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Author Topic: Short tower on a clay tile roof  (Read 467 times)

W3LFR

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Short tower on a clay tile roof
« on: March 07, 2023, 08:46:47 AM »

I'm reconsidering installing a hexbeam on my tile roof, using a short tower. My main concern is leakage through the bolt holes. My other concern is that the tiles where the legs sit will need to be removed and either drilled (if possible without cracking) or replaced with some other type of matching tile that can be drilled or cut and placed around the legs. I would have a roofing contractor do the work, so they should know how to do it.

Has anyone installed a rooftop tower on a clay tile roof?
Thanks.
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K9AO

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Re: Short tower on a clay tile roof
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2023, 09:08:22 AM »

I can't see how that would be anything but a nightmare.

Put a tower next to the house and tie it in if you have to or better get a self supporting tower and space it a bit away and be done with it. Lightning goes to ground and not to the house to start a fire.
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K1VSK

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Re: Short tower on a clay tile roof
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2023, 09:24:16 AM »

I would have a roofing contractor do the work, so they should know how to do it.

Has anyone installed a rooftop tower on a clay tile roof?
Thanks.
I like your optimism albeit misplaced. The biggest problem here where tile roofs are ubiquitous is improper installation. Add any complexity to the mix and these roofers often do more harm than good with things seemingly as simple as solar panel installations.

Not to mention what a roof mounted antenna does to curb appeal.

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KF4HR

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Re: Short tower on a clay tile roof
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2023, 09:48:35 AM »

It might be considerable easier to just use a telescoping mast on the side of your house and secure it at the top of your roof eve. 
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K6BRN

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Re: Short tower on a clay tile roof
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2023, 10:46:54 AM »

I'm reconsidering installing a hexbeam on my tile roof, using a short tower. My main concern is leakage through the bolt holes. My other concern is that the tiles where the legs sit will need to be removed and either drilled (if possible without cracking) or replaced with some other type of matching tile that can be drilled or cut and placed around the legs. I would have a roofing contractor do the work, so they should know how to do it.

Has anyone installed a rooftop tower on a clay tile roof?
Thanks.

All clay tile roofs have an "underlayment" of either tarred 'felt" or sheets of pebbled asphalt roofing material that is the final, "real' waterproofing barrier.  The latter material is much better and longer lasting (50 years+) while the former may need to be replaced, especially if disturbed, at about 20 years.  The upper layer of clay tiles breaks the impact of falling rain, hail and snow and sheds a lot of the falling moisture, protects the underlayment from impact damage and sun, but is very fragile and easy to break if walked on.

In short, a clay tile roof is a SYSTEM - a relatively fragile one - and if disturbed can require very expensive repairs.  Which is why many solar panel installers decline to work on them in SoCal.

I installed a retractible, through-roof mast that has minimal roof penetraion in just ONE area.  This unguyed steel mast is internally reinforced and rises to a rotor at about 12 feet above roof level.  A 3 element Yagi mounts about 2 feet above the base of the rotor and a secondary mast with a 2-element 6M antenna at the midpoint and a triband VHF/UHF vertical above that.  It's stood the test of time and quite a few windstorms.

But... after putting in the antennas and rotor (at roof level, because the mast retracts into the home), a number of tiles had to be replaced by a roofer - along the entire access path from the side of the roof and around the antenna mount.  The roof penetration point had already been built into the home as required by local code, for a solar hot water plant that was never put in.  Waterproofing of the mast/penetration point seal is pretty easy, using a special, non-asphalt roofing mastic.  But this mastic must be trimmed away to lower the antenna, which is only done for servicing.

The mast mount and roofing and ceiling joists inside the attic required extensive structural bracing as well as winch installation, to handle constant mast motion and oscillating torque due to wind.

In short, I made a minimal roof penetration point install work on a clay tile roof, because I had to.  I do NOT reccommend putting a more significant structure on a tile roof due to its suseptibility to damage, especially during a more complex, multi-hole mount install and then antenna install (better think THAT one through!).  A leaking roof or a rooftop structural failure in a strong wind can cause extensive damage to your home, eliminating any perceived cost advantage.

