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Author Topic: Remote DXpeditioning  (Read 1385 times)

K7JQ

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Re: Remote DXpeditioning
« Reply #60 on: February 24, 2023, 02:00:09 PM »

This hobby has changed ever since and most of us followed the trends both technologically and operationally. 
Those who didn't simply stopped in their development and self-improvement.
And those who all the time looked back were turned into a pillars of salt.

There are many axes of improvement, not all of them technological.  Maybe the "old timers" have been improving their abilities in ways that seem irrelevant to us but very important to them.

Thank you! Finally, a very astute observation. Sometimes, technological/operational advances can be a double-edged sword. They can provide a great *convenience and time saver* and simultaneously cause an *erosion of skills*. Both provided by computer integration into the hobby.

For example, today's contest computer logging programs provide efficiency and convenience, eliminating the once tedious process of pencil and paper logging. They'll even make dinner, wash the dishes, and put them away ;D. But, IMO, they can also make contesting too easy, and lazy in some respects...integrated spotting clusters. Those and CW skimmers automatically find the stations for you (even the needed multipliers), print them out on the screen, and let you scroll,  point, click, and pounce your way down the list without ever touching the VFO knob. To me, that's not a competition challenge, and an example of erosion of skills. Fortunately the contest sponsors level the playing field by having separate categories for assisted and non-assisted operations.

As KJ4Z pointed out, I try to improve my abilities and skills in other areas...not using spots/skimmers, and in the past few years learning SO2R CW operation. A steep learning experience for an "old timer" like me, but I'm getting there ;).
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KB8GAE

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Re: Remote DXpeditioning
« Reply #61 on: February 24, 2023, 04:15:39 PM »

For example, today's contest computer logging programs provide efficiency and convenience, eliminating the once tedious process of pencil and paper logging. They'll even make dinner, wash the dishes, and put them away ;D. But, IMO, they can also make contesting too easy, and lazy in some respects...integrated spotting clusters. Those and CW skimmers automatically find the stations for you (even the needed multipliers), print them out on the screen, and let you scroll,  point, click, and pounce your way down the list without ever touching the VFO knob. To me, that's not a competition challenge, and an example of erosion of skills. Fortunately the contest sponsors level the playing field by having separate categories for assisted and non-assisted operations.


IMHO this video of AA3B using computer logging appears neither lazy or easy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZ-BZuymD78

73 Rich KB8GAE

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K1VSK

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Re: Remote DXpeditioning
« Reply #62 on: February 24, 2023, 06:00:29 PM »



IMHO this video of AA3B using computer logging appears neither lazy or easy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZ-BZuymD78

73 Rich KB8GAE
Sorry. Got to go with K7JQ on this one.
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K7JQ

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Re: Remote DXpeditioning
« Reply #63 on: February 24, 2023, 07:28:15 PM »

For example, today's contest computer logging programs provide efficiency and convenience, eliminating the once tedious process of pencil and paper logging. They'll even make dinner, wash the dishes, and put them away ;D. But, IMO, they can also make contesting too easy, and lazy in some respects...integrated spotting clusters. Those and CW skimmers automatically find the stations for you (even the needed multipliers), print them out on the screen, and let you scroll,  point, click, and pounce your way down the list without ever touching the VFO knob. To me, that's not a competition challenge, and an example of erosion of skills. Fortunately the contest sponsors level the playing field by having separate categories for assisted and non-assisted operations.


IMHO this video of AA3B using computer logging appears neither lazy or easy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZ-BZuymD78

73 Rich KB8GAE

Rich,

You misunderstood my post. Bud AA3B is a very accomplished and talented CW contester. What he is doing on the video is operating an advanced form of SO2R called 2BSIQ (2 Bands, Synchronized Interleaved QSO's) in a CWOps CWT weekly one-hour mini-contest. Using this method, he can, and does, achieve QSO rates well in excess of 250 Q's/hour. Very few have the concentration and ability to do this.

What I was referring to as "lazy" and "erosion of skills" is not the logging program itself, but the use of spotting clusters within the program to merely point and click on a list of spotted stations when in search and pounce mode. Like shooting fish in a barrel. In the video, Bud was running (CQing) on two bands and answering responses in an alternating fashion (interleaved), and *not* using spotting assistance. That video is in no way an example of what I was trying to convey.
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KB8GAE

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Re: Remote DXpeditioning
« Reply #64 on: February 25, 2023, 04:29:53 AM »

Hi Bob,

In the video Bud is in a CWT where the exchange is name and member number for Cwops members and name and state for non members. He is using a call history file which automatically fills in the exchange field once he enters the call sign. If the information in the call history is correct he doesn’t need to type anything in these fields.

I routinely work Bud in the CWT’s. Along with 2BSIQ Bud search and pounces using point and click when his rate slows. I know this because it is not unusual for him to call me when I am running.

