Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5   Go Down

Author Topic: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?  (Read 1582 times)

WO7R

  • Member
  • Posts: 6041
Re: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2023, 05:12:29 AM »

Quote
Many of us in the old days learned Morse Code in all sorts of ways that are considered "wrong" today: we counted dits; we visualized long and short sounds in characters, etc. Eventually, and rather quickly because we weren't told we were doing things "wrong" our speed increased and we went, automatically, from counting dits or dahs to hearing the overall sounds of characters.

But consider our objectives back then:  Licenses were based on three different code speeds:

1)  5 WPM for Novice
2) 13 WPM for General
3) 20 WPM for Extra

A lot of people learned code "the wrong way" because they did not, at least for a long while, have it as an actual objective to go all the way to 20.

More power to you if you "naturally" moved between these levels.  I did not and many, many, many did not.  The levels were chosen to make that, in fact, unnatural.

It used to be (don't think there's much of it now) a lot of people in the Novice HF CW bands, that were loping along at 5 to 12 WPM.  Even Extras, in a kind mood, would tune into those band segments and work you at those speeds.

The different speeds were set for different ways the brain recognizes code.  5 to 12 is a speed where one can recognize code by listening to individual dots and dashes.  One can learn to recognize code that way at such speeds.

Many of us did so, because learning code, at any speed, is hard and there was real value in learning 5 WPM.  You needed it to do as much as talk 2m FM on a repeated back then.  If you had no objective but getting licensed, it could make a lot of sense to learn code at 5 WPM.  That was enough to get you to Tech and if you didn't care about HF, that got you into a lot of things (this far back 2m FM was a much bigger deal than it is today).  There were (probably still are) a lot of guys that turned 6m into a sort of specialty band and refused to use code because 5 WPM was just a way to get that microphone in one's hand.

However, if one does that (and a great many of us did), one then had to unlearn counting dots and dashes because the brain is such that you can't reliably recognize Morse Code at 13 (certainly not 18) by picking out individual dots and dashes any more.  That's darn near a human universal and, in fact, the three speeds were chosen because that is so.

And, it was a struggle for many of us (me included) precisely because we had to unlearn what got us to 5.

Getting from 13 to 20 was a slightly different struggle.  At that point, one had already abandoned individual dots and dashes, but the requirement to at least sometimes "copy back" -- remember a letter or two while decoding the current one -- was a different struggle.  But, once again, there was a certain amount of unlearning to be done.  I know several people that just couldn't get past the 20 barrier.  There were people suggesting, back in the day, that it was because they didn't go straight to 20 -- that is, they learned code for the FCC/VEC test and not really as a thing in itself.  I don't know since I didn't take that road.  But it might be true.

Well, in any case, I did all three but only because my rationale changed over time and because, well, I wanted the license and 5 is fairly easy to learn.  But, then I wanted HF and so I struggled, really struggled, for 13.  Doing so, it got me to Advanced and most of the privileges.  Then, a few years later, I decided I needed 20 for my DXing.  There was a lot of DX to be had at 14.024 in those days. 

I was at an Advanced level for quite a while and had almost all the frequency privileges.  Had I not gotten into DXing in such a big way (or if I had put up a bigger station) I might have stayed at 13 to 18 indefinitely.  A lot of hams did back then.

I also, frankly, dropped out of Morse code for a while when I finally got to 13 and did a lot of my beginner DXing with Phone only.  Then,  I wised up.  Then, 20 became the goal and not just to get a license.

This is why I asked what the goal was.  We forget, now, that a lot of people hated code that was force-fed to them as the price of getting a license.  Such people learned code at 5 or 13 just to get the license they wanted and did little code after that in many, many cases.  People don't want to admit that was so these days, but it was so.

There used to be Slow Speed Traffic Handling nets to accommodate the many who couldn't or wouldn't do the work to go to 20.  They could still contribute, just at a slower speed.

A lot of hams did stop at 13, at least until they took up DXing in a serious way and figured out that 20 to 25 WPM was a kind of secret society to success for modest stations.

