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Author Topic: Remote DXpeditioning  (Read 1388 times)

WO7R

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Re: Remote DXpeditioning
« Reply #30 on: February 23, 2023, 07:08:04 AM »

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Don’t be asinine. You know that is not what I meant so why insert ludicrous hyperbole?

Because I'm trying to get you to wrap your head around reality.

You are imposing costs and requirements on someone else.  That someone else sees rules, difficulties, and problems you either can't see, won't see, or simply don't see.

It's not your game that you are critiquing.  The stay-at-homes like you and I are playing a different game than the DXpeditoners are.  Have you gone as far as a rent-a-shack in Aruba?  Even that toe-in-the-water, I promise you, would give you a perspective you now sorely lack.

You sit back on your haunches in the comfort of your own home and then whine about someone who pays good money to put on a show for you, someone who subsidizes you.

And then pretend, from your position of ignorance, that (whine) it has to be 1976 all over again.

Sure, have an opinion if you want to.  But recognize that you are, in potential, a flat-earther here.  And, you'll get the scorn that comes with that.

What, exactly, are we discussing?  We're discussing, apparently, what other people do and from a position of ignorance at that.  Karen.
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WO7R

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Re: Remote DXpeditioning
« Reply #31 on: February 23, 2023, 07:20:25 AM »

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instead take it up with whoever you refer to as “them”.

OK, Karen, I guess I have to spell it out for you.   The "them" here are the folks that actually invented this technology.

They have not been shy, elsewhere, about talking about this tech and why they invented it.

Before you whine, why not find out why they bothered to do this.

It's cool tech, but it is also added complexity for them.  It wasn't added to piss you off.

Go find out why they did it and then "have an opinion".  One that is at least informed by the inventors of the thing.
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K1VSK

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Re: Remote DXpeditioning
« Reply #32 on: February 23, 2023, 09:02:09 AM »



I expressed an idea with which you disagreed and as a result, you choose to  post crap like this:



OK, Karen, I guess I have to spell it out for you.   





 Small Minds Discuss People, Average Minds Discuss Events, Great Minds Discuss Ideas.

Debate is about discussing ideas. If you can’t tell the difference, you add nothing here

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K7JQ

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Re: Remote DXpeditioning
« Reply #33 on: February 23, 2023, 09:43:56 AM »

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Don’t be asinine. You know that is not what I meant so why insert ludicrous hyperbole?

Because I'm trying to get you to wrap your head around reality.

You are imposing costs and requirements on someone else.  That someone else sees rules, difficulties, and problems you either can't see, won't see, or simply don't see.

It's not your game that you are critiquing.  The stay-at-homes like you and I are playing a different game than the DXpeditoners are.  Have you gone as far as a rent-a-shack in Aruba?  Even that toe-in-the-water, I promise you, would give you a perspective you now sorely lack.

You sit back on your haunches in the comfort of your own home and then whine about someone who pays good money to put on a show for you, someone who subsidizes you.

And then pretend, from your position of ignorance, that (whine) it has to be 1976 all over again.

Sure, have an opinion if you want to.  But recognize that you are, in potential, a flat-earther here.  And, you'll get the scorn that comes with that.

What, exactly, are we discussing?  We're discussing, apparently, what other people do and from a position of ignorance at that.  Karen.

As usual, those that have a different opinion than you receive a caustic reply that they're "whiners", "can't wrap their head around reality", "ignorant", "Karen", or as you told someone else above "take your 'tradition' and stuff it" (because he prefers DXpeditioners to be on-site operators). It's always your way or the highway, and no one else's opinion matters. Can't you simply agree to disagree, and rebut without insults? You do this time and time again all over these forums.

On topic, IN MY OPINION, no one is, as you claim, "spending anyone else's money". Those that *freely choose* to go on an adventurous DXpedition  to some rock in the middle of a stormy sea do so on their own volition and their own dime. If other individuals or businesses wish to contribute funds, that's their business. No one's twisting their arm...it's only a hobby. As a human being, of course I'm concerned for their welfare and safe travels, but they're not risking life and limb for me. It's what they want to do in pursuit of their facet of the hobby. They're not "subsidizing/putting on a show" for me. I'm a "stay-at-home" ham...they're not, and their choice. It's fun and adventurous for them, or maybe they just want the fame...not my position to judge or care. If I hear them on the bands and want to jump into the pileup, I'll do so without feelings of guilt because I didn't contribute.

