for your advice!

Is the placement too close to the house or the aluminum patio cover?

I think so.  My vote would be as far from the house as practical.

I wouldn’t be able to get 360 degree radials because of the house and patio.

The only rule with compromise radials is as many as you can, and as long as you can.  Sometimes you don't get perfect.  It will work.

could I run them under the concrete pavers?

Absolutely, if you're willing to go through all that work.  Even just tucking them in the cracks checks the box, they don't have to be perfectly straight.

I did consider a roof mount, but I don’t want radials on the roof

Why bother with a weed barrier under the pavers? I have a paving stone patio. No weed barrier under it. If something grows up between the pavers I use Round Up to kill it!
Good luck lifting those paving stones up, as  you said they are not light!

[WZ5V]

The reason for the weed barrier is that our hydroponic garden will be on top of the pavers.  I don't think Round Up is all that safe around plants that produce vegetables for us to eat.  I seem to be pretty good at growing weeds and grass in areas that I don't want it to grow.  The last weed barrier worked very poorly. 

I think I will be designing channels between some rows of the pavers and putting in some decorative rock on top of the barrier.  I have to do this anyway since I also need to put in t-posts to weave the tomato and other larger plants.  I think we have about 130 pavers, which are 16" x 16".  We have moved them before and it is a workout.  I might be inclined to higher a little muscle for the moving this time. 

At this point, I plan to run some of the radials in these channels and cover them with the decorative rock.  I will also run radials in some of the grassy areas too.  I guess we'll see what happens.

Why bother with a weed barrier under the pavers? I have a paving stone patio. No weed barrier under it. If something grows up between the pavers I use Round Up to kill it!
Good luck lifting those paving stones up, as  you said they are not light!
[/quote]

[WB6BYU]

...I think I will be designing channels between some rows of the pavers and putting in some decorative rock on top of the barrier...

The radial wires don't need to be very large.

#22 magnet wire can be stuffed into a crack between
two pavers and have barely space for a couple grains
of sand.  But wider gaps will be OK, too.


Best thing we did with tomatoes was to make a hedge
with large mesh game fencing stretched between rows
of T-posts, with the two sides about 14" apart.  We put
the plants every 12" down the row.  As they got higher
we slipped dowels, sticks, or similar between the two
sides to support the branches.

Air flow through the hedge reduced problems with rot
and mildew.  We could reach the tomatoes through the
game fencing to pick them (except a few very large
ones that we had to cut into pieces).  Fencing kept the
deer from eating the plants (except an occasional nibble
on the branches that we hadn't tucked back into the
hedge yet).  And a single soaker hose down the center
would water the whole thing.  At one point we had
at least 4 hedges, each 50' long.

I'm sure with a bit of creativity you could build a frame
to support it that just sat on the pavers and didn't need
to sink into the ground...  but that is a bit off topic.

[K4RVN]

Robert,
I had the Husler 4BTV for about 15 years. I read the 5BTV manual before replying to your post. Looks very similar. I would suggest, for your perusal,  moving the antenna from your spot to the far corner of the patio cover. Install a ground stake to suit your antenna mount that will put the antenna a couple of feet or more above your patio cover. A water pipe or fence rail might work for you. Strap the ground stake mount at the patio cover to support it with metal straps and screws or whatever works for you. That will brace the antenna to the patio cover and stabilize it.
 If you have a Tractor Supply , buy the 10 buck 164 ft roll of 16 gage aluminum wire and install some radials on the patio cover. Use as many as you think will fit OK. The 8x18 patio cover will act as a grounding system of some kind. You won't know how good until you install it. The spot you chose is too close to the house and would most likely be noisy and too much RF interference. If you can install radials the other directions just one or two may help. You can bend them if necessary.
The mounting ground state will also provide a ground of some sort so my advice would be to try it.
You may get good results, one never knows as the soil conditions certainly come into play.
Good luck and enjoy the hobby.
Frank

[K5LXP]

What you're encountering with your advice about radials I would use as an indicator of who you can trust to know what they're talking about and who doesn't.  It's as simple as that, without radials the efficiency and pattern of a quarter wave vertical are impacted.

Just to reinforce my point - do something even if it may not be optimum.  If the spot you picked is the least worst, then run with it.  I wouldn't go nuts digging for a concrete base and running conduit, just pound a stake in the ground and clamp the antenna to that, and lay the coax and radials out on top of the ground at first.  Try it for a few days and see if there's any issues with noise, EMI, tuning or other negative effects.  If it seems OK, then you can work on making it more permanent.

Your radials will work fine under/alongside bricks.  When radials are very close or in contact with the earth they become untuned, so the advice of as many and as long comes into play.  Even if the vertical is in a corner of a yard or patio and the radial field only covers 90 degrees, it's better than no radials.  Don't let perfection be the enemy of good enough.

Mark K5LXP
Albuquerque, NM

[WZ5V]

Thanks Mark, very good advice here.  I could choose different spots and temporarily put the antenna up until I find the optimal location for the permanent home.

Just to reinforce my point - do something even if it may not be optimum.  If the spot you picked is the least worst, then run with it.  I wouldn't go nuts digging for a concrete base and running conduit, just pound a stake in the ground and clamp the antenna to that, and lay the coax and radials out on top of the ground at first.  Try it for a few days and see if there's any issues with noise, EMI, tuning or other negative effects.  If it seems OK, then you can work on making it more permanent.