But, when we dropped the code tests, we also largely dropped the rationale for some of these old, slower speeds.

In 2023, I would advise precisely nobody to learn the code at 5 WPM and I don't think many do.  There is no longer a purpose for it. 

The salient question is whether to try to go straight to 20.  It's hard, harder than 13, but if you do it, then you won't have to break whatever habits form in the human brain when you do 13 but don't do the work to learn 20.

There are, presumably, more mental tricks required to operate about 25.  I never learned them.  But I do know that at that level, you aren't writing anything down.  You are hearing and comprehending whole phrases, not just individual letters.  It becomes an actual language.

So, whether it was to get a Novice or Tech back in the day or high speed CW ragchewing today, the speed one aims for has to do with what the objectives are.

As far as I can make out, if you only care about DXing or contesting, 18 to 25 is a good objective.  If you want real conversation, you might want more than that.  Both for the sheer speed of it and also for the stamina (for lack of a better term) to go beyond the name, rank, serial number level exchanges.

But either one of those really sets the minimum bar at 20.  There may be some hidden activities, unknown to me, where 13 to 18 WPM still reigns supreme.  I just don't know what they are.  I would be very surprised to find places where 5 to 12 WPM is still a highly populated place.  Maybe a few still hang out in the old Novice segments -- I haven't listened in, so it could still be a thing.  But, I doubt it.

Logged

AC1LC

  • Posts: 97
    • HomeURL
Re: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2023, 05:29:21 AM »

Wow.  It doesn't look like you *want* to learn Morse code (for the joy of it!).  It sounds like, "I decided that I'm going to get a colonoscopy so I can find out if I have cancer or not.  Do I really need to do it next week?"

Simple answer to your question:  No, you don't have to use the Koch method.  There are at least a couple other ways to learn morse code.  Use your favorite search engine and enter "methods or strategies to learn Morse code".

It's just that the Koch method has demonstrated to be more successful than others.

After that comes words instead of characters.

But today's Morse code operator is usually a "599 TU" operator, so just learning contest exchanges and copying call signs might be all you "need" today.

Sorry if I gave the wrong impression...I really do want to learn code, I want to expand my amateur radio operational capabilities and I don't like staying static, I always want to learn more and become better at whatever I'm doing.  If it came across wrong I'm sorry about that...I really, really do want to learn Morse code.  It's just that the 20wpm rate with the Koch method doesn't seem to "click" with my brain.  That's why I was looking for input from experienced operators. 

That being said, after reading everything everyone wrote, I'm going to keep working at it.  I'm working on learning the letters by sound, not by counting dahs and dits.  I know it's going to take time but I'm determined that I'm going to get there.  I think back to my high school days when I took typing.  They wouldn't let the boys in home economics class and typing was the only other class with a 10 to 1 female to male ratio...I believe the military calls it a target rich environment, so I signed up for typing.  Anyway, I learned to type 40wpm on a manual typewriter and actually got up to 60wpm on an electric typewriter.  I can type on a computer faster than I can think sometimes.  But, we started out just hitting two keys on the typewriter, then three, then four. I guess I'll apply the same method to learning Morse code.  Learn a couple letters by sound, then three, then four and just keep at it.  I get a kick out of some of the Youtube videos I've seen, you know, the "Learn Morse Code in 15 minutes" ones. 

I'm not interested in contesting, that's not why I got into amateur radio.  I want to be able to rag chew or in a worst case scenario be able to send legible messages for EmComm (I'm a member of my local ARES unit).  I know there are plenty of other modes available but I'm a bit of a traditionalist for a lot of things...like pickup trucks and Jeeps should have two doors...anything more and it's a minivan or station wagon!

Again, thanks for all the input.  I'm heading back and strain the brain some more and continue the quest.
Logged

WO7R

  • Member
  • Posts: 6041
Re: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2023, 05:58:08 AM »

Whatever your target speed (and, painfully, I did learn at several levels, not recommended :) ) the only constant was:  Do something every night.

Most authorities recommended a minimum of 20 minutes a day (evening realistically).  However, I found that there were busy days where I couldn't manage it.  I had a job, kids, etc.