I know you're a dedicated DXer, in pursuit of Honor Roll, certificates, and plaques...a noble quest. And if the DXCC rules permit RIB remote DXpeditions, I don't have a problem with that. Well, as long as it's something like, for instance, from a boat anchored offshore of an (uninhabited) island with a remote installation (that the principals own and built, not a pay-for-play setup). It obviously would save money and improve/simplify logistics...but that's their concern, not mine. I enjoy DXing, but not a paper chaser...if I work a new entity, I know it, and that's good enough for me. If others want to boast about their accomplishments, great!

IMO, you need a good dose of humility, and not get so worked up as to mock and criticize others that don't share your same opinion. After all, it's only a hobby.... ;).








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K4HB

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Re: Remote DXpeditioning
« Reply #34 on: February 23, 2023, 09:45:59 AM »

5 days ago I worked 4U1UN on 20m CW. The station equipment was in the UN building in New York, the antenna on the roof there, but the operator Adrian KO8SCA was thousands of kilometres away on a sail boat somewhere in the Atlantic ocean on his way to South Africa. The QSO was just confirmed via LoTW, uploaded also from the boat.

And I saw one of the LAs on that boat on 12M FT8 yesterday calling CQ using a grid in Norway. All of this is a joke. But the ARRL, being based in the US, has things screwed up like the US itself.

<rant>How are things screwed up here? We're the world's sugar daddy, and people can come here without a passport or any other type of documentation, just walk on in. As being screwed up relates to ham radio, numbered areas mean nothing anymore. Want a US callsign? Just provide a US address. Some US hams let foreign hams use their address. There's an industrial park in Portland that has 25 foreign hams listed at it's address. Doubt some of them have ever set foot on US soil, or may never. Must be a status thing. Ops on Guam have told me a lot of 2x1 calls are taken by Japanese ops. If you'll look up KH2 A-Z you'll see that's true.</rant> Off topic, but just showing the correlation between a US based organization and the US itself.

I think these RIB's are a great idea especially if they get us activation's from rare places that otherwise would not happen,

It would be even better if they went one further and for a fee let someone like me operate one of them from my own QTH on a per hour basis, because due to health and financial concerns I am never going to go anywhere rare to work from,

WOW! So if someone sets up a Jack in The Box on Peter One, you can stay in Ireland and pay to operate from there and tell folks about your great DXpedtion. I'm not doubting this may come be, considering how things have been dumbed down when it comes to ham radio and DXing. But don't just stop there, have more ambition than that...

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WO7R

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Re: Remote DXpeditioning
« Reply #35 on: February 23, 2023, 10:12:15 AM »

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It's always your way or the highway, and no one else's opinion matters.

Go and read what its inventors say and why.  Then come back to the thread.

The reason I am unpleasant today is that I am tired of savage ignorance masquerading as respectable opinion.

I can and have been quite polite around here.

However, when someone starts their argument with an insulting meme (that is, a dumb cartoon) and then proceeds to write showing no knowledge of how and why this technology came to be, they deserve the scorn they have earned.

Sorry, 2+2=5 is going to be ridiculed on the internet from time to time.  Not all opinions have equal value.

The uninformed ones certainly do not.

I'll be glad to have a civil discussion with someone who shows some evidence of why this was done and then still doesn't like it.

But Jack-in-the-box level discourse isn't going to cut it.  What goes around, comes around.

The RiB guys are solving difficult problems for us.  The least we can do is show we understand what they did and why before we criticize.  Anything else is whining and deserves to be called out.

Big time expeditions are already hard (as we have seen very recently).  Extra technology is not packed along lightly.  Maybe some of the cartoon makers need to plug into a little reality before their knees just jerk and they whine about it.

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KC0W

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Re: Remote DXpeditioning
« Reply #36 on: February 23, 2023, 10:20:55 AM »

Ops on Guam have told me a lot of 2x1 calls are taken by Japanese ops. If you'll look up KH2 A-Z you'll see that's true.

 Many 2x1 KH0 callsigns have been issued to visiting Japanese operators thru the vanity program as well. I'm not sure why this is an issue. Japanese amateurs are 10 times the op compared to US amateurs and 50 times the op compared to the Italians.

