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Author Topic: VKØLD/VK6CQ suggests ARRL revoke 3Y0J DXCC Credit for Endangering Life & Limb  (Read 2985 times)

WO7R

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I am not sure it is our place to protect grown adults from themselves if they don't want to be protected.

Once we set the rules, no I agree with you.  If some fool can get permission for that place (lots of luck on North Sentinel), I can only be one of those that won't contribute to the funding.

But, in truth, you've hit on something vital in all of this.  Getting permission to activate North Sentinel is a fantasy.  As far as I know, it simply isn't available.  Not to anthropologists, not to anyone.  Not since everyone going there of late comes back in a casket, no exceptions unless you run like hell on the initial landing right back to your boat or chopper.

Similarly, we already know that even if it was still on the list, USF&W told us outright they were not going to give any permissions for Kingman, ever again.  Not everyone agrees with me, but I see cause and effect in finding an excuse to take it off the list soon after that announcement. 

Leaving that part aside, modern authorities aren't necessarily allowing any old fool to go to these places any more. They may have their own agendas (environmental interests, or the ancient bureaucratic imperative to "stay out of trouble") but at least these guys are not motivated to under-rate risk.

And, they are not just a random gaggle of people whose only unifying point is some arbitrary "sport" called DXing.  They have some amount of real expertise.  Some of them actually go to most of these places betimes.  They have some clue that we stay at homes do not.

So, to a degree, however informal and loosely tied to the rules it may be, the bureaucrats who give us so much trouble also give us a certain amount of cover when it comes to deciding whether Rock X can actually be done using the proposal of Group Y.  We can and should make our own call in regards to funding of these things.  But we also know that much of the really crazy, high risk stuff is never going to get out of the gate, in the end.  The authorities just won't allow it for safety reasons, environmental reasons, or both.

It's not perfect. There was that guy with the ultra cheap plan for Bouvet.  As I recall the proposal, he was going to hitch a ride on a boat passing Bouvet on its way to somewhere else, be totally abandoned for X weeks, and then get picked up by the boat on its way back.  I thought it was a suicide mission and said so.  But, it was damn cheap and some of us were tempted.  Not enough, however, for him to secure enough actual funding, thank goodness.  We hadn't see the last three expeditions yet when we all made that call on to fund it or not, but now that we have, I think most of us would agree that this goes beyond "not protecting adults" to "financing a suicide by expedition."  Anyone who took a hard pass on that one has my thanks.  So, there still are places that are perhaps a little too permissive.  But, not many.  Most now have some bureaucrat with a 'show me' attitude.



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W1VT

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Activating Ellis Island, home of the Statue of Liberty, required paying for a National Park Service employee to act as a compliance officer for the operation.
It was activating in 2016 when the ARRL sponsored a year long National Parks on the Air operating event to help celebrate the 100th Anniversary of the National Park Service.
As I recall the operation was restricted to just a few hours.
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K6JH

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Suicide mission?

There are a few guys we should encourage…
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73
Jim K6JH

ZL1BBW

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Its been interesting reading the comments and attitudes in here.

1)  They are grown adults let them manage their own risk, yes, but does that mean when it goes belly up, that grown adults who are going to have to put their necks on the line can say, Nah, I aint goin to rescue them,

2) Thankfully there is a video of the experience, this shows just how risky it can be, no survival suit means
A fit person in these circumstances quickly loses the ability to make even basic movements to help keep themselves afloat. There have been many recorded cases of drowning in less than 10 minutes – long before the body core temperature has started to drop or the person is affected by hypothermia.

3) The Master of the vessel would ultimately be held responsible in the event of any inquiry.  I remember one Master proclaiming whats the difference between God and being Master of a vessel?  Well imn here and he aint.  He was quite a character for sure, but he took all of us round the world a couple of times.

4)  The saying there are old sailors (dxpeditoners) and brave sailors (dxpeditoners)  just not many old brave sailors (dxpeditoners) is very true.

