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Author Topic: 160 meter load sloper  (Read 347 times)

WB8PFZ

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160 meter load sloper
« on: February 25, 2023, 10:15:53 AM »

After spending most of my 40+ years hamming on the VHF and UHF bands I am trying 160, never been there. I built a loaded 40,80 and 160 meter sloper. Last night i played on the 160 meter contest for a short period. Without the MT-3000 tuner the swr was 3:1.  I could get it down to 1.5. This was up near 1.900mhz. I can"t get it to work down near 1.800. Is it better to be long or short and let the tuner do it's thing.
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WB6BYU

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Re: 160 meter load sloper
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2023, 10:47:33 AM »

Quote from: WB8PFZ

...Without the MT-3000 tuner the swr was 3:1.  I could get it down to 1.5. This was up near 1.900mhz. I can"t get it to work down near 1.800. Is it better to be long or short and let the tuner do it's thing.




Remember, tuners match impedance, not SWR.

Especially on 160m, whether or not a tuner will match an
antenna will depend on the length of the coax, as that
affects the impedance that the tuner sees.  You may find
that adding 25' or 50' of coax changes the results.
That's often the easy fix, as you don't need to fuss with
the antenna.

Generally, I'd resonate the antenna near the center of the
band, or your favorite frequency, as that tends to result
in lower SWR more of the time.

KL7CW

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Re: 160 meter load sloper
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2023, 11:23:09 AM »

What kind of loaded sloped antenna do you have.  Is it a center fed trapped dipole?  Is it half of a trapped dipole fed against the tower as the other leg.  If it is a trapped dipole you can lengthen each end section a few feet to lower the resonant frequency.  If you cannot easily lengthen the upper end leg, you can just lengthen the lower end several feet.  This will unbalance the dipole slightly, but since you are only lowering the resonant frequency a small percentage, all should be OK, especially if you have a coax choke at the feed point.  I have made tests and slight lengthening one leg of a dipole, never resulted in any significant degraded performance in my tests, or degrading the SWR.  If BYU's idea works it may be the best idea yet.  If necessary, you could even switch in different lengths of coax in the shack for different parts of the band.  Probably I would lengthen the antenna end sections so resonance was near the frequency of interest, then experiment with the coax additions to possibly nudge the SWR even lower.  All of my 160 meter antennas were experiments over the last 67 years, some sucked, some were OK, and a few were better.  All 160 meter antennas are compromises for most of us, so just get on the band and gain experience and be prepared to rebuild your antenna farm to meet your objectives.  Any horizontal, or somewhat sloped wire, will be a compromise antenna unless installed hundreds of feet above the ground.  Probably OK for regional QSO's out to a thousand miles, but DX will be poor, but occasionally will be possible.  Get your feet wet with what you have.  If you want DX, other options like an inverted L will probably be better.  For local and regional QSO's a horizontal or slightly sloped antenna may be better. 
           So just get on the air and see if 160 is your "cup of tea" before you spend money and time on the venture. In your situation, it would be difficult to predict how much wire to add, so just add say 5 or 10 feet to the lower end and see how much that lowers the resonant frequency.  Then you can calculate how many feet you need to add.
           Rick  KL7CW   
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WB8PFZ

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Re: 160 meter load sloper
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2023, 11:32:43 AM »

Rick, It is half of a dipole the other side (shield) is grounded to the tower that is 30 foot high. I lengthened the length by 5 foot give or take and now it does not show up on my 259B analyzer.
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WB8PFZ

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Re: 160 meter load sloper
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2023, 11:52:28 AM »

Ok cut off 2 foot and with the tuner swr is flat at 1.830. Will see how it works tonight. I need to investigate the theory on loaded antennas. I could lower the turns on the coils and use more wire.
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KL7CW

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Re: 160 meter load sloper
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2023, 01:41:28 PM »