                                                                     Tom KH0/KC0W       
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KJ4Z

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Re: Remote DXpeditioning
« Reply #37 on: February 23, 2023, 10:30:25 AM »

I'll be glad to have a civil discussion with someone who shows some evidence of why this was done and then still doesn't like it.

I did this in my own small way with VK0LD, so I am not speaking from ignorance -- I've been there, to a degree.  I respect the immense amount of effort the RIB guys have put in, and I understand why they did it.  I am, nevertheless, apprehensive about these ongoing developments.  Here's why.

DXCC is a strange game, and its players are stranger still.  It seems to have some "special sauce," a magic ingredient that hooks people into what seems to me a sucker's game and keeps them there for extended periods of time.  When you start messing with a formula like that, you run the risk of breaking the spell.  I have spoken before about how, for me, the romance of DXing was always a big part of the allure, and the mega DXpedition is, to me, the apotheosis of that sense of romantic adventure.  The human drama of something like 3Y0J may be an objectively bad thing, and yet still play a crucial part in the mix of what makes DXing special.  My apprehension comes from the fear that, once we atomize the DXpedition and start removing parts, we may find that we are left with less than the sum of the parts.

To my mind, the real question is, which kind of DXer predominates: the one who is principally interested in filling out their check sheet and is not too fussed about how that comes about, or the one who is interested more in the whole experience rather than getting all the greenies.  If the former predominates I think everything is going to be just fine.  If the latter, we may have more trouble.  It's also worth asking what matters most to most DXpeditioners: the whole experience, or just running the pileups?  I really have no insight into this question.

I wish the RIB guys all the best.  Pushing the envelope is a mandate in our hobby, I understand why they are doing it, and I think I understand their perspective.  I hope it all works out and in a few years, we all wonder why we cared.  As the French say (roughly), he who does not die first will find out.
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WO7R

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Re: Remote DXpeditioning
« Reply #38 on: February 23, 2023, 10:44:57 AM »

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I wish the RIB guys all the best.  Pushing the envelope is a mandate in our hobby, I understand why they are doing it, and I think I understand their perspective.  I hope it all works out and in a few years, we all wonder why we cared.  As the French say (roughly), he who does not die first will find out.

Now, that's a respectable argument.

I don't know how to deal with that one.

The problem is, they are doing it because they have learned, particularly, that the number of rules and restrictions for the many environmental playgrounds we go to is ratcheting up, endlessly up.  Ironically, the USF&W in "the land of the free" is maybe the worst.  But, it has company AFAICT.

I don't know what it means for the romance and appeal of DXing, because the choice may be between "this thing" that lacks that romance and never seeing the place activated.  In some cases, in other words, a checkmark is all that is available.

I have heard (and perhaps you have heard) the number of hoops they had to jump through to get Baker done.  Including paying for an environmental officer to supervise them.  Or, how other groups have had to promise (on everyone's behalf) not to even try and activate a given place for another 20 years.

From our perspective (indeed, just about any perspective) it is all arbitrary and capricious.

The Baker team actually had to have, um, discussions about how a protected bird was unlikely to die flying into a vertical.  That's how bad it has gotten.

It's looking increasingly like these pooh bahs need to be shown we have not just bent over backwards, but kissed their signet rings and complimented their kids' soccer prowess.

All we can be sure about is that the days of the Colvins just sailing up to some island and operating are long, long gone.  Whatever this thing of ours becomes, it's going to have to adjust to change -- change imposed from the outside.

If we really loathe RiB that much, even after understanding the lay of the land, the answer may be to invent some kind of new category for the "environmentally impossible" because (in that reality) we refuse to do the things needful to get the permissions.  (Some may watch the DXpeditioners beat their head against the wall and pretend these guys will give way.  Maybe. The Baker guys who actually talk to them. . .invented RiB).

All I know is that something has to give.  Either our sacred list has to give way or RiB has to be allowed.

The thing to really worry about is the day that we are 100 per cent prohibited from one of these "forever".  That, too, may come.  Maybe RiB is just a way station along the way to that horrible future.  But, if it keeps DXpeditioning to environmentally sensitive places going another 5, 10, 20 years than I, at least, am willing to pay that price.
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KD8MJR

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Re: Remote DXpeditioning
« Reply #39 on: February 23, 2023, 11:13:20 AM »


You sit back on your haunches in the comfort of your own home and then whine about someone who pays good money to put on a show for you, someone who subsidizes you.

