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Author Topic: Need help with signal readability and strength after changing antenna vhf / uhf  (Read 276 times)

K4RKX

  • Posts: 12
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Hello Amateur Elmers,

After reading, studying, and testing technician, general, and extra.  I have a better knowledge of
radio and theory but I am one of those students that learn by repetition.

After installing a new NR22L monoband diamond antenna 2 x 5/8 +1/4  for 2 meters on my 2007 honda accord . I tested my icom 2730a to make sure readability and signal would be great between the newly installed antenna and my home base unit icom 9700.

All went well.

Also I took out my rig expert and swr showed 1.2

So on the way home from work I thought I would check into the net about 50 miles south west as I am traveling I-95 north , going home.

The Net Control heard my original call sign check in but as I go further away about 5 miles or so  when I was called upon and responded with my rag chew, the net control came back to me saying i  could not be heard as my signal had dropped .

I wonder if I set up an SDR at work and record the drive from work to home which is about an hour would this be the best way to check signal readability and signal strength?

am i being to optomistic that 50 watts out of my icom 2730a should travel perfectly 50 miles ? the line of sight from wilson to raleigh is 280 to 300 sealevel no big hills ?   Large antenna in Raleigh?

Is there another way to obtain signal quality and strength?
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KE6SLS

  • Member
  • Posts: 104

Hi Chris,

A few things not mentioned:  what is antenna installed on, and where?
Are there trees, buildings, towns between you and the repeater?
Is the repeater will maintained?  I can't tell you how botched many repeater installs are!

Also, this antenna is not UHF at all, it is a monoband VHF antenna.  I think you might be confused since it uses a UHF mount.

That antenna should be a good player offering very good gain, especially for a mobile op like you.

If you can use an SDR and test your rig into that repeater, it would likely be very helpful for you.  Perhaps putting out a call periodically indicating your position/location.

I use either a ~1/4 or a ~1/2 dual band and have very good signals into most repeaters.  However, there are some machines that don't hear as well as others.  So over time, I learned what repeater I could use well, and other repeaters to use when I am further south etc.

Keep testings and working the system and find your sweet spots and best repeaters to use.

73
Jaye
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K9AO

  • Member
  • Posts: 35

I'd be interested to know where the antenna was mounted on your car and relative to the car which direction was the repeater?

The idea here is that the metal in the roof of the car, or the lack thereof will affect the antenna pattern especially along the horizon. You could test this thought out yourself by driving to an unused parking lot that is in the clear of obstructions, buildings, etc., and during a net on the repeater look at the S meter of your radio and drive in a small circle. Note any change (it will likely be pretty noticeable) on signal strength as you change the orientation of the car relative to the repeater.

50 watts is a goodly amount of power, so this would not be a radio issue (I have an IC-2720).

A few links for you to take a look at on this:

https://www.rfcafe.com/references/popular-electronics/antenna-placement-popular-electronics-november-1966.htm

https://w6nbc.com/articles/2012-03QST2mmounting.pdf

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K5LXP

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All other things being equal, line of sight is going to dominate your path.  Is this a mountaintop repeater?  It's largely reciprocal so if you're hearing the repeater, it should hear you (unless it's a crappy repeater).

Then there's the "all other things", are you actually putting out 50W?  Are you transmitting on the repeater input with proper PL tone?  Do other repeaters work OK?

Mark K5LXP
Albuquerque, NM
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KA4WJA

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Chris,
Good show here, asking questions!  :)    And, I need to be brief... So, I'll get right to work!

1)  First off, we are assuming that the "net" you write of is on a specific repeater?  (but, we aren't sure about that)

2)  If it is a repeater, where is it located?  And, most importantly, how high-up is its antenna? The number that is important here is HAAT (Height Above Average Terrain), height above sea level or height above the ground immediately below the repeater are not important....(just as example, a repeater on a 30' tower on top of the tallest hill for 100 miles is infinitely better than a repeater on top of a 500' tower in the bottom of a deep valley surrounded by 600' high hills, etc., etc..)

3)  Is it closer to your home, or work?  Which direction is it, when you're driving each way?

4)  Have you tried this same drive over many days?  Have you made sure that there weren't any local tropo-enhancement during your earlier drives with your previous antenna?  {I wish to stress this point / question here...as, this past few weeks we've had some early morning and late afternoon temperature inversions here in Florida and the SE US....not everyday, mind you, but quite often enough that I've had distant VHF-hi-band Digital TV stations interfering with my local TV stations!  And, if your previous antenna testing was done on those days, the tests of the "new" antenna cannot be accurately compared....now, maybe you've not encountered any enhancement, or you've already thought of this and accounted for it....so, forgive me if I'm bringing-up a red herring!}

5)  You made no mention of what antenna you replaced?  And, this would normally be my number one point....but, wanted to highlight a few other things here as well...