We still do not know exactly what your antenna is.  If it is a trap dipole, the traps serve two functions.  A trap is usually just a coil in parallel with a capacitor.  The combination is tuned close to the band you want to operate on.  For example, if there is an 80 meter trap (usually the one furthest from the feed point), then the trap does two things.  First of all it isolates the far end section of the antenna and isolates this from the inner sections.  Thus for 80 meter operation, the antenna will be resonant on 80 meters and act like an insulator when you are on 80 meters.  IF your antenna operates on this principle, you do not want to change the number of turns on the 80 meter trap, since it will not isolate the end on 80 meters.  The 80 meter trap is tuned so the capacitive reactance and the inductive reactance are the same, so it acts like an insulator on 80 meters.  When you operate on 160 meters the 80 meter trap has a net inductive reactance, so it acts like an inductor, which typically shortens the amount of wire required for 160 meters.  Typically trap antennas are significantly shorter than a full size antenna, perhaps even something half or 3/4 the length of a full size antenna.  That being said there are some "tricks" designers sometimes utilize to use fewer traps, by tuning the trap for frequencies far away from the ham bands.
      "the swr is flat ????"  what does this mean.  Is the SWR flat on 1830.  Does this mean the SWR is 1:1 at that frequency ?
An efficient antenna on 160 may only have a useable BW or perhaps 50 or 100 KHz maximum, but with a loaded/trap antenna the BW is often much less, probably much less than 50 KHz depending on how capable your antenna tuner is.  A large BW on a loaded antenna, typically implies that there are high losses.  A narrow BW may be a pain, but the antenna may be moderately efficient near resonance.
        Read up on antenna theory, I OVER SIMPLIFIED this text, so excuse me for not mentioning everything.  But hope this helps a bit.     EXPERIMENT, LEARN, and get on the air.......very few of us can build great antennas, but even with compromises, like low heights, QRP power, etc. good QSO's are sometimes possible.
     My last point is that often 160 meters is a wasteland.  Often useless in the summer months, and sometimes poor at other times. In Alaska 160 is often DEAD, part of the reason is that there is little activity on the band.  However on contest weekends especially from say November to March, the band may be loaded with often loud stations thousands of miles away, and if conditions are great, even QRP CW over 2000 miles is possible with a moderate antenna and lots of luck. 
                  Have fun on 160,   I have !   Rick KL7CW Palmer, Alaska
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W1VT

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Re: 160 meter load sloper
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2023, 01:59:51 PM »

I have a 36ft high Inverted-L over wet clay soil.  The good ground conditions make this antenna quite usable with 600W.
Over 7000 contacts in the past decade.  DX is a lot harder than 80M.  Sometimes I'll listen to a DX-pedition for a week or more and only get one shot at working them on 160.
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WA3SKN

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Re: 160 meter load sloper
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2023, 03:56:13 PM »

OK, antennas are not 50 ohms, they are made to look like 50 ohms to please the transmitter.
SWR is basically Z1/Z2.  From you description assume that the impedance is lower than 50 ohms.  Since you can get it down at 1.9 but not lower, assume that either more wire or more coil is needed.  How much is experimental.  Then the tuner should be able to handle the match.  Please note the coil does not do the radiating, but allows the power to enter the antenna system to be radiated.  Also the antenna radiation pattern will not be changed.
And just about EVERYONE uses a compromise antenna on 160m!

-Mike.
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W9IQ

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Re: 160 meter load sloper
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2023, 04:10:29 PM »

OK, antennas are not 50 ohms, they are made to look like 50 ohms to please the transmitter.
SWR is basically Z1/Z2.

Both statements are not accurate. Would you care to correct them?

- Glenn W9IQ
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- Glenn W9IQ

God runs electromagnetics on Monday, Wednesday and Friday by the wave theory and the devil runs it on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday by the Quantum theory.

WB8PFZ

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Re: 160 meter load sloper
« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2023, 04:29:38 PM »

The antenna has 2 coils to shorten the length, not traps. I add a few feet and it seems to work a little better. I was able to get the SWR down on the low end. The other part I am not sure of is I have a lot of rope going from the end to my end support. I would like to unwind some of the coil and run the wire to the end. Is it a foot of wire off the coil to a foot of wire to the end. Hope this makes sense.
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WB6BYU

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Re: 160 meter load sloper
« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2023, 06:54:02 PM »

Quote from: WB8PFZ

...I would like to unwind some of the coil and run the wire to the end. Is it a foot of wire off the coil to a foot of wire to the end...



No.

Well, not necessarily.

What matters is the inductance of the coil, not the
amount of wire used to wind it.

And I suspect that, given your description of the antenna,
the second coil performs two functions:  loading coil for
160m, and a trap for 80m.  I know, there is no visible
capacitor, and it looks just like a coil, but coils have a
self-capacitance, and, depending on the spacing of the
turns and the coil diameter, it is possible to choose
dimensions such that the coil acts like a trap on 80m.

Often the Marketing department will claim, "No Lossy
Traps" for such designs, but those traps based on the
distributed capacitance of the coil are often lossier
than those using discrete capacitors.

So I suspect that any change to the second coil may
change the SWR on 80m in addition to 160m.