Computers have changed contesting over the years. No doubt some skills have may have eroded (very few use a straight key) but other skills have emerged (2BSIQ). IMHO major ham radio contests have never been easy to win or won by lazy ops. Not back in the day and not today.

73 Rich KB8GAE
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K7JQ

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Re: Remote DXpeditioning
« Reply #65 on: February 25, 2023, 06:01:44 AM »

Hi Bob,

In the video Bud is in a CWT where the exchange is name and member number for Cwops members and name and state for non members. He is using a call history file which automatically fills in the exchange field once he enters the call sign. If the information in the call history is correct he doesn’t need to type anything in these fields.

I routinely work Bud in the CWT’s. Along with 2BSIQ Bud search and pounces using point and click when his rate slows. I know this because it is not unusual for him to call me when I am running.

Computers have changed contesting over the years. No doubt some skills have may have eroded (very few use a straight key) but other skills have emerged (2BSIQ). IMHO major ham radio contests have never been easy to win or won by lazy ops. Not back in the day and not today.

73 Rich KB8GAE

No argument there, Rich. I forgot to mention the Call History File…automatic pre-fills in the exchange boxes, which is another (IMO) dilution of skill. Of course, you still have to *listen* if the calling station is not in the file. Also, if the exchange includes a sequential serial number, manual copying is still required.

Winning or placing high in a major contest is a different discussion altogether. Those ops are very experienced and skilled, whether or not they operate assisted with call history files, and have advanced station capabilities as well. Certainly not easy or lazy. Using Bud, who operates assisted in major contests and places high in his category, isn’t typical of the average contester. His skills are extraordinary no matter what. I’d be willing to bet that search and pounce is a very small percentage of his operation. Running and the ability to handle and pick out multiple callers efficiently is a key skill.

Those with smaller stations, consequently having to mostly rely on search and pounce, using point-and-click spotting clusters and call history files isn’t very skillful nor challenging. Actual *listening* and copying is compromised relying on them as a crutch. The spots and call history files aren’t always accurate, and can cost you points. Then again, to each his own as long as they’re having fun.

Sorry to go off the rails with this discussion…should be in the “Contest” forum, but what thread *doesn’t* eventually  go off the rails ;)?

73, Bob K7JQ
« Last Edit: February 25, 2023, 06:10:36 AM by K7JQ »
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W1VT

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Re: Remote DXpeditioning
« Reply #66 on: February 25, 2023, 07:21:05 AM »

I think this is relevant.  I talked to someone about the March 2023 QST Product Review that featured a digital transceiver.  He couldn't believe that it only did digital.  None of his friends would use such a radio.  He needed to talk to someone to confirm that there was a way to plug in a microphone and operate voice with it.  He studied the rear panel and it made no sense to him.  He wanted someone to tell him he could plug it into his 100W amp and run voice with it.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2023, 07:23:43 AM by W1VT »
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N2SR

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Re: Remote DXpeditioning
« Reply #67 on: February 25, 2023, 10:14:17 AM »

No argument there, Rich. I forgot to mention the Call History File…automatic pre-fills in the exchange boxes, which is another (IMO) dilution of skill. Of course, you still have to *listen* if the calling station is not in the file. Also, if the exchange includes a sequential serial number, manual copying is still required.

"Spotting" was in use very far back.  Maybe to the 1970s with M/S (M/2) and M/M stations.  Radio clubs had "secret" simplex frequencies where DX/multiplier information was passed. 

AK1A (Dick Norton) took his idea of "packet" information between dispatchers and individual police vehicles and applied it to ham radio.  His software created a "node" that stations connect to and information is shared amongst the connected users.  Nodes sprang up up and down the East Coast, with UHF links between nodes and individual/station connections to those nodes.  I do not know where else nodes formed. 

Packetcluster, combined with a new contest logging program called ConTest by K1EA. (AK1A's friend) revolutionized contesting.  Now even single ops were using the spotting network, but the contest sponsors had not changed the rules as yet, so those stations were "re-catorigorized" as "+net."   

Packetcluster spots and spotting became very popular, so contest sponsors added Assisted categories to each contest.  It was slow at first, but now almost every contest has an Assisted category.

If you want to blame someone, blame AK1A and K1EA.  Though I don't think you'll have much company. 

Remember, one does not have to actually USE any of the technology.  There is no requirement to use spotting, nor use a Call History File, nor have the computer send the code. 

But my question is (which was part of my last reply to you in the locked 3Y0J thread) do we want to stifle technology?   40 years ago, a friend of mine wrote a logging program for the ARRL 10m contest.  It printed out the log sheets pretty much exactly the way the contest log sheets looked like back then.  However the ARRL actually DQd him because somehow they thought he was "cheating." 

