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Author Topic: Short tower on a clay tile roof  (Read 466 times)

KL7CW

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Re: Short tower on a clay tile roof
« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2023, 11:03:02 AM »

If you do go to a remote ATU at the top of your tower, it is very possible that it would tune a length of wire on 60,80, and even 160 meters fed against your grounded tower.  Now I am not a fan of ATU's normally since they are well less than 100 % efficient in many situations, but for portable operation, or in HOA environments they often get the job done.  A large manual ATU may be very efficient in contrast in many situations.  A good remote ATU to run over 100 watts, will be expensive, or very expensive, or possibly not work with say a KW.  Personally, at home, I always build my own matching networks, which probably have over 90 % efficiency.
  If you use a remote ATU and eventually want it to tune a single wire on the lower bands, you could use a simple relay to change the configuration.  If you do use a remote ATU be sure to decouple you coax, and the power and control leads probably with type 31 ferrite cores.  A friend did this, and it worked well for him on many bands.  A strange pattern on various bands, and probably not highly efficient on many bands, but it worked for him "good enough" to have lots of fun and even some DX.
                  Rick  KL7CW
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W3LFR

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Re: Short tower on a clay tile roof
« Reply #16 on: March 09, 2023, 08:30:04 AM »

Thanks for the thoughtful posts Rick. I could still use my 40M dipole if I position the tower where the support mast is currently located. The downside of that arrangement is that the tower would need enough height above the roof line so the antenna would clear the peak when turned. It is certainly an option though.
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KL7CW

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Re: Short tower on a clay tile roof
« Reply #17 on: March 09, 2023, 09:33:19 AM »

The easiest solution might be to consider installing a 2 or 3 element Yagi instead of the Hex beam.  Performance might be similar (do some research.)  Typical 3 band (20,15,10) trap Yagi beams are only roughly (I think) 3/4 size elements  (research this) and some of the 2 element versions (less gain) have rather short booms, perhaps only 4 to 6 feet (research this).  I am not a fan of trap Yagi's or dipoles, but have used them when necessary and they are not as bad as some folks say, but for sure not ideal. 
     It is expensive, but you should research STEPPIR they have some rather small efficient 2 and 3 element Yagi's, especially if you only want 20 through 6 meters.  Do read up yourself on the STEPPIR, many folks do not like them and maintenance is sometimes an issue, plan on spending at least a few K bucks.  I have had my 3 el STEPPIR up 60 feet in Alaska for nearly 20 years, winds up to around 100 MPH very occasionally, but every winter well over 60 MPH.  Perhaps I was lucky, but I would do my own maintenance anyway.  Cranes and professional tower workers are VERY expensive, so think this over carefully.
  One reason I suggested a YAGI is that you could get a bit more antenna to roof clearance.  I would try hard to have a very minimum of 5 feet clearance between the lowest part of any antenna and the roof.  In the old days I would see and had friends who had small yagi antennas only perhaps 4 to 6 feet above the roof.  Not at all ideal, but they had fun and worked some DX. Also traveling around the US and Europe, in the past small beams just a few feet above the roof were not uncommon.  Now I am sure the performance was a compromise, but they got on the air.  One advantage of a short tower (like ROHN 25) is that in the future you could always stack another 10 foot (or whatever) section(s) on the top in the future if you had funds and other folks did not object.  Another wild thought, I know some quads were erected like a diamond shape, with the low point at the rotator, is this a possibility for a hex beam.  Make sure the polarization is still horizontal.  This would give you a few feet more of roof clearance.  This was just a thought, research this before doing anything.              Rick  KL7CW
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VR2AX

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Re: Short tower on a clay tile roof
« Reply #18 on: March 09, 2023, 11:00:54 AM »

A normal house roof is a poor structural support for any antenna. It's function is to keep the the building wind and weather tight, the trusses, purlins and rafters with felt above do that job, the tiles/slates help to run off the water. It also supports the weight of the ceilings of the floor under itself, which maybe more than you would think. Lot of other good suggestions
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W3LFR

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Re: Short tower on a clay tile roof
« Reply #19 on: March 09, 2023, 03:46:36 PM »