[WZ5V]

Hello Frank,

I thought about elevating the 5BTV on the corner of the patio or house and running radials up the roof line and on top of the patio cover.  It's my understanding that this configuration requires resonated/tuned radials and is a more difficult install.  The ground install doesn't require tuned radials.  Much of the advice I see is run as many radials as you can and don't worry about the length or the placement above or below the pavers and liner.  I guess it wouldn't hurt to experiment - other than I don't want to move the pavers once they are down.

You also gave me a good excuse to drop into Tractor Supply.  Planning to go this weekend anyway to look for vegetable seeds.

Thanks!

Robert

I had the Husler 4BTV for about 15 years. I read the 5BTV manual before replying to your post. Looks very similar. I would suggest, for your perusal,  moving the antenna from your spot to the far corner of the patio cover. Install a ground stake to suit your antenna mount that will put the antenna a couple of feet or more above your patio cover. A water pipe or fence rail might work for you. Strap the ground stake mount at the patio cover to support it with metal straps and screws or whatever works for you. That will brace the antenna to the patio cover and stabilize it.

[K4RVN]

Robert,
What I suggested was in effect to use the 8x18 metal patio cover as a counterpoise grounding system. The untuned radials were to increase your contact from the vertical mount to extend over the entire 18 ft length. I would suggest that you read your manual and try to comply with the instructions if you chose not to try something in the forum. The counterpoise  simply extends the ground up toward the base of your antenna and is not elevated radials for a ground. The patio cover would be your ground. Do some reading on counterpoise systems if interested. Good luck with your installation and one never knows how well an antenna will perform at a particular location until you try it. I suspect 80 meters will be a bear to tune, but don't know that for sure. and no one else does either.
73, Frank

[WZ5V]

Hey Frank,

This would be an interesting idea.  Not sure if it matters, but the patio cover is attached to the house and the posts are attached to the concrete patio.  I'm planning to use the DX Engineering ground plate.  Would I put the ground plate at the base of the antenna that would be above the patio cover or would I continue to put the ground plate on the ground?  Seems like it would be above and I'd be using the patio cover to run the radials on.  I don't think I could do both with two ground plates because of the distance - just thinking out loud there. 

If you're good with it, I may want to send some pictures to you later this weekend.  Assuming I get out in the yard and start organizing the area.

Thanks!

Robert

Robert,
What I suggested was in effect to use the 8x18 metal patio cover as a counterpoise grounding system. The untuned radials were to increase your contact from the vertical mount to extend over the entire 18 ft length. I would suggest that you read your manual and try to comply with the instructions if you chose not to try something in the forum. The counterpoise  simply extends the ground up toward the base of your antenna and is not elevated radials for a ground. The patio cover would be your ground. Do some reading on counterpoise systems if interested. Good luck with your installation and one never knows how well an antenna will perform at a particular location until you try it. I suspect 80 meters will be a bear to tune, but don't know that for sure. and no one else does either.
73, Frank

[K4RVN]

Robert
Your antenna would be above the roof. You could strap a 2 ft. long water pipe size as the manual states to the patio post. Use several plumbing sewer line clamps like they use on RV drain hose . The antenna should be about 18 inches above the patio metal. Read the last paragraph of your reply # 11 from K6JH. I just read it and found my idea and his are down the same path. I am no longer into verticals so not an expert , or advocate by any means.  I notice K6JH had the same concern I did about the metal sheets making good contact with each other and suggested running wires on top. I would contact him as I have been into Quads and Yagis for years now. I just shared my opinion with you which has to be tried to see if it works. K6JH had the idea of trying the patio cover metal before I did and probably more recently qualified on vertical parameters. I talk to a radio friend in Texas fairly often using only a metal shed roof
for his vertical. He does great even DX. Good luck and keep us posted on the Forum.
73,

Frank

[K6JH]

I’m not that big an expert on verticals, I’m just recalling other advice and what I would try. But I would also sniff around with a temporary install and see how noisy the spot near the house, or the corner near the electrical box.

Just using a ground rod or pipe mount without radials is somewhat lossy, which does have the benefit of making the SWR better (at the expense of performance.) That’s why DX engineering has modified the Hustler instructions and suggests laying in a bunch of radials (and gives them the opportunity to up sell you with radial plates, common mode chokes, tilting mounts, etc.) A nice round radial field ensures performance, where ground rods are hit or miss depending on soil conditions.

But don’t be afraid to try simpler installs. It’ll still work - and you won’t notice a dB or two. I was suggesting the back corner spot so you can run radials in two directions rather than one. But if you’re pulling up the pavers it would be a shame not to lay some wire there. I’ve heard individuals talk about good performance on the metal roofs over outbuildings, which was why I was wondering about the patio cover as a ground plane.

But the most important thing is to get on the air. I have a bad tendency to overthink things, and have missed a lot of operating over the years.

[WZ5V]

Thank you for the responses.  I think I'm going to try running the radials on the patio cover to start.  I'll also use the tilt mount and ground plate.  I still like the idea of being able to bring it down during times of inclement weather - although I wouldn't be able to bring it down all the way.  Once I get it up, I'll come back and give an update.  I'm sure it will be a couple of weeks before I can make it all happen.

73 to all!

Robert
WZ5V