Nor, where / how it was mounted on your Accord?  And, confirming that whatever antenna it was, wherever/however it was mounted/installed, you are using the same repeater / net as before?  (also confirm, you were also using 50 watts with that antenna?)

6)  And, as others have asked....where / how is this new antenna mounted?  If you have a strong roof mount (not a mag mount!) on the roof of your Accord, then you're golden....but if it's on a bumper-mount you've got some issues with both the vehicle blocking part of the antenna as well as the significant skewing of the antenna's azimuthal pattern....if you have a "trunk-lip" mount, it's usually about halfway between these two install situations, but also remember that you must make sure you have a very good antenna base to vehicle contact (make sure you have very good contact, not on the paint but on the steel)...

Many times, we find a simple antenna on the roof center will outperform the "big boys", because of where the "big boys" are mounted/installed....just saying, even if all is done as best you can, sometimes having a smaller antenna on the car can be better!  :)


7)  FYI, the NR22L is two 5/8's waves (with a loaded 1/4-wave decoupling/stub, that should not radiate)....and it is a big bugger!  (even bigger than the old "king" of 2m mobile antenna's the ole' Hustler 5/8's over a 1/4-wave colinear)  As such when moving at highway speeds it WILL bend over....and, since it's elevation radiation-pattern is tighter than a single 5/8's and much tighter than a simple 1/4-wave whip, you will find yourself introducing a null in your pattern on the horizon while moving at speed, but having a better pattern on the horizon when stopped (or moving slowly)

This is one reason that these larger 2m antennas are mostly almost exclusively out in the country, on back roads, where speeds are lower....and, where the tight elevation pattern is accepted as the compromise needed to "get" to the distant stations (as opposed as to those in cities / suburban areas, where close obstructions rule the comms range)

Of course, the other reason is they are so big that most cannot mount them properly (center of their vehicle roof)... hi hi...


8 )  Finally a comment of the NR22L itself....make sure it is assembled properly and that the softer metals (brass?) isn't flexing too much and that it is making good contact all the time it is bending/flexing in the wind at highway speeds.


Okay, Chris, I have to go....hope this helps?

73,
John,  KA4WJA

P.S.  In regards to "crappy" repeaters....allow me to defend my fellow repeater owners....it's a friggin' thankless job!  And, when a problem does come up way up on top of the tower it is a COSTLY and time-consuming adventure to arrange a crew, etc. to repair/replace antennas!

So, some times a repeater can have issues that "arm-chair" hams complain about, but there's not more than one in a thousand that will pony-up and take the reponsibility (and pay the $$$$) to be johnny-on-the-spot and keep it working 100%, 100% of the time!

Just saying, yes...yes, some repeaters are CRAPPY!  But, some are also just waiting for the time and $$$$ to clean them up!  So, please be kind.  :)
« Last Edit: March 03, 2023, 12:21:13 PM by KA4WJA »
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W1VT

  • Member
  • Posts: 6071

http://radiomobile.pe1mew.nl/
Free software for predicting repeater coverage.

There may  be compromises with the antenna, as the best spots on a tower go to the highest paying customers.

A ham repeater antenna may in a compromised location halfway down the tower.  It is hard to get omni coverage down there.
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K4RKX

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Hi Chris,

A few things not mentioned:  what is antenna installed on, and where?
Are there trees, buildings, towns between you and the repeater?
Is the repeater will maintained?  I can't tell you how botched many repeater installs are!

Also, this antenna is not UHF at all, it is a monoband VHF antenna.  I think you might be confused since it uses a UHF mount.

That antenna should be a good player offering very good gain, especially for a mobile op like you.

If you can use an SDR and test your rig into that repeater, it would likely be very helpful for you.  Perhaps putting out a call periodically indicating your position/location.

I use either a ~1/4 or a ~1/2 dual band and have very good signals into most repeaters.  However, there are some machines that don't hear as well as others.  So over time, I learned what repeater I could use well, and other repeaters to use when I am further south etc.

Keep testings and working the system and find your sweet spots and best repeaters to use.

73
Jaye

Yes sir Jay, thank you for the reply. 

I am running the Diamond antenna NR22L  on a 2007 Honda accord sedan .