5) Should places be ruled to dangerous, well maybe, anywhere can be dangerous if a gung ho group attacks it, I wonder did they have a search and rescue plan, just in case some or the whole dingy full got into strife?  Did they have enough capable seafarers to handle any serious mishap.

This discussion needs to be had, the last we need is headlines, about fatalities/strandings and the like.

Dont berate the writer of the message, consider what information the message brings, you may not want to agree with it, but at least understand it.

Disclaimer: I didnt work them, we were moving house.
                 I have spent a good few years at sea, both as a fisherman, large cargo vessels, small chemical tanker.
                 Have I ever thought this is it, yes, when the Master got all nonimmediate operational crew into the back of the wheelhouse wearing life
                 jackets whilst we entered a port during a severe storm with limited steerage due to rudder getting ready to fall off, (brand new ship) that
                 was freaky.


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ex MN Radio Officer, Portishead Radio GKA, BT Radio Amateur Morse Tester.  Licensed as G3YCP ZL1DAB, now taken over my father (sk) call as ZL1BBW.

VK6CQ

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Evidence of this kind of flippant disregard for safety and ARRL should consider revoking DXCC credit

Why? If somebody wants to be an idiot shouldn't they be allowed to be one? Idiots do all sorts of idiotic things everyday; we just say "what an idiot" and move on.

Paul
Because usually, where there are idiots involved in remote & hazardous locations, some government somewhere or other has to mount a multi-million dollar rescue mission to go pull them out and rescuers have to put their own lives at a completely avoidable risk to do so. If that ain't an  idiot being selfish, dunno what is.
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N0UN

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This now qualifies for the dumbest eHam Thread, ever.

Even worse than the Ten-Tec and 10kW 6 Meter Amp threads(s).

IBTL

"UNNOTIFY" and "IGNORE" even more stupid threads & idiots.  Good grief - you NIL's have lost your mind.  First you QRM DXpeditions, now you QRM eHam.

Get a life.

NØUN
« Last Edit: March 02, 2023, 02:57:43 PM by N0UN »
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AF5CC

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There is a place called North Sentinel, which is part of the Andaman chain.  Nobody activates it -- there are easier -- and safer -- places to go. This island is remarkable because the indigenous population kills foreigners on sight -- and so far, the Indian government doesn't care about the place to actually make it inhabitable in the normal way by putting down this tribal group.

Here is one who won an award trying to go there:

https://darwinawards.com/darwin/darwin2018-13.html

Maybe YASME will have better luck.
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VK6CQ

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This whole thread is bulls**t. These were grown men just on a ham radio *adventure* to a rock/glacier "island" (and I use that term loosely), littered with penguin poop, in one of the most remote, weather beaten areas on Earth. Nobody twisted their arms, and they owed nothing to us (well, maybe they pissed off donors). Had they successfully completed their intended mission, despite the "danger" involved, and doled out 200,000 QSO's, this thread wouldn't even have been started.

That's not the point and not how these things work - in the case of Bouvet Island, South Africa is responsible under international maritime law for SAR in the sector of the South Atlantic where Bouvet Island is located and would have been obliged to send their Agulhas II Antarctic supply vessel to mount a rescue mission.  Why should South Africans be expected to risk their lives to go rescue a bunch of rich-kid Americans & Norwegians who found themselves out of their league and out of their depths in the South Atlantic? Did 3YØJ carry indemnity insurance to pay the huge cost of such an eventuality? If not, they might have found themselves bankrupt when the South African Govt. presented them the bill.
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KD8MJR

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There is a place called North Sentinel, which is part of the Andaman chain.  Nobody activates it -- there are easier -- and safer -- places to go. This island is remarkable because the indigenous population kills foreigners on sight -- and so far, the Indian government doesn't care about the place to actually make it inhabitable in the normal way by putting down this tribal group.

Here is one who won an award trying to go there:

https://darwinawards.com/darwin/darwin2018-13.html

Maybe YASME will have better luck.

Every once and awhile someone Quotes this guy and I remember why I have him on ignore!
So his idea is that the Indian Government should go over there and shoot and kill the Tribal people that own the island and whip them into submission!