If I managed something, even five or ten minutes, then the fall off for "slacking" was always less.

Persistence, in my case anyway, seemed to be the most single, critical factor.  It should be a short but intensive little period of our lives.  A few really can't learn past certain levels of speed.  But, for the vast majority, persistence is the one constant you'll hear about when you talk to people about their learning experience of this.  Especially those that got to the end goal.
Logged

N8TGQ

  • Member
  • Posts: 50
Re: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2023, 06:14:13 AM »

I have worked CW QRP for 30 years and seldom go above 15 WPM. There are plenty of people to talk with at those speeds.

I know at least 10 hams who have spent YEARS trying for 20 WPM. But they're too embarassed to get on the air at anything less. WTH?

If you know the characters, get on the air and have fun! Even if you have to write everything out to start. It's much easier to get better at things if you're having fun and enjoying yourself.

It's a hobby, folks, not a doctoral thesis. It's supposed to lower your stress and relax you. Quality over quantity.

I'll be looking for you on the air at whatever speed you're comforatable at. I will slow down to your speed, but I don't do "599-73" QSOs. So you'll have plenty ot time to practice, make mistakes and get comforatable.

Have fun!
Rick N8TGQ
Logged

K5LXP

  • Member
  • Posts: 6823
    • homeURL
Re: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2023, 06:37:23 AM »

No disagreement with any of the comments posted thus far.  Lots of experience speaking.  I learned the "wrong" way too, suffering through the "plateaus" of 5, 13 and 20wpm.  I can't unlearn it to test the theory but it sure seems to make sense to just learn it at useful speeds.  I remember as a novice/tech how painful it was to have a QRS QSO.  Just exchanging basic info took forever.  Not that every QSO has to be QRQ but I know for sure I wouldn't want to be stuck at QRS.

My comment is to learn CW how you intend to use it.  Maybe your goal is to be a traffic handler and type all your QSO's while sitting in front of a computer.  If it's not, I think you're training yourself to do something that won't do you a lot of good.  I can type 100 wpm and am comfortable at 35 wpm head copy.  But even when I know what's being sent, "copying behind", etc, I vapor lock when trying to type CW.  Maybe with sufficient practice I might get it down but then what's the point - I never copy QSO's even with a pen, why should I with a keyboard?  I operate QRP portable a lot, and my favorite is mobile CW.  Neither is conducive to a keyboard and that's when the merits of "conversational" CW kicked in.  By operating in environments where I can't write anything, and at speeds where you start to hear words and not just letters, the door opened wide.  So all the rote training and practice with software might be a good foundation, but if you really want to learn how to copy fast CW, you start listening to fast CW.  What I would recommend is participating in some CW contests where the calls and exchanges are coming fast and furious.  I also used an MP3 player sending QRQ plain text while I was out and about doing whatever.  Way faster than I could easily copy, like 45wpm.  Over time you catch yourself hearing words just like you don't have to think about typing the word "and" and "the".  The more you do it, the more words you'll recognize, and the more fun you'll have.

Mark K5LXP
Albuquerque, NM
Logged

K0UA

  • Member
  • Posts: 9589
Re: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
« Reply #20 on: March 06, 2023, 08:06:23 AM »

As an Amateur that started learning at 5 wpm and counting the dits and dahs, especially the numbers, I can definitely tell you that you will be handicapped for the rest of your life. I am. I went up the CW ladder slowly, and hated every rung. No, hated is not a strong enough word, I LOATHED CW.

 When I passed Extra in 1975 with GREAT difficulty, and by the skin of my teeth, I vowed to NEVER listen to or work CW again. Great,  I made it to the promised land, and intended to never look back. Microphones and keyboards for me. BUT CW is a necessary evil. You HAVE to work it for some of the best DX. I have NEVER been comfortable with working CW during a ragchew. I have done it, and I do it sometimes, but that doesn't meant I have to like it. I have been a CW cripple for over 50 years.