The antenna is mounted on the passenger side trunk lid with a diamond K400S Style mount
I went over the the Diamond Antenna website and DX Engineering and the both confirm 2 METER operation only.  I think the repeater is 147.270

it is a uhf style mount,  it is VHF

The repeater is to my west when I was driving North at 70 mph. I can hear them like they are in my back seat  a strong 5 for readability and a strong 9 plus 10 signal.   

There are many pine trees and growth between I95 AND Garner/Raleigh.

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K4RKX

  • Posts: 12
    • HomeURL

Hi Chris,

A few things not mentioned:  what is antenna installed on, and where?
Are there trees, buildings, towns between you and the repeater?
Is the repeater will maintained?  I can't tell you how botched many repeater installs are!

Also, this antenna is not UHF at all, it is a monoband VHF antenna.  I think you might be confused since it uses a UHF mount.

That antenna should be a good player offering very good gain, especially for a mobile op like you.

If you can use an SDR and test your rig into that repeater, it would likely be very helpful for you.  Perhaps putting out a call periodically indicating your position/location.

I use either a ~1/4 or a ~1/2 dual band and have very good signals into most repeaters.  However, there are some machines that don't hear as well as others.  So over time, I learned what repeater I could use well, and other repeaters to use when I am further south etc.

Keep testings and working the system and find your sweet spots and best repeaters to use.

73
Jaye

Yes sir Jay, thank you for the reply. 

I am running the Diamond antenna NR22L  on a 2007 Honda accord sedan .

The antenna is mounted on the passenger side trunk lid with a diamond K400S Style mount
I went over the the Diamond Antenna website and DX Engineering and the both confirm 2 METER operation only.  I think the repeater is 147.270

it is a uhf style mount,  it is VHF

The repeater is to my west when I was driving North at 70 mph. I can hear them like they are in my back seat  a strong 5 for readability and a strong 9 plus 10 signal.   

There are many pine trees and growth between I95 AND Garner/Raleigh.


I think the repeater is maintained "or at least the tower" is maintained well b/c it is the new tower for WRAL TV 5  at 1,865' height.  I think the amateur radio clubs lease a spot on the tower.
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K4RKX

  • Posts: 12
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Chris,
Good show here, asking questions!  :)    And, I need to be brief... So, I'll get right to work!

1)  First off, we are assuming that the "net" you write of is on a specific repeater?  (but, we aren't sure about that)

2)  If it is a repeater, where is it located?  And, most importantly, how high-up is its antenna? The number that is important here is HAAT (Height Above Average Terrain), height above sea level or height above the ground immediately below the repeater are not important....(just as example, a repeater on a 30' tower on top of the tallest hill for 100 miles is infinitely better than a repeater on top of a 500' tower in the bottom of a deep valley surrounded by 600' high hills, etc., etc..)

3)  Is it closer to your home, or work?  Which direction is it, when you're driving each way?

4)  Have you tried this same drive over many days?  Have you made sure that there weren't any local tropo-enhancement during your earlier drives with your previous antenna?  {I wish to stress this point / question here...as, this past few weeks we've had some early morning and late afternoon temperature inversions here in Florida and the SE US....not everyday, mind you, but quite often enough that I've had distant VHF-hi-band Digital TV stations interfering with my local TV stations!  And, if your previous antenna testing was done on those days, the tests of the "new" antenna cannot be accurately compared....now, maybe you've not encountered any enhancement, or you've already thought of this and accounted for it....so, forgive me if I'm bringing-up a red herring!}

5)  You made no mention of what antenna you replaced?  And, this would normally be my number one point....but, wanted to highlight a few other things here as well...

Nor, where / how it was mounted on your Accord?  And, confirming that whatever antenna it was, wherever/however it was mounted/installed, you are using the same repeater / net as before?  (also confirm, you were also using 50 watts with that antenna?)

6)  And, as others have asked....where / how is this new antenna mounted?  If you have a strong roof mount (not a mag mount!) on the roof of your Accord, then you're golden....but if it's on a bumper-mount you've got some issues with both the vehicle blocking part of the antenna as well as the significant skewing of the antenna's azimuthal pattern....if you have a "trunk-lip" mount, it's usually about halfway between these two install situations, but also remember that you must make sure you have a very good antenna base to vehicle contact (make sure you have very good contact, not on the paint but on the steel)...

