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Author Topic: Remote DXpeditioning  (Read 1386 times)

AF5CC

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Re: Remote DXpeditioning
« Reply #45 on: February 23, 2023, 01:20:40 PM »

Whatever the rules state is what counts.

Stop confusing this issue with logic.

73 John AF5CC
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WO7R

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Re: Remote DXpeditioning
« Reply #46 on: February 23, 2023, 01:37:02 PM »

Quote
Nowhere in his comments does he mention or come after you.

Never said he did.  What he did do was bite the hand that is "feeding" him rare DX -- with, most likely, not an earthly clue that he was doing such a thing.  And, he invited piling on.

I've been here a long time.  All too many here don't understand DXpedition economics.  There are plenty here  who write as if they can sit back, wait for the DXpeditions to happen from some eager, infinitely large population, and, if they deign to do so, our hardy DXer will reward them with three bucks (not a penny more) for the card.  They then feel they have done all they should do for a healthy DX program.

This is, of course, nonsense that can be dispelled by reading up on the few sources we have describing how these things are funded.  That three bucks is certainly welcome, but no sensible DXpeditioner counts on it when setting sail.  If they do, they had better be prepared to pony up if it falls short.  Like, say, getting fewer QSOs than planned.

They certainly have to pay for just about everything (the boat, particularly) without a dime of OQRS and other types of QSL money.  All QSL money is is a loss reducer.  DXpeditions are deadweight financial losses to those that go.  So, they do subsidize us.  Typically, no matter what sort of expedition it is, they pay 30 per cent or more of the costs out of their own pocket.  And it is they that have to dig deeper to cover shortfalls.

You, I assume, know this.  Me, I get tired of seeing it stated or implied that three bucks, after the fact, is all anyone needs to do.  Or that it doesn't matter what the rules are.  I don't contribute to every expedition myself.  But I do know that if I don't contribute to at least some, ideally many, far fewer expeditions will happen.  And, I also know that the rules affect whether I get more or fewer expeditions for the same amount of money.  Between the foundations, us, and DXpeditioners themselves, the money is nothing like infinite; all the while expedition complexity and costs have been rising of late.  300K use to be a lot.  Now 750K to 1M is becoming the norm.  Nothing has changed except the hostility of the external environment.

When I see cartoon memes in any forum, it is amazing how often they are attached to weak arguments and how often they are disconnected from reality.

The reaction I got proved my suspicions.

It is fortunate most big time expeditioners are too busy to read eHam.  Many, I think, would give it up if they really thought meme-posts like that were representative of the audience.

Seriously, this is human relations 101.  If someone is giving you a subsidy, you don't trash them.

Yet, it happens all the time in here.  Today, I got tired of playing nice about it.

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He's giving his opinion and including a joking cartoon...in his mind a respectable one with a funny attachment.

Yeah, and our world is too full of posts like that, made by ignorant people who are proud of their ignorance and expect the rest of us to pass on without comment or even treat it as factual.

Well, sometimes we do, and sometimes we don't.

There has been pushback, pushback that I have seen before.  Pushback pretending that we, the stay-at-homes, have nothing to do with how DXpeditioning is conducted.  This, too, is nonsense.  The terms of wherever they go and how they deploy their gear are set by the non-DXpeditioner because we effectively control the DXCC rules makers, albeit indirectly.  But, we still do.  We set the rules of the game and if we make it harder, we have indeed picked someone else's pockets (and reduced the number of expeditions we get in the bargain).

That is DXpedition Economics 101.

People can have the opinions they like.  What they can't have when I see them is their own imaginary facts, particularly when the facts are available.

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W2IRT

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Re: Remote DXpeditioning
« Reply #47 on: February 23, 2023, 03:43:52 PM »

Well said. Just wait until some enterprising DXpeditioner manages to put on a one-man (or woman) show to some entity in the top 25, then says that if you want it confirmed it's $25 for a physical card or $10 for an LoTW upload. No bureau, no free LoTW upload for 10 years. Donations above and beyond that get a souvenir with their cards/etc. Watch the collective Deserving throw a simultaneous conniption fit.
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W1VT

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Re: Remote DXpeditioning
« Reply #48 on: February 23, 2023, 03:48:47 PM »

Well said. Just wait until some enterprising DXpeditioner manages to put on a one-man (or woman) show to some entity in the top 25, then says that if you want it confirmed it's $25 for a physical card or $10 for an LoTW upload. No bureau, no free LoTW upload for 10 years. Donations above and beyond that get a souvenir with their cards/etc. Watch the collective Deserving throw a simultaneous conniption fit.