I can copy my callsign at 35 wpm and 5NN sounds great to me. That and little else is all you need to know to work the DX.  That and EU and UP and NA and AS and a few more. You have to think of these things as words, You just have to. Your old "bad habits" of slow speed will crop up all of the time. It is like a "flinch" in shooting, once you have a "flinch" it is very hard to get rid of it.  Learning slow speed CW is a mistake. I am living proof.

Now the good news:. I have been getting better!  Not good, but better. The key is practice. The more CW I do, even like working POTA CW stations, the better I get and the more the hadicap fades. Maybe by the time I am SK, I might be tolerable.  ;D

Oh, and if you wanted my advice on straight keys and bugs,, my advice would be to throw them away. Especially bugs. The straight keys can be useful for sending a continuous carrier for tune up of amps and tuners. Yes, I can send pretty good code at maybe up to close to 15 wpm on a straight key, but it sucks, bigtime. Learn to send on a good set of paddles from the get go. They are much easier on your hands, and the "flow" and automatic sending is so much easier and your sending will be SO much better.

Practice just enough on a straight key to be able to send SOS on a couple of bare wires if you are ever locked in the trunk of an automobile.   ;D

Now you know how I feel about my lifelong handicap, my struggle to do better, and My ideas on how to learn. Take if for what you will. But it has been my struggle. It would profit you to avoid my folly.
Logged
73  James K0UA

K3JLS

  • Member
  • Posts: 60
Re: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
« Reply #21 on: March 06, 2023, 08:16:42 AM »

Make a habit of listening to the W1AW code practice sessions and - when you are working in the shack - leave the rig on tuned to a CW conversation - this worked for me when I was 15, and I'm sure it will work for you, as well.
Logged

LNXAUTHOR

  • Member
  • Posts: 108
Re: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
« Reply #22 on: March 06, 2023, 01:42:03 PM »

my story:

1. passed 5 wpm element to get my General and on HF
2. 20 years go by
3. got ticked off at myself last summer and said to myself that i wanted to do CW
4. immersed in learning to copy at 20 wpm
5. practiced sending 5-letter code groups at 15 wpm
6. made first CW contact last December (POTA exchange format)
7. now only do CW for the most part
8. can now recognize and make exchanges even at the low-signal levels
9. starting to recognize words
10. still working on proper sending/spacing
11. next hurdle is copying callsigns correctly

this is only over the last three months and after learning letters, numbers, and a few select symbols (period, slash, question mark, etc.)

i am very grateful to all other CW ops; i try to listen, use patience, not zero-beat ops, never tune up on a freq without making sure it is clear, not jump in over other ops, wait until a small pileup clears, and try to gauge the other op's style

i do have a heck of a time though with some straight keyers, bugs, and bad CW tones... then i just spin the dial

good luck on your efforts... i have found CW to be very rewarding... it truly is magic, and i am making more contacts every time i go out, even in lousy band conditions...

btw, all my operating is QRP /
« Last Edit: March 06, 2023, 01:44:36 PM by LNXAUTHOR »
Logged

WA3SKN

  • Member
  • Posts: 8126
Re: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
« Reply #23 on: March 06, 2023, 03:07:00 PM »

You don't HAVE to learn Morse code, but I recommend it.
And you do not HAVE to learn fast CW, but it is nice to.  Not everyone can or will learn by the Koch method.
"And there is a joy to operating slow CW that is very satisfying.
However, remember that the original reason for fast CW was the commercial side got paid by the message... so faster CW meant MORE MONEY!  And they were measured by number of messages sent.
So learn it, enjoy it... no matter the speed.  After all, the limiting factor has always been the ability on the RECEIVE side, not transmit!

