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Author Topic: 3Y0J - Perfectly Legal  (Read 2173 times)

W9IQ

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Re: 3Y0J - Perfectly Legal
« Reply #30 on: March 09, 2023, 12:29:33 PM »

Read it again...

I agree but rule 11 clearly allows compliance with rule 10 as long as the station in question is being legally operated, per the local regulations, locally or remotely, within the home DXCC entity, by another ham.

Perhaps you are trying to make a totally different point?

- Glenn W9IQ
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- Glenn W9IQ

God runs electromagnetics on Monday, Wednesday and Friday by the wave theory and the devil runs it on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday by the Quantum theory.

KJ4Z

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Re: 3Y0J - Perfectly Legal
« Reply #31 on: March 09, 2023, 12:41:00 PM »

I just find it amusing that you guys love to Quote the Rules but when it does not suit your opinion you shoot the messenger and if that does not work you just dismiss it and say oh yeah well that's been happening forever so it's fine?

I'm sorry that you feel attacked but re-reading this thread, I don't see where anyone has "shot" you.
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KD8MJR

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Re: 3Y0J - Perfectly Legal
« Reply #32 on: March 09, 2023, 01:20:47 PM »


" It is never OK to remotely use a station outside of the 'home DXCC entity' to add to the home-entity DXCC totals -- just as it is never OK for you to ask someone else at another station in another place to make QSOs for you."



Yes, and what the above means is that if a remote station is located for example in Norway, an operator of that remote station can add to his Norway DXCC totals. (He would not be able to add to his for example USA DXCC totals because the remote station is located in Norway.

Marvin VE3VEE

No what it means is that another operator must not be using your Call Sign to make contacts PERIOD.
Instead of arguing with me call the ARRL and they will confirm that.
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W9IQ

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Re: 3Y0J - Perfectly Legal
« Reply #33 on: March 09, 2023, 01:38:56 PM »

No what it means is that another operator must not be using your Call Sign to make contacts PERIOD.

Rule 10 contradicts that conclusion:

Quote from: DCXX Rule 10
Contacts made by an operator other than the licensee must be made from a station owned and usually operated by the licensee, and must be made in accordance with the regulations governing the license grant.

What otherwise is the purpose of rule 10?

- Glenn W9IQ
« Last Edit: March 09, 2023, 01:51:05 PM by W9IQ »
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- Glenn W9IQ

God runs electromagnetics on Monday, Wednesday and Friday by the wave theory and the devil runs it on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday by the Quantum theory.

KD8MJR

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Re: 3Y0J - Perfectly Legal
« Reply #34 on: March 09, 2023, 02:45:13 PM »

No what it means is that another operator must not be using your Call Sign to make contacts PERIOD.

Rule 10 contradicts that conclusion:

Quote from: DCXX Rule 10
Contacts made by an operator other than the licensee must be made from a station owned and usually operated by the licensee, and must be made in accordance with the regulations governing the license grant.

What otherwise is the purpose of rule 10?

- Glenn W9IQ
Read my old post a page back to see the contradiction in Rule 10.
The ARRL Guy From the DXCC desk told me that Rule 10 contradicts itself so Rule 11 is used to clarify and make it perfectly clear that you cannot use another operators call sign to make contacts.
Once again call the ARRL and ask for yourself.

What part of this  does not make common sense to you?
If we could all just legally call up our foreign friends on WhatsApp and ask them to work a hard DX for us what use would the DXCC be?
« Last Edit: March 09, 2023, 03:06:07 PM by KD8MJR »
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N4UFO

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Re: 3Y0J - Perfectly Legal
« Reply #35 on: March 09, 2023, 03:12:26 PM »

Quote
10.  All contacts must be made using call signs issued to the same station licensee. Contacts made by an operator other than the licensee must be made from a station owned and usually operated by the licensee, and must be made in accordance with the regulations governing the license grant. Contacts may be made from other stations provided they are personally made by the licensee. The intent of this rule is to prohibit credit for contacts made for you by another operator from another location. You may combine confirmations from several call signs held for credit to one DXCC award, as long as the provisions of Rule 9 are met. Contacts made from club stations using a club call sign may not be used for credit to an individual's DXCC.

