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Author Topic: 3Y0J - Perfectly Legal  (Read 2178 times)

EI5DI

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3Y0J - Perfectly Legal
« on: March 08, 2023, 08:48:11 AM »

According to the ARRL DXCC Rules, it is clear that the DXCC program is primarily intended for individual operators and, as such, that DXCC is a personal award, not a station award.

    https://www.arrl.org/dxcc-rules

Here's an example of a recent DXCC Certificate
    https://wb4son.com/wpblog/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/DXCC160m.jpg

It certifies that a named operator, Robert M. Beattie WB4SON, has "submitted evidence ... showing evidence of two-way communications with other amateur stations ..."

The DXCC rules address the requirement for ethical operation -

    "Peer attention has always been a part of awards chasing, of course,
      but in these times with so many awards and so many players it is
      more important than ever to 'play the game' ethically."

    "Exemplary conduct is expected of all amateur radio operators
     participating in the DXCC program."

The DXCC rules do not excuse, or make allowance for, other operators having done the operating for, or on behalf of, the operator to whom the award is made.  In particular, Rule 10 includes "Contacts may be made from other stations provided they are personally made by the licensee. The intent of this rule is to prohibit credit for contacts made for you by another operator from another location."

The 3Y0J log may be inspected here - https://clublog.org/charts/?c=3Y0J

It shows that the log includes one or more "contacts" with each of four members of the 3Y0J team. They are -
    KO8SCA - Adrian Ciuperca
    VE3LYC - Cezar-loan Trifu
    NP4G - Otis Vicens
    N0FW - Pete Meyer

Those contacts with 3Y0J were not, and could not have been "personally made by the licensee" from their home DXCC entities.

The fact that the call signs of 3Y0J team members appear in the team's log is proof of not playing the game ethically, and of less than exemplary conduct.  Some claim this is perfectly legal, as if the word "perfectly" somehow conferred greater legitimacy to an otherwise dubious activity - making it whiter than white.  However, we all know that some "perfectly legal" activities, those not specifically prohibited and deemed not to be illegal by default, may nevertheless be perfectly unethical.

As such, and for as long as their so-called contacts are included in the 3Y0J log, I consider KO8SCA, VE3LYC, NP4G and N0FW to have acted unethically and, in short, to be cheats - with specific reference to any potential DXCC claims, by them, for credit for these log entries.

Further, for as long as 3Y0J team members, collectively, fail to remove those log entries, they must be considered to be enablers of cheating.

It might help the integrity of the DXCC program if, when presented with incontrovertible evidence of rule-breaking or unethical behaviour, the ARRL DXCC Desk and/or the ARRL DX Advisory Committee elected to uphold their own rules.

73,
Paul EI5DI
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K3STX

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Re: 3Y0J - Perfectly Legal
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2023, 09:04:31 AM »

The fact that the call signs of 3Y0J team members appear in the team's log is proof of not playing the game ethically, and of less than exemplary conduct.

Wrong.

DXCC Rules
"10.  All contacts must be made using call signs issued to the same station licensee. Contacts made by an operator other than the licensee must be made from a station owned and usually operated by the licensee, and must be made in accordance with the regulations governing the license grant."

If someone else operates their station for the QSO it counts. If they operate their station remotely it counts.

Paul
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AF5CC

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Re: 3Y0J - Perfectly Legal
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2023, 09:17:29 AM »

If they operate their station remotely it counts.

Paul

That's what I was thinking.  How do we know they weren't operating their home station remotely from Bouvet?

73 John AF5CC
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K4HB

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Re: 3Y0J - Perfectly Legal
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2023, 10:23:38 AM »

I've seen ops on DXpeditions get into their log long before this remote BS was started. My understanding was someone used their home station to call them. So maybe they did, or maybe they just wrote themselves in, who knows? I was just glad they were there, and all I was concerned about was getting my call in their log.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2023, 10:27:40 AM by K4HB »
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K3STX

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Re: 3Y0J - Perfectly Legal
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2023, 10:26:32 AM »

If I went to all the expense and trouble to do this trip I would surely have planned ahead to have someone fire up my rig at home for a scheduled QSO! ;D

Paul
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WO7R

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Re: 3Y0J - Perfectly Legal
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2023, 10:58:55 AM »

These guys pay upwards of 20K each to do things like Bouvet.

Whatever they did, whatever the log says in regards to their personal QSOs, nobody is going to push hard against this stuff.  Except armchair Karens who have nothing better to do than kill it for the rest of us.

I have heard believable rumors at Visalia for years that suggest that, one way or another, if you spend that kind of dough to be one of the operators (not to mention the real safety risks of Bouvet in particular), nobody is going to be so officious as to make serious inquires about the details of how your home call got into the log.  Maybe they had a buddy fire up their rig.  Maybe they had a sked.  Maybe a lot of things.  Who cares?