Good God I though that kind of thinking died out 100 years ago.
Yes lets kill the Natives, maybe we can use the surviving one's as slave labor to help build the an expensive 5 Star Hotel over their bulldozed Village. 

Here is an idea, why don't we just leave them alone like they have been for hundreds of years.  Maybe they have had past experiences with diseases and know that foreigners bring in all sorts of diseases that can kill them.
Maybe they have immunity to a disease that would be deadly to the rest of us.  Lets not screw with them, because by now we have learned how badly that ends.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2023, 03:23:03 PM by KD8MJR »
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“A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes.”  (Mark Twain)

WO7R

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Why should South Africans be expected to risk their lives to go rescue a bunch of rich-kid Americans & Norwegians who found themselves out of their league and out of their depths in the South Atlantic

I don't know. Maybe South Africa should take it up with Norway.  The permissions, or lack of same, come from Norway.  The "rich kids" are just playing by the rules as they are set up.

And, we've had three expeditions with pretty decent dollars (at least by ham radio standards) all with varying degrees of success.

This one actually came off better than the first two.  It was the first two (with varying degree of "broken boat") that actually were farther in over their heads and actually came closer to needing some kind of rescue.

I don't know why you are singling out the most recent group when, by your professed standards, the other two recent tries deserves at least as much condemnation.

I don't recall you speaking up back then and I don't understand why you aren't talking about it now.  It seems the real critique isn't "after the fact" as you are portraying it.

The better case, by your own professed lights, is exactly what I am suggesting -- changing the rules to rule this sort of thing out of bounds altogether.  On grounds that we, as a group, really cannot fund and vet these things adequately, at least not by your lights.  And, maybe you can persuade enough of us to agree.  This would be so even though most expeditions do come off.  Maybe (you presumably would argue) we've just been lucky.  If so, we've been lucky for at least 30 years now.

And, I don't see how some of these risks don't happen even at relatively nicer places.  If the boat to Baker broke down badly enough -- or if the Braveheart would have broken down to a dozen different places badly enough -- the rescue you are now talking about probably has to happen for those, too, and none of that sort of thing is cheap.  Cheaper, maybe, than Bouvet waters, but not free.

Any place with a big, private charter boat requirement is a big deal if we take your argument seriously.  That's a lot of places, including some that nobody regards as nearly so difficult as Bouvet.

Still, maybe we need all of these groups to have some sort of indemnification.  Or, we let the operators (already spending big bucks) take on the bankruptcy risk.

But it seems like after-the-fact judgements really aren't responsive to what you are talking about.  What ought to be the discussion is whether we really can do these things.  We do not, as a group, have an unlimited budget.  If a more realistic plan, with adequate safety margins, takes 2 million bucks to activate a Bouvet or Peter I, then we probably should admit we can't do these and take them off the list.

But, limited as it was, 3Y0J actually happened, nobody died or even went to hospital.  It is, by any standard, a limited success.  It's a strange one to carp about after the very bad turns (that could have been much worse) that preceded it.

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VK6CQ

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The rule could read:

Section II, Rule 6: Because of the special level of danger and expense, the following entities are deleted as of <date> and will not be reconsidered:

Bouvet
Peter I
Heard


We could maybe add a few others like South Sandwich, maybe even South Georgia.

Seems that news of 3YØJ's dismal safety performance travels quickly on the diplomatic grapevine:   According to my very reliable contact in the Govt. of South Georgia & South Sandwich Islands in Stanley, Falkland Islands, amateur radio licences for these two locations will now longer be issued and any DXpedition that might be in the pipeline to VPØ, VP8/g & VP8/s will no longer be approved.   Australian, French and New Zealanders will probably go the same way, if not already done so Tusen takk, folkens!    >:( :-[
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WO7R

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So his idea is that the Indian Government should go over there and shoot and kill the Tribal people that own the island and whip them into submission!