In my opinion the DXCC rules are already quite clear about QSLing issues as well RiB issues.
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K1VSK

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Re: Remote DXpeditioning
« Reply #49 on: February 23, 2023, 04:11:56 PM »

Well said. Just wait until some enterprising DXpeditioner manages to put on a one-man (or woman) show to some entity in the top 25, then says that if you want it confirmed it's $25 for a physical card or $10 for an LoTW upload. No bureau, no free LoTW upload for 10 years. Donations above and beyond that get a souvenir with their cards/etc. Watch the collective Deserving throw a simultaneous conniption fit.

In my opinion the DXCC rules are already quite clear about QSLing issues as well RiB issues.
If you or anyone bothers to review how we got to this level of discourse, I believe it stated simply by my contrasting how I view working someone actually on an island vs. someone operating from down the street but through a remote radio.


It had absolutely nothing to do with what’s allowed by the DXCC rules. Only a matter of preference to situational circumstance.


Then the usual suspect had a tantrum transparently attempting to disguise his tantrum with multiple paragraphs of rhetoric at which point the discussion went off the rails. Why someone does that is astonishing.

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US5WE

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Re: Remote DXpeditioning
« Reply #50 on: February 24, 2023, 12:50:36 AM »


If you or anyone bothers to review how we got to this level of discourse, I believe it stated simply by my contrasting how I view working someone actually on an island vs. someone operating from down the street but through a remote radio.

When, for instance, calling HH2AA during the short opening on 6 meters, the guy in Central Europe does not care that someone is keying the radio in Port-au-Prince remotely from the States. If someone, like you, doesn't like this way of DXing, there's an option NOT to call HH2AA and wait for somebody to go there. The same is with RIB - if you don't like it, don't call.
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K1VSK

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Re: Remote DXpeditioning
« Reply #51 on: February 24, 2023, 07:22:41 AM »


If you or anyone bothers to review how we got to this level of discourse, I believe it stated simply by my contrasting how I view working someone actually on an island vs. someone operating from down the street but through a remote radio.

When, for instance, calling HH2AA during the short opening on 6 meters, the guy in Central Europe does not care that someone is keying the radio in Port-au-Prince remotely from the States. If someone, like you, doesn't like this way of DXing, there's an option NOT to call HH2AA and wait for somebody to go there. The same is with RIB - if you don't like it, don't call.

I already knew that. All I said was that I care.

Why some people have a tantrum because I expressed an opinion with which they disagree says more about them than the opinion I expressed.
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K4HB

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Re: Remote DXpeditioning
« Reply #52 on: February 24, 2023, 07:48:21 AM »

When, for instance, calling HH2AA during the short opening on 6 meters, the guy in Central Europe does not care that someone is keying the radio in Port-au-Prince remotely from the States. If someone, like you, doesn't like this way of DXing, there's an option NOT to call HH2AA and wait for somebody to go there. The same is with RIB - if you don't like it, don't call.

Some do care, both in the US and Central Europe. Traditionalists like myself and others prefer to work someone who is actually there. It's sad to see where this remote operation and Jack in the box concept is going. We see it as becoming the norm, as more and more hop on board, much the same way FT8 has become the norm. I would rather FT8 be just another digital mode, but now it's the easy way to rack up points. And again, I would rather work ops who are actually there, but it appears this will become a thing of the past except for resident operators and a few guests.

Some remote operations are authorized under ARRL standards, and some are not. ARRL tends to lean toward whatever brings in the $$$$$$$. For an example of what is not authorized, there have been stations that worked other stations 7 thousand or more miles away on 160M in the middle of the day.

Haiti is not rare, you're an accomplished DXer, so you haven't depended on remote in the past. If you're satisfied with it, then fine. But some of us have different opinions.
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W2IRT

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Re: Remote DXpeditioning
« Reply #53 on: February 24, 2023, 10:08:34 AM »

I'm 100% in favor of anything and everything that "advances the radio art." Full stop. If you (the generic you) don't like X, don't work X; it's just that simple. Just don't whizz all over anybody else who does like modern operating practices.

