Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: Wire element spacing used on the COBRA HF wire antenna  (Read 299 times)

KF4FDS

  • Member
  • Posts: 8
Wire element spacing used on the COBRA HF wire antenna
« on: February 19, 2023, 01:06:38 PM »

I'm scratch building a COBRA inspired antenna and need to know how much the wires are spaced apart. I'm just adding 66 feet of wire to my 40 meter dipole and snaking the wire around like the Corba to make a linear loaded 80 meter dipole for a small backyard.

I have always used my 40m dipole as a sloper and it wont fit in my new backyard. I have seen a couple youtube videos that mentioned how the wire spacing plays a major role in bandwidth.

My antenna will have 3 bends to linear load/shorten the two elements from 66.857 feet down to 22.285 feet each side.

Bruce kf4fds
 
Logged

K0CWO

  • Member
  • Posts: 610
Re: Wire element spacing used on the COBRA HF wire antenna
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2023, 02:45:14 PM »

The k1jek Cobra Junior has an overall length of 73 feet, it is made of 3 conductor ribbon cable with the turns of wire right next to each other.  I used the Cobra Senior version years ago and also made one out of WD1 military communications wire using the 140 foot dimensions, again the wires right along side one another.  The 140 foot version worked well 80-10, usable on 160.  Don’t expect miracles on the band below the dimension for which it was cut.

73, k0cwo
Logged

W3NR

  • Posts: 46
    • HomeURL
Re: Wire element spacing used on the COBRA HF wire antenna
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2023, 02:53:43 PM »

This might give you some pointers::

https://www.hamradiosecrets.com/short-ham-antennas.html

Ed W3NR
Logged

WB6BYU

  • Member
  • Posts: 20896
    • Practical Antennas
Re: Wire element spacing used on the COBRA HF wire antenna
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2023, 02:55:05 PM »

I don't think that is going to work out the way you hope...

If you look at the original MOR-Gain antenna, the 80m element
with the 3-folded wires was about the same length as the 40m
element.  Wire spacing was a few inches.  The Cobra was
sometimes made from 3-conductor Romex house wiring
(hot, neutral, and ground), and was also about half the
length as a normal dipole for the lowest band.


So for 80m, I'd expect the antenna to be about the same length
as your current 40m dipole:  about 50% more wire than a standard
1/2 wavelength dipole if you have 3 parallel wires.

There is a lot of coupling between the wires, and at some points
there are opposite currents flowing in adjacent wires (which cancels
some of the radiation).  That affects the required wire length as well.

Note that most of these effects are reasonably independent of the
spacing between the folded wires, as long as it is a small fraction
of the total antenna length.  If close spacing gives wider bandwidth,
then it is due to higher losses in the antenna.

WB6BYU

  • Member
  • Posts: 20896
    • Practical Antennas
Re: Wire element spacing used on the COBRA HF wire antenna
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2023, 06:03:59 PM »

I did some modeling to make confirm my suspicions...

A 66' dipole with 3 wires (2 bends in each leg) showed
resonances at 3.5 and 7.6 MHz with 1" spacing.  The
SWR bandwidth at 2 : 1 SWR (relative to 12.5 ohms)
was about 30 kHz.  Changing the spacing to 1' lowered
the resonance to 3.3 and 7.4 MHz (due to the added
wire length in the ends) but the bandwidth was about
the same. 

(The original MOR-Gain had adjustable jumpers to
center the resonances on 40m and 80m.)

The 80m impedance was around 12.5 ohms at resonance
on both bands (typical of a half-length antenna).  The
40m impedance went from about 73 ohms at close spacing
to 90 ohms at wider spacing.

So expect the SWR to be somewhat high on 80m, like
4 : 1 or so (unless you use some other matching). 
Using #12 copper wire the additional loss over a
standard full-length dipole is around 1 dB or so - not
too bad, but a bit of a warning if you try to use thinner
wire (like ribbon cable).

So one lesson is that the resonance is not determined
only by the total wire length - how that wire is distributed
makes a big difference.



Now, the 3-wire version has only 2 bends in each side.
If you are looking at 3 bends, that would be a 4-wire
version.  For the same 66' length that resonated on
3.3 MHz with 1' spacing, with 4 wires it now resonates
about 2.66 MHz.  Shortening it to 24' on each side,
with 1' spacing, brings the resonant up to 3.58 MHz.

Switching to narrow spacing, the resonance moved up
to 4.35 MHz!  That's a warning that the resonant
frequency is very dependent on the spacing.  I finally
got it to resonate around 3.75 MHz using a length of
27' on each side.  The 2 : 1 SWR bandwidth is still
about 30 kHz in either case.

So that gives you some numbers to work with.  The
close-spaced 4-wire version used about 210' of wire
to resonate on 3.75 MHz.  Loss using #12 wire is
about 1.6 dB compared to a standard full-sized dipole -
that may be acceptable if that's what you need to do
to fit it in the available space.  And, like the 3-wire
version, the second SWR dip is at 7.5 MHz, so it
could provide a useful 2-band antenna.

If you aren't using something like multi-conductor wire
or ribbon cable, I'd probably suggest making the spacing
between wires a few inches at least, so the tuning
doesn't shift too much in the wind.  And the SWR bandwidth
will be very narrow - looks like a 10 : 1 SWR at +/- 60 kHz
from the center frequency.