-Mike.
Logged

AC1LC

  • Posts: 97
    • HomeURL
Re: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
« Reply #24 on: March 06, 2023, 03:38:36 PM »

OK, I just tried something.  I'm using LCWO.net and the program sends the letters at 20wpm speed.  I was having a terrible time trying to keep up but I just found the adjustment so add a bit more space between the letters while they are still being transmitted at 20wpm speed.  That made a world of difference.  I'm able to hear the letter sounds better now and I can actually recognize them in the correct order.  I figure I'll start reducing the spacing as I get more comfortable.  This minor change definitely reduced the frustration/stress level.
Logged

AC2EU

  • Member
  • Posts: 2793
    • McVey Electronics
Re: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
« Reply #25 on: March 06, 2023, 04:41:17 PM »

OK, I just tried something.  I'm using LCWO.net and the program sends the letters at 20wpm speed.  I was having a terrible time trying to keep up but I just found the adjustment so add a bit more space between the letters while they are still being transmitted at 20wpm speed.  That made a world of difference.  I'm able to hear the letter sounds better now and I can actually recognize them in the correct order.  I figure I'll start reducing the spacing as I get more comfortable.  This minor change definitely reduced the frustration/stress level.

There ya go!

W1VT

  • Member
  • Posts: 6071
Re: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
« Reply #26 on: March 06, 2023, 04:53:55 PM »

How many hams you can work depends on both your location and station.  It is far easier to find stations in New England than Hawaii!
A QRP station will find it tougher to find stations they can work than someone with a high, full sized antenna, and a 100W radio.

Logged

K4WH

  • Member
  • Posts: 109
Re: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
« Reply #27 on: March 06, 2023, 05:25:46 PM »

Raul.  Actually, you are doing pretty good.  Like someone else said, do it because you like it, and just find the place that works good for you.  CW can be a language of its own that when sent well is beautiful.  I think that today everyone wants to be a speed demon.  People just try to send as fast as they can and run all the characters together hard for lots of people to copy.  DX and contest stations are trying to send so fast its hard to get their call correct.  To be honest I will sometimes use the CW copy feature on my Kenwood 890S or use FLDIGI to copy the really fast stations.  I also have a Hamcrafters K44 reader.

There are different methods to use for learning.  I never tried the Koch, have heard of it.  I used the Farnsworth.  Back in 1980 a friend of mine made up Farnsworth cassette tapes for me recording of an AEA keyer.  I was 31 then and had been a SWL listener since my teens and had tried to learn CW code on and off.

As K9AO and others have pointed out there are real mental barriers at certain code speeds.  I have read old articles that mentioned that the REALLLY old, old timers got the FCC years back, to go to 13 WPM because they knew it would wash out a lot of people. I think they had wanted 12 wpm.  I always found 15 easier than 13, and 22 easier than 20. 

If you can find a program will show the character on a screen that will help.  Also sending.  I would bet that if you get an old fashion straight key, and practice sending nice and slow you will also bring up your copy speed.  Send anything out of a book or magazine, don’t forget numbers.  Find a youtube video that has a person sending with a straight key to get the since of the rhythm.  Get that for the rhythm for each letter and number and it will stick with you.  Your head will connect with what you hand is doing and the sound it makes.  You will still find Keyers made by “AEA” for sale use. There are several on Ebay right now for sale under 60 dollars ( the Morsematic model ).  They have a Farnsworth trainer built in.  If the seller does not have a manual, they are on line.  You can set up your Farnsworth training as you like.  Had mine for over 30 yrs now, will never sell it.

Don’t get frustrated.  Maybe take a break.  Or better yet get of the air and actually make some contacts.  Join the SKCC group as others have pointed out.  Just find slow stations and just copy them as best you can.  SKCC is really getting people to get back on the air to have CW fun not to worry if they are perfect.  I am hearing lots of slow senders no, and an awful lot of them are old timers just having fun. 

Lastly.  Please   ……….  Don’t be sucked into buying one of these bright and shiny Vibroplex “BUGS”.  Most of the worst senders are trying to use a “BUG”.  A great key, but ….. it takes lots of practice get the sending down perfect.  Do get a decent Paddle either single lever or dual.  Again most people never send real Iambic (dual squeeze Paddles) correctly, they just slap the left and right paddles, which is fine, but if most people who try a single arm paddle ( not a BUG ), will get better results, because most people are slappers at heart.  Have fun


Logged

AC2EU

  • Member
  • Posts: 2793
    • McVey Electronics
Re: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
« Reply #28 on: March 06, 2023, 05:44:50 PM »