Many times, we find a simple antenna on the roof center will outperform the "big boys", because of where the "big boys" are mounted/installed....just saying, even if all is done as best you can, sometimes having a smaller antenna on the car can be better!  :)


7)  FYI, the NR22L is two 5/8's waves (with a loaded 1/4-wave decoupling/stub, that should not radiate)....and it is a big bugger!  (even bigger than the old "king" of 2m mobile antenna's the ole' Hustler 5/8's over a 1/4-wave colinear)  As such when moving at highway speeds it WILL bend over....and, since it's elevation radiation-pattern is tighter than a single 5/8's and much tighter than a simple 1/4-wave whip, you will find yourself introducing a null in your pattern on the horizon while moving at speed, but having a better pattern on the horizon when stopped (or moving slowly)

This is one reason that these larger 2m antennas are mostly almost exclusively out in the country, on back roads, where speeds are lower....and, where the tight elevation pattern is accepted as the compromise needed to "get" to the distant stations (as opposed as to those in cities / suburban areas, where close obstructions rule the comms range)

Of course, the other reason is they are so big that most cannot mount them properly (center of their vehicle roof)... hi hi...


8 )  Finally a comment of the NR22L itself....make sure it is assembled properly and that the softer metals (brass?) isn't flexing too much and that it is making good contact all the time it is bending/flexing in the wind at highway speeds.


Okay, Chris, I have to go....hope this helps?

73,
John,  KA4WJA

P.S.  In regards to "crappy" repeaters....allow me to defend my fellow repeater owners....it's a friggin' thankless job!  And, when a problem does come up way up on top of the tower it is a COSTLY and time-consuming adventure to arrange a crew, etc. to repair/replace antennas!

So, some times a repeater can have issues that "arm-chair" hams complain about, but there's not more than one in a thousand that will pony-up and take the reponsibility (and pay the $$$$) to be johnny-on-the-spot and keep it working 100%, 100% of the time!

Just saying, yes...yes, some repeaters are CRAPPY!  But, some are also just waiting for the time and $$$$ to clean them up!  So, please be kind.  :)

John,  Awesome great and many thanks to all of you!! ,  I remember someone with a honda that needed to run a metal strap from the trunk lid to the unibody aka frame... what have you...   

I have the straps so I will get to work grounding the doors , hood, and trunk lid.  I will remove the k400s mount and grind like all get out to get the paint all the way removed underneith where the set screws push that 1/8 piece of metal that sandwich's the trunk lid between the mount and the 4 set screws.

I am way back in the country so this antenna has really made a difference on my reception on the ride home.  Im starting to think I need to ride with the rigmaster connected moving 65mph to see if those 8 values change and record them.  I dont know what im gonna do with them but i have  you good people and a complete handbook set from ARRL and The big "Antenna Book" from ARRL. 

I will use the rig expert as a "flight data recorder" and log the event from work to home and get some numbers back over here for your oversight.

Look !!   Thank you all  so so much !!   73  and Have a great day today and better day tomorrow!!
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G4AON

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  • Posts: 2178

My background is in mobile radio systems, may I offer a few comments?

50 miles is a long distance on 2m for a repeater, especially for good results from a moving vehicle. It doesn’t take much “clutter” to foul up signals. Buildings and large trucks will cause multi-path that result in large signal fluctuations. Long whip antennas also bend at speed further altering signal levels while moving.

In addition, a repeater may not receive as well as it transmits, depending on antenna and filter configuration.

A 5/8th, or 2 x 5/8th antenna has a high impedance feed (with a matching stub or coil), don’t worry too much about earth bonding on your car. Just check the mount connects electrically to the metalwork it is fitted to.

Finally, do other mobile hams in your area work into the same repeater with good signals, ie is it your setup or the repeater that is the issue?

73 Dave
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K4RKX

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thank you for the help friend. 73
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WB6BYU

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  • Posts: 20896
    • Practical Antennas

Is it possible to set up and operate in motion with
an SWR / power meter connected between the
radio and the antenna?  (At least for testing.)

I’ve had issues with intermittent joints in mobile
antennas that worked fine while parked, but
became erratic at speed.  That would also help
to monitor that your output power stayed as
expected when transmitting.  (An intermittent
ground connection could cause the transmitter
to reduce power, even if reception was still good.)

K0UA

  • Member
  • Posts: 9589

And, If and When you remove the paint on the underside of the trunk lip, BE SURE to cover the bare steel with a good anti-oxident like Sanchem's No-Ox-Id. It is a grease that will cover the metal and prevent it from oxidizing (rusting in this case) Just screw down the allen screws into the completely greased area. It should last the life of the install.

One source for No-Ox-Id is Amazon.  It is manufactured by Sanchem.

https://www.amazon.com/NO-OX-ID-Special-Electrical-Contact-Corrosion/dp/B00HDF9EXE/ref=sr_1_1?crid=29IG1AQZAINP4&keywords=No-Ox-Id&qid=1677969444&sprefix=%2Caps%2C126&sr=8-1
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73  James K0UA
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