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Great times are at hand, and soon there will be DX for all—although more for some than for others.

K1VSK

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Re: Remote DXpeditioning
« Reply #54 on: February 24, 2023, 10:23:11 AM »

Just don't whizz all over anybody else who does like modern operating practices.


Can you point out precisely where anyone did that?

Nothing like taking an opinion with which you disagree, twist it into some absurd and totally unrelated concept, suggest someone tried to apply that imaginary idea to everyone and then rag on an imaginary person you contrived who supposedly suggested it.

If anything, this discussion implies that RF kills brain cells.
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W2IRT

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Re: Remote DXpeditioning
« Reply #55 on: February 24, 2023, 10:32:50 AM »

Just don't whizz all over anybody else who does like modern operating practices.
Can you point out precisely where anyone did that?
Are you kidding me? That's all the old Bouvet thread, the Crozet thread and now this thread have become. Purists, traditionalists, etc, loudly and constantly denigrating everything except CW, Phone and RTTY and doing things the way they used to be done.
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Night gathers and now my watch begins. It shall not end until I reach Top of the Honor Roll

Great times are at hand, and soon there will be DX for all—although more for some than for others.

K1VSK

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Re: Remote DXpeditioning
« Reply #56 on: February 24, 2023, 11:06:35 AM »

Just don't whizz all over anybody else who does like modern operating practices.
Can you point out precisely where anyone did that?
Are you kidding me? That's all the old Bouvet thread, the Crozet thread and now this thread have become. Purists, traditionalists, etc, loudly and constantly denigrating everything except CW, Phone and RTTY and doing things the way they used to be done.

I don’t doubt you inferred all that.
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US5WE

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Re: Remote DXpeditioning
« Reply #57 on: February 24, 2023, 11:12:14 AM »

Haiti is not rare, you're an accomplished DXer, so you haven't depended on remote in the past. If you're satisfied with it, then fine. But some of us have different opinions.
You're right, I got my HR#1 plaques in mid 90-s when there were no remotes and "accursed" FT8, just dial-up Internet and unreliable DX cluster VHF link to Hungary.
This hobby has changed ever since and most of us followed the trends both technologically and operationally. 
Those who didn't simply stopped in their development and self-improvement.
And those who all the time looked back were turned into a pillars of salt.

Haiti's HH2AA was just an example. it IS very rare here in KN29 and a lot of folks around are waiting for it's remote activation.

Lastly,  as a Field Checker I always check QSO times of applicant's Top Band QSOs.
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K7JQ

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Re: Remote DXpeditioning
« Reply #58 on: February 24, 2023, 11:28:17 AM »

Just don't whizz all over anybody else who does like modern operating practices.
Can you point out precisely where anyone did that?
Are you kidding me? That's all the old Bouvet thread, the Crozet thread and now this thread have become. Purists, traditionalists, etc, loudly and constantly denigrating everything except CW, Phone and RTTY and doing things the way they used to be done.

I don't see anyone whizzing over anyone else...just folks expressing opinions. When someone gives an *opinion* that point-and-click FT8 has skills like CW, aren't the "purists" allowed to (respectfully) refute that with their own opinion? Isn't anyone allowed to express an opinion that DXpeditions should have "boots on the ground", not operated remotely? Maybe the traditionalists think that technology is making awards too easy to achieve, and like the way it was. Is that wrong? But ultimately the rule changes win out anyway. You're always gonna have blow-back when rules change.

If anyone's doing the whizzing, it's those that hurl insults at others who disagree with them ::).
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KJ4Z

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Re: Remote DXpeditioning
« Reply #59 on: February 24, 2023, 11:41:54 AM »

This hobby has changed ever since and most of us followed the trends both technologically and operationally. 
Those who didn't simply stopped in their development and self-improvement.
And those who all the time looked back were turned into a pillars of salt.

Speaking as someone who has frequently fallen into the trap of assuming that new technology necessarily equals positive progress (and that conversely, old technology is worthy of contempt), I think we make a mistake when we link our own technological choices to personal virtue.  I have often been guilty of this and am trying to check myself.  There are many axes of improvement, not all of them technological.  Maybe the "old timers" have been improving their abilities in ways that seem irrelevant to us but very important to them.
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