Quote
Lastly.  Please   ……….  Don’t be sucked into buying one of these bright and shiny Vibroplex “BUGS”.  Most of the worst senders are trying to use a “BUG”.  A great key, but ….. it takes lots of practice get the sending down perfect.  Do get a decent Paddle either single lever or dual.  Again most people never send real Iambic (dual squeeze Paddles) correctly, they just slap the left and right paddles, which is fine, but if most people who try a single arm paddle ( not a BUG ), will get better results, because most people are slappers at heart.  Have fun

Amen! A Bug is just an early "mechanical keyer" before electronic keyers were possible. Other than learning how to use a piece of CW history, I see no need to use one. they require good rhythm and timing from the user. Unfortunately most do not posses this skill or they think the garbage they send is "cool"? Never could figure it out. You will hardly know it's a Bug if  they are a good Bug Op. 

I actually enjoy using my Navy straight key.

W6MK

  • Posts: 4095
    • HomeURL
Re: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
« Reply #29 on: March 06, 2023, 10:09:33 PM »

But consider our objectives back then:
1)  5 WPM for Novice
2) 13 WPM for General
3) 20 WPM for Extra

More power to you if you "naturally" moved between these levels.  I did not and many, many, many did not.  The levels were chosen to make that, in fact.

The different speeds were set for different ways the brain recognizes code.  5 to 12 is a speed where one can recognize code by listening to individual dots and dashes.  One can learn to recognize code that way at such speeds.

One then had to unlearn counting dots and dashes because the brain is such that you can't reliably recognize Morse Code at 13 (certainly not 18) by picking out individual dots and dashes any more.  That's darn near a human universal and, in fact, the three speeds were chosen because that is so.

And, it was a struggle for many of us (me included) precisely because we had to unlearn what got us to 5.

But, once again, there was a certain amount of unlearning to be done.

I have to wonder about the mindset that specifies exactly what speed in wpm needs to be learned to pass a certain license test. I don't recall ever doing that.

Seems to me that we learned slow speeds at first and very naturally our speed capability increased. Like playing scales or a tune on the piano. One starts slowly and over time one's speed naturally increases. Same as learning any physical/mental task. One recites a poem slowly at first as one works at recalling the next word, phrase, line. One slices onions or carrots slowly at first, then as a safe technique develops, one chops quite chop chop.

When I took my Novice exam given by a General back in the late 50s, I think my examiner set the speed at something a bit over 5 wpm (using an Instructograph keying an audio oscillator). I was quite capable of copying at 10 wpm so 5 wpm was not a problem. When I took the code exam at the FCC office a year later, after a lazy year of Novice contacts, I could copy comfortably at something over 15 wpm. I passed the exam easily. I didn't practice only at 13 wpm. In fact I simply went on the air and worked whatever stations I could.

Even if one copies only at first only 5 wpm or at 13 wpm or at 20 wpm, one's top copying speed will gradually increase beyond any perceived "barrier" automatically. This is because, with repetition, the human brain gradually learns to perform tasks better, more efficiently and faster. Yes, it is likely that one can increase speed at a greater rate if one tries to go faster, but going faster is not a requirement for increasing speed.

The secret to mastering speed is the constant automatic learning, with repetition, if how to go slower more efficiently. For learning many kinds of tasks, the traditional motto has been "to go fast, go slow."

As for the need to unlearn a task before learning how to do a task faster, that makes absolutely no sense to me. I've never seen any reference to such a process in any competent discussion of learning theory in any psychology textbook.

On the other hand there are people, a small minority I think, who struggle with learning Morse Code. Some people never learn to recognize musical rhythms or to remember tunes. Most of us who took Morse Code exams in the old days found them to be fairly easy.

The militaries of many countries taught millions of people to be Morse Code operators with great success.

Often unmentioned, but critical to learning Morse Code or any other task, is the need to learn when one is relaxed and focused. One needs to avoid multitasking, which is a severe hindrance. Learning is greatly enhanced in social situations and when learning tasks are designed to be enjoyable as well as challenging.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2023, 10:21:12 PM by W6MK »
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5   Go Up