As pointed out, a side mounted or detached  tower would be a better way to go and it would keep you off the roof.  If you have a suitably strong (generally wood framed/stuccoed) chimney on the SIDE of the home, it MAY be possible to mount a small antenna there, on a very short mast, via strap mounts.  Many do.  But small unreinforced masonry chimneys can crack and break up over time due to working stress.

In general, you really, really do not want to walk on a clay tile roof, nor should you poke holes through it.  The bill to fix even minor issues can range from $4K to $10K and roof replacement is MUCH more.

In contrast, asphalt shingle roofs tolerate "walking around" well and bolt penetration points can be easily sealed.  Even roof replacement is relatively inexpensive (RELATIVELY!).  But antenna install method is still an issue and roof reinforcement and/or structure guying is usually necessary.  So roof mounted antenna structures may not be a cheaper alternative to a side mounted or self-standing tower. 

The primary advantage of a roof mount is that it can sometimes avoid the need for tricky permitting in a tower restricted suburban environment.  But even then, most cities place antenna height and structure restrictions on roof mounted antennas.

Brian - K6BRN 
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N2SR

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Re: Short tower on a clay tile roof
« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2023, 10:50:54 AM »

Cut a hole in the roof big enough for the tower.  Bring the tower inside the house and turn it vertical so it runs up through the hole.   

Use a blue plastic tarp to cover the opening around the tower.  Be sure and use a few tubes of RTV.

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KH6AQ

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Re: Short tower on a clay tile roof
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2023, 12:27:09 PM »

I'm reconsidering installing a hexbeam on my tile roof, using a short tower. My main concern is leakage through the bolt holes. My other concern is that the tiles where the legs sit will need to be removed and either drilled (if possible without cracking) or replaced with some other type of matching tile that can be drilled or cut and placed around the legs. I would have a roofing contractor do the work, so they should know how to do it.

Has anyone installed a rooftop tower on a clay tile roof?
Thanks.

A few questions...

Would this be installed at a peak with the roof sloping off in two opposite directions?

How hight above the roof do you want to have the Hexbeam?

Can you install guy wires?
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KC6RWI

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Re: Short tower on a clay tile roof
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2023, 12:30:54 PM »

No wonder I read eham,the things you can learn, now I have a handful of reasons to
never buy a house with a clay tile roof.
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K1VSK

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Re: Short tower on a clay tile roof
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2023, 12:55:33 PM »

No wonder I read eham,the things you can learn, now I have a handful of reasons to
never buy a house with a clay tile roof.
we have owned homes with clay tile, slate and typical asphalt fiberglass shingles. The first two were prettier. The latter is the only one which worked as it should and didn’t require periodic maintenance.
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WA3SKN

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Re: Short tower on a clay tile roof
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2023, 02:44:42 PM »

I don't know any company that would insure it.  Building permits will be required, have you discussed this plan with the local office?  They might give you some practical advice.

-Mike.
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W3LFR

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Re: Short tower on a clay tile roof
« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2023, 03:44:30 PM »

I haven't discussed it with anyone yet, and I'm starting to have serious doubts. I had lunch at my favorite Chinese restaurant today, and just by chance, the house across the street was having solar installed. The installers had removed the clay tiles under the solar panel locations and replaced them with composite roofing. They were installing the panels on top of the composite roof sections and 'framing' the panels with clay tiles so the composite shingles couldn't be seen. Very clever.

My house is about 35 years old and still has the original clay tile roof. I've had two minor leaks over the years, and I know tar paper doesn't last forever. The roof tower I would consider would be 5' and straddle the peak of the roof in the rear with no guy wires. It is a nice neighborhood, so aesthetics are important, even though my neighbors are cool with my antennas. I would never consider a monster beam for this reason and others.

The better option would be to install a tower and bracket it to the side of the house. Unfortunately I would need to take down my 40M dipole to make room. Maybe 20-10 would be enough bands to keep me happy.
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KH6AQ

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Re: Short tower on a clay tile roof
« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2023, 04:16:33 PM »

The safe solution is as you say, a bracketed tower to the side of the house. For 40 meters would a vertical in the yard do? Or a dipole off the tower?

I was going to suggest a roof tower mount using 1/16" stainless steel aircraft cable guy lines. No holes need to be made in the roof.