On topic, IN MY OPINION, no one is, as you claim, "spending anyone else's money". Those that *freely choose* to go on an adventurous DXpedition  to some rock in the middle of a stormy sea do so on their own volition and their own dime. If other individuals or businesses wish to contribute funds, that's their business. No one's twisting their arm...it's only a hobby. As a human being, of course I'm concerned for their welfare and safe travels, but they're not risking life and limb for me. It's what they want to do in pursuit of their facet of the hobby. They're not "subsidizing/putting on a show" for me. I'm a "stay-at-home" ham...they're not, and their choice. It's fun and adventurous for them, or maybe they just want the fame...not my position to judge or care.

This is probably the Post of the year for me as I am so tired of idiots saying that we should say nothing and just be happy that someone is willing to activate a dangerous place.

I have a very good Ham buddy who spent big bucks activating Navassa back in the 1980s and his call sign is still very visible on the light house.   Every time I have talked with him he goes on endlessly about his trip and what happened and what it was like working the JA's and the Eu etc etc etc.  The story starts up again everytime we meet and I can tell right away it was the one big highlight of his life.

This guy paid his money and sat on an island with minimal comfort for 2 weeks so that he could have an adventure.  He does not look at it as doing the Ham community a service or favor.  It was his dream come true!

I have met two individuals who have gone to Mount Everest.  Both of them somehow manage to bring it up in every conversation and then dominate the conversation with it.   They paid around $50,000 to go and believe me if you wanted to pay half their bill in exchange for them carrying a backpack rig they would go again in a heartbeat.

People who make these trips like adventure, they like to have memories and the bragging rights.  For most of them having a community that will pay more than half the bill is a huge bonus.  Go Raise $750,000 and see how fast Dom will schedule another Trip to Bouvet.  He loves that ****.

I love Scuba Diving.  Anyone want to pay to see me swim with the sharks in Australia?  I am more than willing to do it if you will front the money.
I will even dive down past the safe limits and venture down to 150ft if you want some pictures of a particular ship wreck.

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VE3VEE

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Re: Remote DXpeditioning
« Reply #40 on: February 23, 2023, 11:21:42 AM »


If we really loathe RiB that much


I see no issue with the RiB concept. I've been actually operating such a RiB for almost 10 years now. All my equipment is inside a small metal box attached to the base of my antenna mast in the middle of a farm 3 hours drive from my family home. I enjoyed building it and I enjoy operating it. The set up is technically more complicated than to simply have a station at home, but it has been a fun, a challenge, a learning experience building and maintaining it.

Marvin VE3VEE
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K4HB

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Re: Remote DXpeditioning
« Reply #41 on: February 23, 2023, 11:35:33 AM »

Many 2x1 KH0 callsigns have been issued to visiting Japanese operators thru the vanity program as well. I'm not sure why this is an issue. Japanese amateurs are 10 times the op compared to US amateurs and 50 times the op compared to the Italians. 

I agree, as a whole, JAs are the best ops on the planet. But I don't believe that should entitle them to the best calls in Guam and the Mariana Islands. The way I see it, it should be Guamanian residents first and Mariana Islands residents first.
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WO7R

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Re: Remote DXpeditioning
« Reply #42 on: February 23, 2023, 11:52:15 AM »

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I have a very good Ham buddy who spent big bucks activating Navassa back in the 1980s and his call sign is still very visible on the light house. 

Good for your friend.

But, as you go on to say, there are endless adventures available, some hard, some easy, and none of which requires a radio.  When someone activates Everest for SOTA, I wanna hear about it.  Nobody will ever activate Everest for DXCC.

There are plenty of islands,  mostly unnamed as far as I can tell, in the same waters as Bovet or Peter I that nobody activates.  You can find them easily on Google Earth.

If it was all about the thrill of the chase, why aren't people raising 750K to activate those?  Or ones with easy landings that cost far less that are still very strenuous?

The answer is obvious:  The apex of the thrill for most of these guys is doing it for us.  Sure, they get to bask in the glory of it, but we set the list of radio adventures.  They just figure out how to do it.

I also listen to what Martti Lane has to say about what he calls "the show".  He seems to view himself in the entertainment business, at least to a degree, and he certainly talks about "the audience".

The Microlite crowd was closer to your friend's idea.  The goal was to get there, put up a minimalist station, and work the hardy few who were smart enough and whose stations were good enough to get them.  They didn't even advertise ahead of time.  They didn't really cater to an "audience".