Forty years ago, if one decided to use a computer as a dupe sheet (remember those?) would likely have gotten you a DQ.  Today, the major contest sponsors no longer accept paper log sheets. 

Where do we stop allowing technology to be implemented into contesting?  Where do YOU draw the line?   Maybe we should have an iron man category.  No computers, no spotting network, no radio interfaces, no memory keyers, no auto tune amplifiers, no auto antenna switching, no modern rotators (with digital readouts), no new technology at all.  Let's go back to 1971 and use radios from that year.  Are you willing to sign up for that?   

Winning or placing high in a major contest is a different discussion altogether. Those ops are very experienced and skilled, whether or not they operate assisted with call history files, and have advanced station capabilities as well. Certainly not easy or lazy. Using Bud, who operates assisted in major contests and places high in his category, isn’t typical of the average contester. His skills are extraordinary no matter what. I’d be willing to bet that search and pounce is a very small percentage of his operation. Running and the ability to handle and pick out multiple callers efficiently is a key skill.

There are several guys in SO(A)HP that do 2BSIQ.  K3WW, N3RD, N3RS, etc.  There are several in SOAB as well.  Yes it is a unique skill set that not many people have.  SO2R has become a broad category.  It can be as simple as running on one radio and doing S&P on another radio (on another band).  There is also SO2V, where the second VFO of one radio used to work other stations on the same band.  There is also a "sub-category" of that, where you use two separate radios on the same band. 

That is always the key - picking out a single complete callsign in a pileup.  Master that, and your rate and scores will go up.  It's relatively easy to copy one callsign by itself (especially when it's loud).  It's quite another when there are 10-100+ stations calling at the same time.  There are programs that can help you practice, but like music (which I am not good at) it either takes a special talent or lots of practice (or both). 

Those with smaller stations, consequently having to mostly rely on search and pounce, using point-and-click spotting clusters and call history files isn’t very skillful nor challenging. Actual *listening* and copying is compromised relying on them as a crutch. The spots and call history files aren’t always accurate, and can cost you points. Then again, to each his own as long as they’re having fun.

Maybe not, but as you said, they seem to be having fun.  If not, they likely would not be doing it.  Some have to run and some decide to S&P.  It's the nature of the beast, right? 

Depends.  The RBN is relatively accurate.  Sure there are certain calls that are mis-copied (look up TN2SR, TN2RC, TA1K).  But I'd trust the RBN over most human spotters.  There have been far too many times where typically on a Sunday afternoon, someone doesn't hear a particular callsign and spots it as something else, creating a huge pileup for "common" mult.  Many years ago 6Y5LZ was spotted many times as BY5LZ.  My blacklisted spotters list kept growing until I set my RBN filter to not accept any human spots at all.

73, Bob K7JQ

Just a civil discussion, no? 
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K1JX

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Re: Remote DXpeditioning
« Reply #68 on: February 25, 2023, 10:41:50 AM »

One quibble:  AK1A PacketCluster for ham radio use came before any other application outside ham radio.
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AF5CC

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Re: Remote DXpeditioning
« Reply #69 on: February 25, 2023, 11:49:37 AM »

"Maybe we should have an iron man category.  No computers, no spotting network, no radio interfaces, no memory keyers, no auto tune amplifiers, no auto antenna switching, no modern rotators (with digital readouts), no new technology at all."

Also, tube finals, manual antenna tuners, and straight keys.  Special category if you use a bug.

73 John AF5CC
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K7JQ

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Re: Remote DXpeditioning
« Reply #70 on: February 25, 2023, 12:35:14 PM »

N2SR:

No disagreement with anything you said. I know you've been at the serious contesting game longer than me. For years, I just dabbled in it until I joined AOCC 13 years ago. I learned a lot from the big guns in the Club, and have become a fairly decent (mostly CW) contest operator...but by no means anywhere near elite ;). My station and skills leave me out of "in it to win it" competition. I just have fun, try to beat my previous scores, and contribute points to the overall Club score. Also to see how I compare to others in the Club that have a lot more aluminum in the air.

Having a small HOA bound station, most of my contesting is S&P, especially in DX ones. In order to beef up my scores for the Club, I did a lot of assisted operation. But over the years, I just got tired of the point-and-click, shooting fish in a barrel routine. Probably why I have no interest in FT8. I enjoy turning the VFO knob, finding stations on my own...to me, more challenging with a better sense of accomplishment.

I have nothing against technology, and don't want to stifle it. It's just my opinion that some of the available tools are a crutch that in some cases waters down competitive skill to beef up scores. Using and mixing them in doesn't equate to being any less of an operator...it depends on what you want to accomplish. To each his own, and as I said before, at least there are categories for each class to level the playing field for comparison and ranking. Something for everyone.

And yes, a civil discussion.....