W1VT

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Re: 160 meter load sloper
« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2023, 08:14:07 AM »

Yes, a common misconception.  The loading is a function of the effective inductance of the coil.  I say effective inductance because the stray capacitance or intentional trap capacitance will combine to create an effective inductance.  And a foot of wire can be wound in different ways to get different inductor values.
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KL7CW

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Re: 160 meter load sloper
« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2023, 11:08:21 AM »

I would not unwind any turns at this time.  Just add wire to the end section.  It looks like coil which probably acts like an 80 meter trap, was carefully designed to trap 80 meter radiation from entering the end section of the antenna.  IF this was the design intent, if the number of turns on the end coil (trap) is even just changed slightly, this may solve the 160 meter problem, but will change the resonant frequency of the "trap" so it will not isolate the end section on 80 meters and may goof everything up on 80. After you have some experience in a few years you may be able to re-design coils and traps for possibly better performance.  The use of a large coil like you have, is an acceptable design 160 meter operators sometimes use instead of a conventional L C trap. 
     We still do not know your objective on 160 meters.  Is it local nets/rag chews, regional possibly including a few states, or "DX" which on 160 meters means anything over perhaps 2000 miles. IF DX is your primary objective, then an inverted L is a very good way to go, in fact most DX on 160 probably is worked with something like an inverted L.  Ideally, the inverted L will have a vertical radiator at least say 50 feet, or even longer.  Then the remainder of the 140 foot radiator is made up of a wire horizontally from the top of the vertical wire.  Often we cannot make the wire horizontal, so need to slope it downward, when you slope it downward the performance will suffer.  Some folks build successful inverted L antennas with vertical heights of less than 40 feet.  but the L may still be useful so do what you can.  The vertical part can be something like a wire (or aluminum tube) suspended away from the tower several feet.  This idea may be acceptable for an inverted L, but only if you can bury, or lay on the ground hundreds of feet of wire.  Something like at least 8 radials something like 100 feet long, but more shorter radials will work.  Ideally the vertical would have symmetric radials, however most of us have radial fields quite compromised, like radials only say over 180 instead of 360 degrees.  An inverted L may have some features some folks like.  Most of the radiation occurs in the vertical section, and is at relatively low angles which is good for DX.  However some useful radiation occurs in the top "horizontal" wire which may be a big help for more regional or local QSO's.  I have used inverted L's on 160 for many decades, typically with the vertical only 50 or 60 feet high, with good and compromise radial fields.  With 100 watts of CW, or even QRP power levels I have had many QSO's out beyond 1500 miles.  In fact, probably 99 % have been over 1500 miles since the Seattle area is the closest place with significant ham populations from my location N E of Anchorage, Alaska. 
    Get an antenna book, or a copy of 'Low Band DX'ing" if you can find one.  Also there are 160 meter forms on the internet, and over the years some articles in QST with antennas for 160.  Some folks spend more money and time on their radial field, than on the antenna.  I only put in a very compromised radial field on my first inverted L.  I did not know if I could or even enjoy 160 meters.  This poor radial field gave me an opportunity see if I wanted to spend time and money on 160.  This temporary field, which was further degraded by construction back hoe's, gardening, corrosion of some wires, was not improved for another 3 ? decades.  I did not have good scientific documentation of the before and after performance, but subjectively it seemed like a significant improvement.  I have no idea of how many dB I gained, but I would not be surprised if it was as much as 3 to 6 dB.....this is just a very WILD guess.  Presently I have about 32 radials the same length, I believe around 80 or 90 feet.  Some curve around the house, a few have 90 degree bends (not good) and portions of the compass are not visited with my wire radials.  This is roughly half a mile of wire.  A few ground rods will be a poor substitute, but even a dozen 40 foot radials over the 360 degrees would be enough to get you on the air to start.  We cannot answer all questions here, so read up on 160 meter antennas.         
                         Rick KLCW
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WB8PFZ

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Re: 160 meter load sloper
« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2023, 12:39:19 PM »

This was something I built off an article. I did not think a foot for a foot. Yes it is for 40 80 and 160. I have a fan dipole that I would use for 40 and 80 so that is not an issue. This could be just for 160. It has a crappy SWR on 40 without using the tuner. I was playing with it using my MFJ 259 as the rf source and it works well on 18mhz.
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WB8PFZ

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Re: 160 meter load sloper
« Reply #14 on: February 26, 2023, 12:45:25 PM »

Not really interested in DX. Had a fun time this weekend working the contest. Worked 30 or so stations as far as Min. and Texas, not bad for what it is running 100 watts.
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