Which expeditions do we see in 2023?  The Microlites died out ages ago.  What we see are the ones modelled after Martti Lane's concepts, at least for big time, rare enough DXCCs.

How many expeditions talk endlessly about handing out ATNOs as an objective?  Band plans.  Plans to work which ever of NA, EU, and JA are farthest from them?

I've also had the pleasure of talking to these guys now and then at Visalia, one on one.  And, hearing their presentations.

Sure, they'll tell all the wonderful stories your friend did.  But it is also clear that they went because there was demand.  From us.  That is to say we set the terms of the adventure suite.  They do not do things to ramp up the difficulty or activate places we don't care for.  It's hard enough already. They are , in fact, looking for things that make their expensive and difficult job easier.  Remember, F&H for FT8 did not exist except for the fact that big time DXpeditioners figured out how to do it, lobbied for it, and got it written..  Joe Taylor and his team had no clue about anything like that.  They are mostly VHFers with limited interest in HF DXing.  Fortunately for us all, they signed on.  But it wasn't their idea.  It was done to make the already hard job of big time DXpeditioning easier.

If it was just "glory" alone, they'd all be packing it in for places like Baker and Deschero.  Most always did, but all of them would if you were right.  There's a lot of non-glory pain associated with activating them now.  Plenty of tough places in the world that lack the hassle.  IOTA beckons.  See what the Russian Robinson group does on nearly no budget.  It's damn impressive.  But they are much closer to your friends' ideas than the DXpeditioners I read or have met.  And, a lot of IOTAs have no serious restrictions.  Just difficulties getting there.  And even they go with an objective that was set by their audience.

Try and pretend it has nothing to do with us, and then look at the evidence.  It's a big world.  Someone else out there is like your friend.  But, most of them seem not to be that way.  They will tell just as many stories about the ugly horror show of what it takes to activate a place as they do about the thrill of being there.  Because, at the highest levels, that's what the game is.  The actual trip is often the easy bit.

Their adventures are intimately tied up  with the DXCC program and its rules.  There's no serious argument around it.

« Last Edit: February 23, 2023, 11:54:56 AM by WO7R »
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AF5CC

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Re: Remote DXpeditioning
« Reply #43 on: February 23, 2023, 12:36:55 PM »

Sorry, 2+2=5 is going to be ridiculed on the internet from time to time.  Not all opinions have equal value.

Yes they do.  Welcome to Post-modernism  :(

73 John AF5CC
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K7JQ

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Re: Remote DXpeditioning
« Reply #44 on: February 23, 2023, 12:49:16 PM »

Quote
It's always your way or the highway, and no one else's opinion matters.

Go and read what its inventors say and why.  Then come back to the thread.

The reason I am unpleasant today is that I am tired of savage ignorance masquerading as respectable opinion.

I can and have been quite polite around here.

However, when someone starts their argument with an insulting meme (that is, a dumb cartoon) and then proceeds to write showing no knowledge of how and why this technology came to be, they deserve the scorn they have earned.

I'll be glad to have a civil discussion with someone who shows some evidence of why this was done and then still doesn't like it.


I read up on RIB DXpeditions before I posted before, and I'm back. There's nothing really  unique about Radio in a Box, except the innovative way each one is constructed, and the way they're used remotely. Folks use them all the time at the helm in various configurations operating POTA, SOTA, etc. I think it can have merit for difficult access DX situations, provided the participants make the trip and stay within sight of the entity for the duration. Others think there should be boots on the ground for validation. Whatever the rules state is what counts.

But you still don't get the purpose of my above post. I re-read the posts from the "cartoon meme guy". Nowhere in his comments does he mention or come after you. He's giving his opinion and including a joking cartoon...in his mind a respectable one with a funny attachment. But in your mind you deemed it "savage ignorance", and told him to "take his 'tradition' and stuff it". There's no reason for you to be "unpleasant". His argument wasn't insulting you, yet you insulted him, much like you do to others that don't agree with you.

You seem to be an intelligent guy, and much of what you post on the forums I agree with. When I once posted that I didn't think using a pay-for-play remote superstation should count for award/certificate credits or contest ranking, you came back at me for having a "weak imagination". I fully realize where RHR has its place, just not in that circumstance. There's no cause for statements like that. Respect my opinion, and come back with yours...that's all. No vitriol or disrespect needed.
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