Station licensee. If I am N4UFO, the station at my HOME is also N4UFO. It says, it is okay if another ham comes to MY house and operates AS N4UFO using MY equipment and in accordance with MY license.

Then it says... if 'I' go to another station, other than my home station and make contacts myself, that is also okay.

Next it says, I can use my AC5DK contacts (old call) along with my N4UFO contacts towards my DXCC.

Lastly, I cannot use my contacts from club station W5YM when I signed AS W5YM. They would only count if I signed as AC5DK/N4UFO.
 

Quote
11.  Issues concerning remotely controlled operating and DXCC are best dealt with by each individual carefully considering the ethical limits that he/she will accept for his/her DXCC and other operating awards.  As the premier operating award in Amateur Radio, DXCC draws intense scrutiny from its participants.  As DX chasers climb up the Standings there will be increased attention given to these achievements and the owner of these achievements needs to be comfortable standing behind his/her award and numbers.  Peer attention has always been a part of awards chasing, of course, but in these times with so many awards and so many players it is more important than ever to 'play the game' ethically.

Technological advances, while welcome, also add to the difficulty in defining rules for DXCC, but the intent of the rules is what is important.  It is never OK to remotely use a station outside of the 'home DXCC entity' to add to the home-entity DXCC totals -- just as it is never OK for you to ask someone else at another station in another place to make QSOs for you.  Remotely controlled stations must be properly licensed if they are to count for DXCC.  It will continue to be up to the operator to decide what types of legal remote control operating he/she will use (if any) to contribute to an operating award.

This latter paragraph says, as a US Licensee, I cannot use a remote station outside the USA for credit... nor can I ask another ham to use HIS STATION or ANY STATION other than mine and MY CALLSIGN to make a DX contact for me. Furthermore, any station that I use as a remote station belonging to me must abide by all rules & regs.

To address your particular objection: "it is never OK for you to ask someone else at another station in another place to make QSOs for you" - BUT it is okay to ask someone else at YOUR STATION to make QSOs for you.


NOWHERE DOES IT SAY... that I cannot ask my ham buddy to go over to my house and work me FROM MY HOUSE with MY CALLSIGN while I am operating on a DXpedition. (It says I can't ask him to work me with my callsign from HIS house with HIS station or any other station besides mine for me to get credit.)


This has been going on for years with HF DXpeditions and I personally know that it has been legitimately used by VUCC rovers to get grid credit for their home station. That said, 'I' have never asked people to operate my station (and did not) when I went to very rare grids in the Nevada desert in 2016. I waited until someone else went a few years later to earn my Gridmaster Award (satellite equivalent of Fred Fish on 6m). But that was my choice. -- Nothing in the rules says that I could not do that.

If you understood the person at the ARRL DXCC desk to say that someone on a DXpedition cannot have a buddy go operate his home station for DXCC credit, either you did not understand them correctly or they are mistaken. If I knew how to tell you to get in direct touch with him, I'd tell you to ask K5UR.  https://www.arrl.org/president Because I have heard him explain things at many a hamfest/convention and he could explain it to you now.

To quote Forrest Gump, "That's all I have to say about that."
« Last Edit: March 09, 2023, 03:30:59 PM by N4UFO »
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KD8MJR

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Re: 3Y0J - Perfectly Legal
« Reply #36 on: March 09, 2023, 03:18:33 PM »

Moving on since he does not want to call the ARRL but instead wants to argue with me.

I noticed that 3Y0J logs are gone from Clublog.  Is this normal for logs to be taken down?
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N0UN

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Re: 3Y0J - Perfectly Legal
« Reply #37 on: March 09, 2023, 03:26:18 PM »

I noticed that 3Y0J logs are gone from Clublog.  Is this normal for logs to be taken down?

I was surprised they uploaded at all to Club Log being they utilize Charles and his Bespoke OQRS System.

