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Author Topic: 3 Yankee Ocean Japan and other observations from Dog X-Ray  (Read 638 times)

K5PS

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Re: 3 Yankee Ocean Japan and other observations from Dog X-Ray
« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2023, 08:58:05 AM »

Guess that explains why on FT8 I was seeing a few callers for 3YOJ.
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K0UA

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Re: 3 Yankee Ocean Japan and other observations from Dog X-Ray
« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2023, 10:35:14 AM »

I forget what band it was on, and which day, but I heard a CW operator on the "spotted" frequency handing out QSO's one after the other, and about every third Q he would sign 3y0J followed by either the word PIRATE or FAKE. Still he had many callers and continued to work them one after the other.
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73  James K0UA

WO7R

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Re: 3 Yankee Ocean Japan and other observations from Dog X-Ray
« Reply #17 on: February 16, 2023, 10:36:46 AM »

Quote
I maintain that CW is still the most effective mode for DX.

I maintain it matters less than any of us would like.

I've worked many expeditions pre-FT8 and post-FT8, that were SSB only.  Where the holiday style op just worked simplex or only "up 5" no matter what the op said over the air.

Strait-up, dreary power-fests where the ability to sneak in with tricks like delayed calls were minimal to nonexistent.  You just had to be louder.  My CW skills were useless.

Similarly, I know friends who still stick it out on 6m on CW with a small dash of SSB.   They don't do horribly.  But they do regularly work about 90 per cent of the grids I do in a given season and a bit less than that for DXCC counts.

There's a lot of DXCC and grids that simply never show up on CW on 6m these days.  On that band, FT8 has become an "arms race" and it's even hard to get more than one 3 KHz band segment going.  There's a couple grids near or in the Big Bend in Texas that have been activated a couple of times lately.  They are hard to reach and so hard to get (one is on a tiny patch of land on a cliff above the Rio Grande).

There has been, to my knowledge, no SSB and no CW on any of those activations, even though different players have been involved.

Me, I work the DX where the DX chooses to be.


To some extent, not clear how much as I am still new there, 160m is the same.  A lot of stations have compromised (short) verticals and that means limited bandwidth.  So, nearly everyone tunes their antenna to the 1840 segment whatever else they do.  Maybe they have some sort of switch that swaps various coils in and out or something.  Absent that, you're going to see a lot of clustering around 1840 these days.

I work CW on 160 when I can.  There are a few guys not on FT8.  But the sweet spot of my tuning includes 1840 to 1843.

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KJ4Z

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Re: 3 Yankee Ocean Japan and other observations from Dog X-Ray
« Reply #18 on: February 16, 2023, 10:44:58 AM »

Quote
I maintain that CW is still the most effective mode for DX.

I maintain it matters less than any of us would like.

I maintain that those same narrow watering holes that made FT8 so attractive at the beginning have become traps.  There's a crocodile in that water.  There are only so many tricks one can employ in a 3 kHz slice of spectrum.  In the end, if there are 40 stations with 1.5 kW and a beam, and 300 stations with 500 watts and a wire, you're just not likely to be heard.

It probably doesn't matter as much in day-to-day DXing when fewer stations are around, but it certainly mattered on something like 3Y0J.
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K1VSK

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Re: 3 Yankee Ocean Japan and other observations from Dog X-Ray
« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2023, 12:08:01 PM »

Quote
I maintain that CW is still the most effective mode for DX.

I maintain it matters less than any of us would like.

I maintain that …
With all the maintaining you guys are doing, you must be exhausted. Take a break!
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KJ4Z

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Re: 3 Yankee Ocean Japan and other observations from Dog X-Ray
« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2023, 12:12:51 PM »

With all the maintaining you guys are doing, you must be exhausted. Take a break!

Scheduled maintenance?

Speaking of taking a break, I'm feeling the first stirrings of Spring around here.  Looking forward to easing on out of DX for six months and enjoying some backpacking.  I'm always happy when DX season starts, and when it ends.
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WO7R

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Re: 3 Yankee Ocean Japan and other observations from Dog X-Ray
« Reply #21 on: February 16, 2023, 12:21:12 PM »

Quote
It probably doesn't matter as much in day-to-day DXing when fewer stations are around, but it certainly mattered on something like 3Y0J.

I think that's pretty good analysis, but I would add a few caveats.

1. F&H on a separate frequency ameliorates the problem you cite quite a bit (though not entirely).  Only the very biggest expeditions don't fit in a 3k window, providing it is their window.

2.  Day to day turns out to matter a lot.  Pre-FT8 data from Clublog shows that contesting (that is, weekends) dominated everything between expeditions.  By about 8 to 1.  So, if you wanted rare DX, you basically had to work the contests -- the other activity was much less if it happened at all.  FT8 now gives you a shot at the medium rare stuff during the week.  Particularly from resident DX.  That's actually new.  FT8, for some reason, is more of a day-to-day mode.  Don't know why, but the data shows it and has for years.

3Y0J was certainly a problem on FT8.  And yet, it was still about 1/3 of the QSOs even though it wasn't on every day.

I think the next expedition is going to have three or four eight dollar GPS dongles.  Being off 15 seconds (and how did _that_ happen given the ship presumably kept good time?) turned out to be a big deal.  So, even the next Bouvet-type place might have a better FT8 outcome.  Or not.
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VK3HJ

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Re: 3 Yankee Ocean Japan and other observations from Dog X-Ray
« Reply #22 on: February 16, 2023, 02:57:39 PM »

3Y0J had some operational problems with FT8 that made it a whole lot more difficult than it should have been. Their limited power suggests that they were not being heard well enough, but the number of callers suggest otherwise. Their timing problems resulted in chaos, as their MO contradicted their announcements. Perhaps this chaos encouraged more pirates than would have been "normal" into the fray?
I managed to work the "Real 3Y0J" once on FT8. I worked a "Fake 3Y0J" once in FT8. I won't know which was which until I see my Lotw confirmation.
I've seen FT8 working impressively well in regular DXpeditions. Maybe a "SuperDXpedition" variant with a higher capacity may be needed for the Top 10 activations?
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W2IRT

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Re: 3 Yankee Ocean Japan and other observations from Dog X-Ray
« Reply #23 on: February 16, 2023, 03:12:16 PM »

I've seen FT8 working impressively well in regular DXpeditions. Maybe a "SuperDXpedition" variant with a higher capacity may be needed for the Top 10 activations?

I'm curious if a new mode or perhaps a variant of multi-stream FT4 might provide better rate. The only downsides I can see for that is less efficient spectrum usage (signals are wider) and lower signal decode thresholds. Perhaps Joe has something in the works for fast decode multi-stream? 15 second periods are definitely the limiting factor here, even with four streams.
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K1VSK

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Re: 3 Yankee Ocean Japan and other observations from Dog X-Ray
« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2023, 06:01:57 PM »

Maybe a "SuperDXpedition" variant with a higher capacity may be needed for the Top 10 activations?
be careful what you wish for. If we made it easy, it wouldn’t be any fun and there would be no challenge. And no sense of accomplishment.
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AF5CC

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Re: 3 Yankee Ocean Japan and other observations from Dog X-Ray
« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2023, 09:19:52 PM »

I'm always happy when DX season starts, and when it ends.

It never ends!

73 John AF5CC
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