Someone should tell him to adjust his humor/sarcasm meter.  It is simply a fact that this tribe is being left alone (something very unusual).  It is also a simple historic fact that most indigenous people have been whipped into submission.  That is the historic norm.  I didn't think I had to say it was commendable that the Indian government has not.  In fact, it is about the only such case I know about.  The rest were "whipped", starting with Columbus.

Sheesh.
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WO7R

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Seems that news of 3YØJ's dismal safety performance travels quickly on the diplomatic grapevine:   According to my very reliable contact in the Govt. of South Georgia & South Sandwich Islands in Stanley, Falkland Islands, amateur radio licences for these two locations will now longer be issued and any DXpedition that might be in the pipeline to VPØ, VP8/g & VP8/s will no longer be approved.   Australian, French and New Zealanders will probably go the same way, if not already done so Tusen takk, folkens!

I would very much like to see a public confirmation of this.

The world hasn't worked like this for the whole 30 years I have been a ham.  If these guys going ashore as they did has made this big change, in spite of nothing actually going wrong, it deserves to become better than what amounts to a rumor.  And, it needs some amount of airing out.

When will your well-placed friend (or his boss) make the public announcement?  We do deserve to know.
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AF5CC

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According to my very reliable contact in the Govt. of South Georgia & South Sandwich Islands in Stanley, Falkland Islands, amateur radio licences for these two locations will now longer be issued and any DXpedition that might be in the pipeline to VPØ, VP8/g & VP8/s will no longer be approved. 

Unless they make a large enough campaign contribution to the PM of the UK. 

BTW, who is Prime Minister this week?
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VK6CQ

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Why should South Africans be expected to risk their lives to go rescue a bunch of rich-kid Americans & Norwegians who found themselves out of their league and out of their depths in the South Atlantic

I don't know. Maybe South Africa should take it up with Norway.  The permissions, or lack of same, come from Norway.  The "rich kids" are just playing by the rules as they are set up.

And, we've had three expeditions with pretty decent dollars (at least by ham radio standards) all with varying degrees of success.

This one actually came off better than the first two.  It was the first two (with varying degree of "broken boat") that actually were farther in over their heads and actually came closer to needing some kind of rescue.

I don't know why you are singling out the most recent group when, by your professed standards, the other two recent tries deserves at least as much condemnation.

I don't recall you speaking up back then and I don't understand why you aren't talking about it now.  It seems the real critique isn't "after the fact" as you are portraying it.

Larry: I did think seriously about raising the matter of Bouvet Island and remote / hazardous DXpedition safety at the time of the 3YØZ, then 3YØI force majeure aborted attempts. However in the end I decided not to do so. Mainly because I was reluctant to bruise any egos that were bruised enough already, ruffle any DX peacock feathers or raise my head above the parapet and face a torrent of abuse from the 'Acolyte Army', with an occasional sensible comment thrown in by the cooler and more rational heads within our hobby. 

However, this time round, when I saw photos of guys posing for selfies under unstable ice-cliff, floundering around on the beach and in the surf wearing clumsy immersion suits instead of full boating dry suits & lifejacket I thought 'enough is enough already - it's time to bite the bullet and speak out'.  If some people don't like the taste of truth, well they're of course welcome to spit it out - but the aftertaste is still gonna be there. Better to accept justified criticism and learn something from it.

From the huge pile of supportive emails in my Inbox the last 48 hours, seems like the vast majority of the DX Community around the world (including VE, LA, DK, F etc.) are on my side and glad someone finally had the guts to point to the Three Hundred Pound Gorilla in the Room.   

Only protests of disbelief that someone would dare have the temerity to question the ARRL's wisdom and its holy scripture 'The DXCC Rules' are coming from the USA; that beacon of liberty, 'Land of the Free' and 'Land of the Right of  Individuals to Do Incredibly Stupid Things'. For example: carry a gun into McDonalds (as long as it's not concealed, of course!), go hunt big game in Africa and shoot zebras for fun, go to Bouvet Island and get yourself marooned there, crushed by collapsing ice cliff or commit hari-kiri in the surf wearing your waders etc. etc. etc.
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