The high bands are fantastic this year and getting better as solar cycle 25 continues to climb. The Hexbeam would get you on 20-6 meters which is good because 6 meter DX has been open everyday for the past few weeks.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2023, 04:20:37 PM by KH6AQ »
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W3LFR

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Re: Short tower on a clay tile roof
« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2023, 07:08:08 PM »

The safe solution is as you say, a bracketed tower to the side of the house. For 40 meters would a vertical in the yard do? Or a dipole off the tower?
I can't erect a vertical in the backyard, as there's not enough room for radials. But it may be possible to use the tower as a dipole support. Something to consider.

Thanks all for the comments.
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KF6QEX

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Re: Short tower on a clay tile roof
« Reply #13 on: March 07, 2023, 07:31:44 PM »

Not all verticals need radials.

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KL7CW

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Re: Short tower on a clay tile roof
« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2023, 10:30:16 AM »

A 40 meter dipole does not "need" to be full size and in a straight line and perform "acceptably".  An inverted V or dipole with legs not exactly in line may only be something like perhaps a dB or two down from a full size horizontal dipole.  A loaded (loading coils, or linear loading) dipole will perform very close to a full size dipole IF it is over or well over half size, say 3/4 size or something like that, possibly only a dB down from a full size dipole.  HOWEVER, there is no such thing as a free lunch, any loaded (trap, coils, or linear loading) will have reduced bandwidth.  If you only want to operate CW or Phone, probably enough BW, but possibly not if you want the whole band, but with an ATU in the shack, it might be possible, especially if the antenna is near full size.
    Multiband trap dipoles are often close to half size, BUT often require adjusting on multiple bands, have limited BW and have significant losses, but are good options for some folks. 
     If I had your problem, and I had room for a 2/3 or 3/4 size 40 meter dipole, I would construct loading coils and place them about half way out each leg.  Ideally, the coils would be nearly square and perhaps two inches or so in diameter, BUT, you could make them a bit slimmer and longer, perhaps 1 inch in diameter and 2, 3 or 4 inches long.  Losses would be a bit higher, but I doubt you would lose even a dB.  If loading coils out on the legs are too ugly, you could load the dipole with inductance right in the center (feed point) of the dipole, with slightly more loss.  Probably not good for very short dipoles, but if it is something like 3/4 size might work fine.  If the feed point Z is too low, a hairpin (shunt coil, etc) right at the antenna end of the coax would raise it to 50 ohms. 
      If you have the money, a remote ATU right at the top of the tower would probably match something like a 3/4 size 40 meter dipole (without loading coils) on all of 40 meters, and "possibly" you would pick up 30 and 60 meters also (not guaranteed on 60 meters). Efficiency would probably be acceptable, and you MIGHT get lucky and it would tune on some WARC bands like 17 and 12 meters...probably not !!
      Do your research, there are lots of ideas which might work.  One thing not mentioned yet is that if you could only erect say a half size dipole, you could drop the ends down toward the ground (to make it full size), or zig zag them sloped or horizontally, and only degrade the dipole very slightly.  Just try and not drop the ends down close to the ground, try for at least 10 feet above the ground, but for sure go high enough so folks cannot touch the end, it is a very high voltage point of the dipole.
      I have used roof mounts and many towers on the ground.  Personally, I still climb, so favor ground mounted towers since in my 68 years as a ham, I have never put up a permanent antenna.  I change bands, experiment with different antennas, etc. so can just climb up and put up a dipole, quad, yagi, HF, VHF, or whatever and do not need to climb all over the roof which is icy and snow covered over half of the year here in Alaska.  At one time, decades ago I had multiple roof mounted short towers and poles on the roof.  Probably had at least 15 roof penetrations, and never a leak.  If there was a significant load, I reinforced the mounting area in the attic, that is not a minor task, but a normal person can do it !   I used lots of a tar like substance.  Never had anything fail, but after about 40 years when we added on to the house and installed a new roof, I put all my antennas on my ground mounted towers.  If you guy your roof mount tower, there will probably be significant "humming" noise when it is windy.  I was lucky, our bedroom was right under the roof towers, but it never bothered my wife or me in the slightest, she said it was just like sleeping in a sailboat, which in our case was even worse, with all the clanking, groaning, and humming from all the boat rigging.         There are probably better ideas than mine, I just wanted you to think outside the box for a solution.
                               Rick   KL7CW  Palmer, Alaska
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