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Author Topic: Torus loop antenna  (Read 591 times)

SA0PEJ

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Torus loop antenna
« on: February 27, 2023, 06:17:11 AM »

I have been working on a loop antenna that is thick and hollow - doughnut shaped so I call it the Torus Loop. This is a way to compensate short loop with more effective antenna area.

It works quite well and I like to share this project with you, see  article: https://www.eham.net/article/49088

I am would like to discuss this topic with more radio amateurs to evolve this idea.
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WD8OTT

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Re: Torus loop antenna
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2023, 07:50:35 AM »

Great idea to try! one of those ideas, why didn't I think of that. Thank you for sharing.
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AC2EU

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Re: Torus loop antenna
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2023, 08:05:56 AM »

I suppose it improved the bandwidth? Do you have any data to share?

SA0PEJ

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Re: Torus loop antenna
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2023, 12:38:29 PM »

I suppose it improved the bandwidth? Do you have any data to share?

Simulation shows that BW should increase from 2->4 kHz (seems to little) if increasing from 10mm to 100mm tube, but I noticed measured BW@3dB is several hundreds of kHz. I will need to investigate more and come back.

It makes sense that thicker element has wider BW.
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SA0PEJ

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Re: Torus loop antenna
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2023, 07:23:32 AM »

Update With latest description and tests : https://www.dropbox.com/sh/pl0qmfbfsd8rto0/AAD3MOAKdLXYY5acEhEQPBKAa?dl=0

I do not understand thow to predict or calculate bandwidth of Torus versus pipe diameter accurately.
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WB6BYU

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Re: Torus loop antenna
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2023, 09:31:13 AM »

I think there are several issues that are contributing to
the wider measured bandwidth.


First, the resistance of the loop is going to be that of
the tubing when fully stretched, because the length
of the aluminum doesn't change when it is collapsed.
There may be some shortening due to contact between
the aluminum as it folds together, but due to oxidation
or any protective coating, I think you should assume that
the effective resistance of your shorter loop is the same
as if the tube is stretched to its full length.

There is also the effect of the spiral steel wire "spring"
that keeps the aluminum tube from collapsing.  In a
perfect world that would not have an effect if it is totally
inside the tube, but I don't know how well that applies
in this situation.  Any current in that steel will increase
losses.

Another potential problem is the matching system:
The original "Army Loop" did NOT use a split-stator
capacitor.  The two tuning capacitors were ganged, but
they did not have a common terminal.

I would have to go find a link, but imagine having
3 capacitors in series between the ends of the loop:
the outer two (which would be C1 and C2) are ganged
to tune the loop, but note that they do not have a
common terminal.  The inner one (with the feedline
connected across it) is larger and used for impedance
matching.  With a value of 3 pF for C3, that clearly is
not the case here.  For a single band operation, the
middle capacitor can be a fixed value whlie still allowing
the antenna to be tuned across the band.

Your configuration was an adaptation of the "Army
Loop" matching method that allowed using a standard
split-stator capacitor (with a common frame).  While
it is often used, it does not provide the balance that
the original one did, and so it is quite possible that
radiation from your coax is contributing to your radiation
resistance, and hence your wide bandwidth.

While split-stator capacitors are often used to tune
loops, most often they are wired so the loop connects
to each stator, and there is no connection to the frame.
That is because the resistance can be relatively high
in the rotating joints between the shaft and the frame.
Basically, the two sections of the the capacitor are used
in series, which reduces the available capacitance, but
means that the RF path is through one capacitor, along
the shaft, and out the other capacitor, without passing
through the rotating joints.  (In that application there
needs to be a separate method of matching the impedance.)

Also, that particular style of capacitor is not well suited
for tuning small transmitting loops because the capacitor
plates are only press-fit to the shaft, creating a high-
resistance joint.  That's not a problem when the capacitor
is used in a high-impedance parallel-tuned circuit, but
the resistance can be an issue when there is significant
RF current though the capacitor.

One other comment - the original "Army Loop" used
aluminum sections to make an octagonal loop. After
testing, they had to gold-plate the joints to achieve
good efficiency.  That gives you an idea of how
critical contact resistance is in a small loop antenna.


I think your approach is worth further experimenting.
My suggestion is to try modifying the matching method
first to improve balance, and possibly adding a feedline
choke to reduce radiation from the coax.  Then you
will be measuring the characteristics of the loop itself.

You might make a loop of plastic pipe to go inside the
aluminum as a support.  Some of the polyethylene pipe
can be bent into a loop of suitable diameter.

Good luck!

SA0PEJ

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Re: Torus loop antenna
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2023, 07:04:35 AM »

Thank you for all the advices :-)

The antenna works fine, I am just surprised by the bandwidth. The VSWR is excellent 1.02:1 when tuned - so I do not think that would be possible to achieve with resistance in the coupler (I tried in simulator and VSWR goes bad already with 0.001 ohm extra). So I understand why they had to gold plate the sections. My suspicion is either coupling because I have not shielded coupler yet, or it is the geometrical Torus form that cause higher bandwidth - if I calculate outer and inner radius separately they differ 3MHz if they would have been thin loops.

Tube is pure aluminum with no steel inside, but as you say skin effect will cause signal to only flow on its outside surface. But for DC resistance is probably same folded or extended.

The C1/C2 are ganged together and each rotor is connected to loop balanced. stator is grounded. The signal through C3 is injected on one rotor. It behaves well. The 3pF from simulation is misleading in real world C3 is 50-100 pF. I will try your proposal on my next capacitive coupler - I am about to build another one soon that is remote controlled.

Good idea with plastic pipe inside for structure. I hope Torus loop will make it into the practicalantennas.com one day :-)
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SA0PEJ

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Re: Torus loop antenna
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2023, 09:55:10 PM »

First solution was unnecessarily complex. Added second generation to descriptions - easier to build, less parts, cheaper and can handle higher power.

Interestingly, this new coupler solution did not affect bandwidth- so that comes from material and geometry of the loop.
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WA3SKN

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Re: Torus loop antenna
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2023, 02:57:02 PM »

OK, your small loop is simply working as a "capacity hat" and you coax is doing the radiating.  It is not working as a small loop.

-Mike.
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SA0PEJ

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Re: Torus loop antenna
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2023, 08:14:06 PM »

I have checked coax radiation with E/H probe and can guarantee that loop is radiating. Just as the NEC simulation of setup is indicates. It is only a fat STL.
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SA0PEJ

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Re: Torus loop antenna
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2023, 02:20:18 PM »

The bandwidth was not a mystery, SimNEC underestimates BW today.  Entered values used in LTspice simulation that clearly show that with L=1.44uH (measured on loop) and around 100pF on coupler  capacitors the 3dB bandwidth shall be around 1.3 MHz. Description has been updated.

I was thinking that geometry affected BW, that is wrong, just see loop as an inductor and run the numbers.
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SA0PEJ

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Re: Torus loop antenna
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2023, 08:16:52 AM »

I realised that examples values in my previous post were not optimal with 100pF on both. By careful tuning a couple of kHZ is with high Q is obtained. Updated description with better examples.

I also made bad measurement, the 1.3 MHz was actually 135 kHz. (looked at return loss and made a saltomortal in my head and did not read from centre and out…).

Next steps, I will try to make cocoaNEC simulations, to really understand how effective the antenna is.
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