I would never pay the price for a Steppir yagi. Amateur radio is an occasional hobby for me, and I don't do contests - just a little DX and some ragchewing now and then, so I can't jusify a Steppir or any conventional yagi. Moreover, I don't want to make waves in the neighborhood with residents outside of my immediate neighbors (my local neighbors are OK with my antennas). That's why a hexbeam or mini-beam would be preferable. I  live on a hill, and I doubt a hexbeam or mini-beam would be readily noticed - and not enough to affect resale value. Placing a short tower anchored to the side of the house in a couple places with a few feet of sturdy mast above it seems like a good solution.
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K6BRN

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Re: Short tower on a clay tile roof
« Reply #20 on: March 09, 2023, 04:24:30 PM »

Well...

If this thread has morphed into simply putting up a decent, workable antenna to begin with, perhaps the O.P., Gary (W3LFR), should keep it simple (K.I.S.S.) and install an EFHW-8010-2K+ wire antenna and string it up as an angled "V" with each end anchored to an opposite eave of his 2-story home and the apex anchored down the slope at the back (as show on Google Maps).  It will provide coverage of 10-80M, including WARC, with no structural mods to his home, no radials, no separate counterpoise and "poof", he's on the air.

https://myantennas.com/wp/product/efhw-8010-2k-plus/

or

https://myantennas.com/wp/product/efhw-4010-2k-plus/

with the following before "shack: entry:

https://myantennas.com/wp/product/cmc-130-3k/

It's resonant - no heavy duty tuner needed.  They're as common as cobwebs (as in SPIDER webs) in the PV hills/valleys out here.  The terrain of the area he lives in (San Diego) is very similar and not too far from PV - so maybe just use the simplest solution that's already been shown to work for that case.

It's NOT a Yagi on a 75 foot tower - but works decently and covers a lot of bands. I use one to fill in bands and back up my Mosley TA-33-MW.

QRZ doesn't show much activity for Gary, so perhaps this is a wise, low cost, low risk way to start.  The "Contest Station" and major construction project can come later, if needed/desired.

It offers the opportunity to operate for a while and decide which BETTER directional antenna is worth putting up.

Hexbeams (pretty much a 2-element beam) and multi-band rotatable dipoles are pretty light and a number of club members have installed then on simple masts with light rotators from 10 to 15 feet long, bolted to the side of their homes using bracket arrangements.  Starting out on the 2nd story helps.

Since we're in a pretty darn good solar up cycle, the results WILL be good without the need to squeeze out the last possible dB of gain or worrying too much about radiation angle or losses.

Just a thought.

Brian - K6BRN
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KL7CW

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Re: Short tower on a clay tile roof
« Reply #21 on: March 10, 2023, 09:18:06 AM »

K6BRN makes some good points to think about. Also the idea of strapping a mast to the side of your house seems like it might be reasonable when you think about it.  HOWEVER really think about how you are going to raise and lower the antenna.  Due to the size of the HEX you probably cannot use a push up mast since the HEX will not clear the house.  The HEX plus rotator are not real heavy, BUT that much weight at the end of something like a 25 foot pole will not be a trivial design issue.  Probably if engineered it MIGHT be possible to do, but could be expensive.  IF you could walk on the tile roof you could probably set the antenna on top of the mast, and it might be possible to place the rotator further down the mast.  Personally, I would not want to risk walking on a tile roof to maintain your antenna.  In my 68 years, I have been part of many ham antenna raising "parties".  Some are not fun, look on U tube for failed mast and tower erections.  If you climb, a short tower can be a good start for many different antennas through the years.  I like BRN's suggestions to keep it simple and consider how big a part of your life ham radio is.  For many years raising kids, poor paying jobs, and other priorities, I had lots of fun with basic equipment and very inexpensive compromise antennas.  Perhaps as much fun as I have now with multiple towers and expensive transceivers.  But I made this move only after I was very secure financially, for me ham radio is a hobby, which takes second place after community and church work, visiting grandkids and relatives in many states and countries. I have been retired 22 years, and have lot's of time for ham radio, but it is not my priority in life, so my investment in ham "stuff" was perhaps not necessary.    Have fun, and stay safe.  Rick
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