KF4FDS

  • Member
  • Posts: 8
Re: Wire element spacing used on the COBRA HF wire antenna
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2023, 07:47:39 PM »

Wow, I really appreciate everyone replying.
I guess I would do better if I just put together a regular linear loaded 80 meter dipole as an inverted V to solve small backyard issues and possibility better SWR curve. The feed point, the 1 to 1 balun is about 40ft high in a tree.

I have read about the morgain antenna.

I was thinking of using a 3 conductor wire on my next antenna build, I was under the impression that the 3 wire conductor could be shorter because the 3 wires are shorted together to make the over all length, longer. So is this why the COBRA uses so much over all wire because it uses a 3 conductor wire and 3 turn linear loading?

BTW, how does the COBRA antenna's short the 3 wires together? 

Thanks in advance
Bruce
« Last Edit: February 19, 2023, 08:03:33 PM by KF4FDS »
Logged

WD8OTT

  • Member
  • Posts: 21
Re: Wire element spacing used on the COBRA HF wire antenna
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2023, 08:31:37 PM »

Well this is coincidental as all get out. Just a couple of hours ago I was reading up on mods for the MFJ cub qrp transceivers. The guy that developed the cub was also involved as a co-developer of the COBRA antenna. His call is K1BQT. I first read of the cobra many years ago in 73 magazine. They used romex house wiring cable. Anyway, I copied this link for you from K1BQT. Here you go, https://www.nonstopsystems.com/radio/pdf-ant/cobra-1.pdf  Good luck with your antenna.
Logged

WB6BYU

  • Member
  • Posts: 20896
    • Practical Antennas
Re: Wire element spacing used on the COBRA HF wire antenna
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2023, 10:24:02 PM »

Quote from: KF4FDS

I guess I would do better if I just put together a regular linear loaded 80 meter dipole as an inverted V to solve small backyard issues and possibility better SWR curve. The feed point, the 1 to 1 balun is about 40ft high in a tree.

I have read about the morgain antenna.

I was thinking of using a 3 conductor wire on my next antenna build, I was under the impression that the 3 wire conductor could be shorter because the 3 wires are shorted together to make the over all length, longer. So is this why the COBRA uses so much over all wire because it uses a 3 conductor wire and 3 turn linear loading?



Here is a drawing of a MOR-Gain antenna (if I can get the images to load):



Here is a Cobra dipole:




Basically, the original MOR-Gain had additional dipoles in
parallel for the higher bands, and used direct coax feed.

The Cobra version took the same approach, since it gives a
resonance on two bands in half the normal length on the
lowest band, and fed it with ladder line for multi-band use.

All the people I know who used the Cobra Sr. on 160m
(which, granted, is a small sample) switched to some
other option due to poor performance.  I can't say why
from my own experience, whether it was because
vertical polarization works better on 160m, or the low
impedance at the feedpoint led to higher losses
in the feedline (or possibly the tuner, depending on the
line length), or the use of ladder line with stranded
copper-clad steel conductors (which increases losses
on the lower bands).

Note that the original MOR-Gain dipole dates from the time
of tube rigs, which often could match a somewhat high SWR
(more so for higher impedances than lower ones).  So if the
coax feed was close to an odd multiple of 1/4 wavelength
on the lower band, the low impedance (~12 ohms) would be
transformed up a couple hundred ohms, which many rigs
could match.  (The old Johnson Ranger, for example, was
specified to match 40 - 600 ohms just by adjusting the
output stage, with no external tuner needed.)  So while
the antenna performance hasn't changes, the expectations
of what SWR is acceptable has.

Any time you bend a dipole antenna, it requires a longer
conductor for resonance.  Sometimes the difference is not
enough to worry about.  But for this particular configuration,
there is a lot of coupling between the parallel wires, and
that changes the required conductor length.  For an antenna
to cover 80m and 40m, for example, the current distribution
is very different, which is why the second resonance is on
just twice the base frequency rather than 3 times (the
traditional 40m / 15m combination) for a straight dipole.


Whether this is the best approach for your antenna depends
on a lot of factors.  It's convenient that it can cover both
40m and 80m with one antenna (even with coax feed),
although you probably will still need a tuner in the shack,
as the SWR bandwidth is very limited on 80m.  But you
probably will run into issues with bandwidth and low
feedpoint impedance with many other types of shortened
antennas as well.

K0CWO

  • Member
  • Posts: 610
Re: Wire element spacing used on the COBRA HF wire antenna
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2023, 05:51:05 AM »

Logged

KF4FDS

  • Member
  • Posts: 8
Re: Wire element spacing used on the COBRA HF wire antenna
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2023, 07:01:48 PM »

I came across this video about the MoreGain antenna that might be useful to someone. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsFP6rE6ygM

THANKS AGAIN for all your help.
Bruce
Logged

KF4FDS

  • Member
  • Posts: 8
Re: Wire element spacing used on the COBRA HF wire antenna
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2023, 05:01:29 PM »

I found some useful links I thought I'd share.

How to connect a 3 wire line in series like the GATOR ultra lite dipoles.
https://swling.com/blog/2020/12/how-to-build-a-simple-linear-loaded-dipole-for-low-noise-shortwave-radio-listening/

80 meters band Linear Loaded Dipole antenna.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OGivdVKFOY

Short Multiband Linear-Loaded Doublet Antenna With 80 Meter
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EosDMqBOhv0

Bruce
KF4FDS



 
Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up