NØUN
« Last Edit: March 09, 2023, 03:31:47 PM by N0UN »
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N4UFO

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Re: 3Y0J - Perfectly Legal
« Reply #38 on: March 09, 2023, 03:36:41 PM »

Moving on since he does not want to call the ARRL but instead wants to argue with me.

1. That was my first post, I am not the one you think is 'arguing with you'.

2. I don't need to call the ARRL DXCC desk and bother them because they are busy and I know better.

3. Clearly you are stuck in your errant understanding, and did not read my explanation.

      So hopefully I clarified things for anyone else that was not sure. Trust me, it's okay... and has been.

      Good luck & 73, Kevin N4UFO
« Last Edit: March 09, 2023, 03:39:58 PM by N4UFO »
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KD8MJR

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Re: 3Y0J - Perfectly Legal
« Reply #39 on: March 09, 2023, 03:44:28 PM »

I noticed that 3Y0J logs are gone from Clublog.  Is this normal for logs to be taken down?

I was surprised they uploaded at all to Club Log being they utilize Charles and his Bespoke OQRS System.

NØUN

Ya that is true, but given all of the attacks on them I would think the last thing they would want to do is remove the Logs and create more speculation. 
M0OXO system lacks info on the total amount of contacts and all the Band data etc.   It's just Black box software that takes your call sign and generates specific info on you for a QSl card.
I can see how that might create a new round of accusations.
If they really have removed the Logs from Clublog on just Whim then IMO it's really a bad idea.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2023, 03:56:26 PM by KD8MJR »
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N4UFO

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Re: 3Y0J - Perfectly Legal
« Reply #40 on: March 09, 2023, 04:29:36 PM »

10.  All contacts must be made using call signs issued to the same station licensee.

To clarify... if you look at your FCC license you will see the sections, "Operator Privileges" and "Station Privileges". What does that mean? It means you have two licenses in one. You have a license to operate and a license for your physical station. If you look at a club license, it will have no operator privilege, as it is only a station license.

Why does this matter? Well, these days it kinda doesn't. But at one time (70s & before) each person with a station was required to keep a 'station log'. What we would refer to today as a 'logbook'. If you called CQ and no one answered, that had to be logged in the station logbook that you transmitted a CQ at such a time on such a frequency, etc. And if someone came over to your house and operated your station, they HAD to use YOUR callsign because they were operating YOUR station. Now, if you were a General Class and they were Extra class... AND they operated in the Extra class portion of the band, they were REQUIRED to use BOTH CALLSIGNS. "This is N4UFO operating N4ICY," or  "de N4UFO/N4ICY AR". And if my memory is correct, the 'visiting operator' had to sign your logbook as well.

BUT, the FCC eventually laxed a WHOLE bunch of rules & regulations (in stages). First, they said you didn't have to log mobile transmissions/contacts... then I think they said you only had to log completed contacts, etc. Anyway, my point is, your license covers your home station at the address listed on your license AND grants privileges to you as an operator to operate on certain frequencies. They are NOT one in the same... despite being on the same piece of paper.

Why does this matter? Because the DXCC rules follow along with the FCC rules. Your award covers both YOU and YOUR STATION. FCC rule wise, if you appoint someone to be a 'control operator' (FCC defined term) at your station, they can then legally operate YOUR station with YOUR station license (callsign) within THEIR 'Operator Privileges'. (If a general and you are an extra, they have to stay in the general bands.) So by the same token... if my wife, N4ICY - general class, gets on my station, uses my license N4UFO and contacts me on Zippetydoodah Island as ZP1DOO, as long as she stays within her operator privileges (I have to come up to the General portion to work her) then 'station N4UFO' gets credit for working ZP1DOO for DXCC.

Some of these rules are still relevant today with regards to Repeater license, control operators, third party traffic, etc. But to the average ham, you have a callsign, you get on whenever and you don't keep track of contacts, etc. If was very different around the time I was first licensed. (1977 as WD5CCV)  So consider yourself lucky, but understand that DXCC has been around since these rules were in effect and this is where the verbage and ideas come from.