Cut these guys some slack.  They are subsidizing you.  They deserve to be in the log because they made it possible for the rest of us to be in the log.

It is not in my interest and it is not in your interest to police this.  Leave it lie.

The Karens of DXCC are at it again.  Killjoys.
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KJ4Z

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Re: 3Y0J - Perfectly Legal
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2023, 11:21:19 AM »

I went and checked my ALL.TXT records from that time period.  I didn't participate much in the FT8 pileups (lost cause) but during that time I did hear a station signing as KO8SCA with grid FN30 calling 3Y0J for five frames.  I did not hear him make a QSO but he was calling like everyone else.  Signal strength was similar to other stations calling from the same general area at the same time.
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K0YQ

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Re: 3Y0J - Perfectly Legal
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2023, 11:34:12 AM »

We ask that if you have already worked Bouvet please do not work them on additional modes and bands. This will allow others to get the ATNO they need.
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KD8MJR

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Re: 3Y0J - Perfectly Legal
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2023, 11:35:14 AM »

"10.  All contacts must be made using call signs issued to the same station licensee. Contacts made by an operator other than the licensee must be made from a station owned and usually operated by the licensee, and must be made in accordance with the regulations governing the license grant."

If someone else operates their station for the QSO it counts. If they operate their station remotely it counts.

Paul

I am not so sure that you are interpreting that part correctly.
I do not think that it's saying another operator can just use your call and work some Dx on your rig.  I think it's saying that another operator can use your station and work Dx with his call sign.
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N5MOA

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Re: 3Y0J - Perfectly Legal
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2023, 11:50:07 AM »


In particular, Rule 10 includes "Contacts may be made from other stations provided they are personally made by the licensee. The intent of this rule is to prohibit credit for contacts made for you by another operator from another location."


That means I can go to XYZ's station and use my call sign. XYZ can't use my call sign from his station for my credit.


The fact that the call signs of 3Y0J team members appear in the team's log is proof of not playing the game ethically, and of less than exemplary conduct.

Wrong.

DXCC Rules
"10.  All contacts must be made using call signs issued to the same station licensee. Contacts made by an operator other than the licensee must be made from a station owned and usually operated by the licensee, and must be made in accordance with the regulations governing the license grant."

That means op XYZ can operate my station using my call for my credit


It shows that the log includes one or more "contacts" with each of four members of the 3Y0J team. They are -
    KO8SCA - Adrian Ciuperca
    VE3LYC - Cezar-loan Trifu
    NP4G - Otis Vicens
    N0FW - Pete Meyer

Those contacts with 3Y0J were not, and could not have been "personally made by the licensee" from their home DXCC entities.

Don't have to be "personally made by the licensee", just from their personal station.




As such, and for as long as their so-called contacts are included in the 3Y0J log, I consider KO8SCA, VE3LYC, NP4G and N0FW to have acted unethically and, in short, to be cheats - with specific reference to any potential DXCC claims, by them, for credit for these log entries.

Further, for as long as 3Y0J team members, collectively, fail to remove those log entries, they must be considered to be enablers of cheating.



You can think what you want, you're wrong.

And to quote your thread title, "PERFECTLY LEGAL"
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WO7R

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Re: 3Y0J - Perfectly Legal
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2023, 12:35:30 PM »

Someone else operating your station using your call has been "a thing" for uncounted years.

It has been used in VHF, for instance, so that someone operating portable EME can have someone operate their station at home and get credit.  I know of guys that did that and even tell stories about it.  One could never get WAS on some of the more out-of-the-way bands without this practice.  Just not enough operators.  Yet, WAS does happen.  No officious killjoy interferes because, just maybe, they know the rules better than the Karens do.

This sort of thing has been perfectly legal since. . .forever.
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KD8MJR

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Re: 3Y0J - Perfectly Legal
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2023, 01:37:51 PM »

Without reading it I am sure that Little Lord Fauntleroy has made a post stating that he knows the right answer and everyone else is wrong.

Well first let me state my own Opinion.  In my opinion the ARRL should just give the DXpedition members automatic full credit for all bands and modes that they operated on the entity.  It's simple fix and is just a big thank you for all your hard work.


Okay lets get to reality as it stands.

I called the ARRL DXCC section on this Topic just a few minutes ago to get clarification.
Would it surprise you that they were a bit confused and both people I spoke to had to read it several times and confer on what it all meant.

Sections 10 and 11 are critical as section 10 actually makes conflicting statements.

They are actually having me talk to the Head person to get a final ruling but this is how they interpreted it.