Bob K7JQ




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N2SR

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Re: Remote DXpeditioning
« Reply #71 on: February 25, 2023, 01:19:11 PM »

N2SR:

No disagreement with anything you said. I know you've been at the serious contesting game longer than me. For years, I just dabbled in it until I joined AOCC 13 years ago. I learned a lot from the big guns in the Club, and have become a fairly decent (mostly CW) contest operator...but by no means anywhere near elite ;). My station and skills leave me out of "in it to win it" competition. I just have fun, try to beat my previous scores, and contribute points to the overall Club score. Also to see how I compare to others in the Club that have a lot more aluminum in the air.

To be fair, I started off 35 years ago at a multi-op station, with no real contest experience.  I was a "DXer" and not a runner.  But at another more serious station, I learned about serious running.  I operated at several multis over several years, including a few times in the Caribbean.  After my first time operating in the Caribbean, I was a rate junkie. 

Some have a natural ability, others have to learn and earn it. 

NA2U is a good friend of mine, having known him for 30 years or so.  Say hello for me, though I worked him on a few bands during the contest.  I also know Mike KC7V.  Damn good CW op!

I'm nowhere near elite!  I just keep hacking away.  I suspect that if you could operate at a bigger multi-op you would learn much.  Go with Fred to KH6 or PJ2T and do a multi-op! 

Having a small HOA bound station, most of my contesting is S&P, especially in DX ones. In order to beef up my scores for the Club, I did a lot of assisted operation. But over the years, I just got tired of the point-and-click, shooting fish in a barrel routine. Probably why I have no interest in FT8. I enjoy turning the VFO knob, finding stations on my own...to me, more challenging with a better sense of accomplishment.

Nothing wrong with that.  Our club encourages Assisted because yes, its really the easiest to operate and provides the best "bang for the buck" between scores and part time operating. 

Sure it can be considered that, but also remember that as the new multipliers get more and more scarce during the contest, the pileups increase when a new multiplier is spotted - especially on Sunday afternoon.  Two years ago (?)  VP2VE was spotted on Sunday afternoon on 15m during ARRL SSB.  I think the entire Eastern half of the USA was calling him.   So while some may call it shooting fish in a barrel, being one of several hundred or more that actually hits that fish is the hard part. 

I have nothing against technology, and don't want to stifle it. It's just my opinion that some of the available tools are a crutch that in some cases waters down competitive skill to beef up scores. Using and mixing them in doesn't equate to being any less of an operator...it depends on what you want to accomplish. To each his own, and as I said before, at least there are categories for each class to level the playing field for comparison and ranking. Something for everyone.

And yes, a civil discussion.....

Bob K7JQ

100% agree. 

Now if you want to discuss SO2R vs SO1R..... and why they should be separate categories.....I'm all ears.

Tom, N2SR
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WO7R

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Re: Remote DXpeditioning
« Reply #72 on: February 25, 2023, 02:11:29 PM »

Technology is a double edged sword, always.

The thing is this:  Human acceptance still dominates.  People will not stick with technologies unless, on balance, they are actually helpful.

Google came up with this already forgotten thing called "Google glasses" a while back.  Cool tech.  Practically nobody liked it, fewer wanted it.  There's a big, hidden graveyard of that.  Even decent things like Betamax end up on the scrap heap.

I wouldn't worry too much about hams adopting technology for technology's sake. 

Look at WSJT-X.  It labored in obscurity for years.  JT65 really was never going to be a big thing in HF and it still is not.  FT4 is middling popular at best and maybe will be a big deal, briefly, as the sunspots peak.  But it is obvious that FT8 hit some not-obvious-in-advance sweet spot between utility and human tolerance that FT4 and JT65, two ostensibly similar technologies have not reached and are not likely to reach.

And all three were developed by the same team, including a Nobel prize winner.
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K7JQ

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Re: Remote DXpeditioning
« Reply #73 on: February 25, 2023, 05:21:46 PM »


NA2U is a good friend of mine, having known him for 30 years or so.  Say hello for me, though I worked him on a few bands during the contest.  I also know Mike KC7V.  Damn good CW op!   
 
Now if you want to discuss SO2R vs SO1R..... and why they should be separate categories.....I'm all ears.

Tom, N2SR

Before COVID, a bunch of us Outlaws got together for breakfast on Wed mornings, Fred and Mike included. I've worked with them in the past in a couple of Multi/2 contests at our local N7AT (K8IA) club station. Since COVID, we've been doing Zooms and hopefully will get back to in person breakfasts soon. Some of us old timers have "underlying conditions", so we're taking the restaurant thing cautiously. I'll make sure to send your regards to them!

Yes, SO2R performed properly can be a big advantage. Done poorly, it can be a hindrance. My setup is very basic and still a steep learning curve for this old brain. A different category? I can see the merit in that.

73,  Bob K7JQ
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