Hope that helps answer the questions. I will leave it be now.  GL & 73... dit dit
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K5GS

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Re: 3Y0J - Perfectly Legal
« Reply #41 on: March 09, 2023, 06:03:22 PM »

Ya that is true, but given all of the attacks on them I would think the last thing they would want to do is remove the Logs and create more speculation.
M0OXO system lacks info on the total amount of contacts and all the Band data etc.   It's just Black box software that takes your call sign and generates specific info on you for a QSl card.
I can see how that might create a new round of accusations.
If they really have removed the Logs from Clublog on just Whim then IMO it's really a bad idea.


I'm surprised to read your comment about the M0OXO software. I was on the development team that wrote that package.

I just went to M0OXO and looked at the 3Y0J statistics.   I'm not familiar with Clublog, so maybe you're saying there's a difference in the type and/or granularity of the data presented?  However, I've used the statistics function of the software for other projects and it seemed to answer the questions one would ask.

I'm not involved with the 3Y0J project in any way. But I do know why they would move the log to M0OXO for OQRS confirmation purposes. Maybe you should ask M0OXO before speculating about such things. 

Please enlighten me, exactly what statistics are you not getting, maybe the development team missed something you deem important?

Cheers,
GS K5GS
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WO7R

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Re: 3Y0J - Perfectly Legal
« Reply #42 on: March 09, 2023, 06:48:37 PM »

Well, FWIW, the 3Y0J logs seem to be gone from Clublog (probably appropriate since it won't be used for OQRS) but the expedition statistics are still there:

https://clublog.org/charts/?c=3Y0J#r

Anybody still looking for the Clublog version of the log needs to stop.  There's not a lot of point in it at this stage even if they left it there.


edit:  Just double-checked.  The Clublog data seems slightly down level, but are within a per cent or two of what is currently showing on the (presumably more definitive and cleaned up) M0OXO site.  Still, it is there and if you're comfortable with the layout, you won't be badly mislead by what is there.  Pretty close.  (18845 total Qs on Clublog versus 18623 on M0OXO right now).
« Last Edit: March 09, 2023, 06:53:42 PM by WO7R »
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N0UN

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Re: 3Y0J - Perfectly Legal
« Reply #43 on: March 09, 2023, 07:00:09 PM »

Bespoke has a good stats package. I've always liked it. Just ran my call through 3Y0J and clicked "Show Statistics".

Judging by the clueless folks in the pileups, I suspect the same folks were waiting for Club Log OQRS to open up (good luck with that - it was never going to).  Some are easily confused.

NØUN


« Last Edit: March 09, 2023, 07:03:18 PM by N0UN »
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WA2VUY

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Re: 3Y0J - Perfectly Legal
« Reply #44 on: March 09, 2023, 08:07:34 PM »

I don't know if it's important but in Clublog I could see how many 2s in USA worked 3y, for example.
Ya that is true, but given all of the attacks on them I would think the last thing they would want to do is remove the Logs and create more speculation.
M0OXO system lacks info on the total amount of contacts and all the Band data etc.   It's just Black box software that takes your call sign and generates specific info on you for a QSl card.
I can see how that might create a new round of accusations.
If they really have removed the Logs from Clublog on just Whim then IMO it's really a bad idea.


I'm surprised to read your comment about the M0OXO software. I was on the development team that wrote that package.

I just went to M0OXO and looked at the 3Y0J statistics.   I'm not familiar with Clublog, so maybe you're saying there's a difference in the type and/or granularity of the data presented?  However, I've used the statistics function of the software for other projects and it seemed to answer the questions one would ask.

I'm not involved with the 3Y0J project in any way. But I do know why they would move the log to M0OXO for OQRS confirmation purposes. Maybe you should ask M0OXO before speculating about such things. 

Please enlighten me, exactly what statistics are you not getting, maybe the development team missed something you deem important?

Cheers,
GS K5GS
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