NO you cannot go to another Operators Ham shack and use their call sign to make a call.  You could be in violation of the limits of your own License level, eg your a General and your Transmitting on a Freq of an Extra because the Persons call sign allows that.   It also would allow State hopping to complete WAS.  Just call your friend in California and have him work some stations on the West Coast for you using your call sign.  Until the head guy at the ARRL gets back they say that in their opinion of interpreting the rules it's just not permitted for DXCC as they said it is also reinforced in section 11.

As for using Remotes while on a DXpedition.  They pointed out Section 11.

 It is never OK to remotely use a station outside of the 'home DXCC entity' to add to the home-entity DXCC totals -- just as it is never OK for you to ask someone else at another station in another place to make QSOs for you.

That pretty much cover using a friend to make the call for you and using a remote.

I don't want to make this post Fauntleroy sized so I suggest that everyone read Section 10 and 11 again.
All of the posts on here only share a section of each and are not complete.

73s
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N5MOA

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Re: 3Y0J - Perfectly Legal
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2023, 01:54:39 PM »








Sections 10 and 11 are critical as section 10 actually makes conflicting statements.

NO you cannot go to another Operators Ham shack and use their call sign to make a call.  You could be in violation of the limits of your own License level, eg your a General and your Transmitting on a Freq of an Extra because the Persons call sign allows that.   It also would allow State hopping to complete WAS.  Just call your friend in California and have him work some stations on the West Coast for you using your call sign.  Until the head guy at the ARRL gets back they say that in their opinion of interpreting the rules it's just not permitted for DXCC as they said it is also reinforced in section 11.

Yes you can. A tech can operate my station using my call, he just has to stay on the tech portion. Same for a general.
Extra can transmit the same as me.

Your California friend example is correct, he can't work DX using your call from HIS station. He CAN drive to your house and work them for you from your station. He could also remote into your station and do the same thing.


As for using Remotes while on a DXpedition.  They pointed out Section 11.

 It is never OK to remotely use a station outside of the 'home DXCC entity' to add to the home-entity DXCC totals -- just as it is never OK for you to ask someone else at another station in another place to make QSOs for you.

That pretty much cover using a friend to make the call for you and using a remote.


I can't use a remote in Japan to work DX for my benefit. That would be outside my "home DXCC entity".

I can use a remote in the US, while I'm in Japan, to work DX that counts. That would not be outside my "home DXCC entity".

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KJ4Z

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Re: 3Y0J - Perfectly Legal
« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2023, 02:00:23 PM »



Quote
Well first let me state my own Opinion.  In my opinion the ARRL should just give the DXpedition members automatic full credit for all bands and modes that they operated on the entity.  It's simple fix and is just a big thank you for all your hard work.

Interesting proposal.  I'm actually not sure that I agree -- no RF was exchanged -- but I would also not object.

Quote
As for using Remotes while on a DXpedition.  They pointed out Section 11.

 It is never OK to remotely use a station outside of the 'home DXCC entity' to add to the home-entity DXCC totals -- just as it is never OK for you to ask someone else at another station in another place to make QSOs for you.

it is never OK to remotely use a station
outside of the 'home DXCC entity'  = the DXpedition operator's customary home DXCC, e.g. USA, LA
to add to the home-entity DXCC totals  = to add to the DXpedition operator's home totals
just as it is never OK for you to ask someone else = your friend
at another station = your friend's station
in another place = another location for the purposes of the award, in this case another DXCC entity

Your friend making QSOs from your station falls so far outside the scope of this assessment that I'm confused how they are confused.  The wording is crystal clear and the team was not in violation of this rule.  This means no using a remote in Europe to work the DX with your US call, no having your friend call from his station with your call, etc.

Finally, as others have observed, this practice has been traditional for a long, long time.  I'm not going to drag anyone else into this discussion but go back and look at past DXpedition logs if you care to.  Some guys have made dozens of QSOs with their own DXpedition, and good for them!  ARRL has known of this practice forever.  Why would it only become a problem now?
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K4HB

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Re: 3Y0J - Perfectly Legal
« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2023, 02:21:27 PM »

I believe we're starting to mix DXCC rules with FCC rules as they pertain to Amateur Radio. ARRL is a radio club, and they only make rules for their award programs. The part about operating from another person's station and using that person's call would first fall under FCC rules. If it's legal to do that under FCC rules, then DXCC can determine if their rules will allow it for their awards.

As for remotes, and I've stated before I consider that a joke, but the rules allow operating from anywhere. What matters is where the signals originate from. In other words, it's legal to be anywhere in the world and operate your station in the US using your US call. You can use your US call and remote from anywhere in the US. But you can't use your US call and hookup to a station in Europe and transmit/receive from there.

I gotta feeling this thread is gonna drag on and on. But that's OK, that's what we are here for.
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