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Author Topic: 3Y0J - Perfectly Legal  (Read 2176 times)

N1UR

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Re: 3Y0J - Perfectly Legal
« Reply #75 on: March 14, 2023, 04:53:29 AM »

Seems very "high and mighty" in my opinion to say that the well off guys that do a DXpedition should get paid whatever they ask for an LOTW confirmation but a potentially more struggling local should provide LOTW just because he lives there.  Really?

Screw the locals...my money goes to the boys in the yacht....

Can't agree with this personally.  If you don't want to pay for a LOTW conformation just don't pay it.  But to start segregating who is worthy is a very slippery downward slope.

Ed  N1UR
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K1VSK

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Re: 3Y0J - Perfectly Legal
« Reply #76 on: March 14, 2023, 08:25:09 AM »

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enlighten us with what you think a LOTW button push is worth.

Whatever any individual is willing to pay.  Same as cards.  There's no difference.

There's plenty of data out there that shows that comparatively few of us care about cards as cards.  LOTW's success (despite the signup procedure) demonstrates that. 

Moreover, if cards "as such" are what one cares about, work JAs by the hour and wait for the "buro" to fill up your envelope with pretty cards.  JAs have a lot of very interesting cards and every single one will QSL you it seems.  Ditto DLs, UAs, etc.  There are a handful of people who really do like cards.  Good on them.  But that's not what this marketplace is really about because plenty of attractive cards can be obtained for pretty cheap. 

So, the value is in the confirmation, not the cardboard.  If one pays 3 green stamps and at least a dollar to mail it out, then paying 3.50 US for an LOTW instead is a win.
I understand the reason you continue to argue the cost aspect of it while ignoring the principle aspect, however, doing so only serves to confirm what I previously wrote.

It’s hard to defend the indefensible but keep trying if you want.
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KD6KVL

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Re: 3Y0J - Perfectly Legal
« Reply #77 on: March 14, 2023, 08:33:19 AM »

This is a hobby.  A guy at home is a hobbyist.  It costs him nothing to LOTW.  A dxpeditioner lays out a lot of money to make the qso happen and there is no benefit even with oqrs contributions.  A guy at home charging $5 per upload is subsidizing his income.  A dxpedition is hoping to break even.
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Frank KG6N

WO7R

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Re: 3Y0J - Perfectly Legal
« Reply #78 on: March 14, 2023, 08:34:18 AM »

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I understand the reason you continue to argue the cost aspect of it while ignoring the principle aspect, however, doing so only serves to confirm what I previously wrote.

It’s hard to defend the indefensible but keep trying if you want.

What 'principle' is it to start with?  You haven't stated it.  Like all guys who have this long list of "unwritten rules" you presume they are self-evident.  Nope.

If you have something that isn't just gussied up self-interest, proclaim it.  Don't just assume "we all know".  Because I see no virtue here of any kind.  Just straight up self-interest.

If it is some sort of dubious "ham spirit", I've seen that argument before.  Mostly from Europeans. They are even cheaper, on average, than North Americans.  It is inevitably a "self interested" argument.  They think they are entitled to a "free" confirmation.  Well, "entitlement" is not a principle. It's just lobbying for a lower price.

It is, at best, a vague echo of a 19th century aristocratic ethos of amateurism that has long since departed from places like the Olympics where it was most prevalent.  And from where it was long honored in the breach anyhow.  It is a "virtue" that people who are already rich proclaim to others, in this case to pick their pocket.
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WO7R

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Re: 3Y0J - Perfectly Legal
« Reply #79 on: March 14, 2023, 08:52:19 AM »

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This is a hobby.  A guy at home is a hobbyist.  It costs him nothing to LOTW.  A dxpeditioner lays out a lot of money to make the qso happen and there is no benefit even with oqrs contributions.  A guy at home charging $5 per upload is subsidizing his income.  A dxpedition is hoping to break even.

So says you.  Do you not see the self-interest dripping off of this argument?  What are you, a socialist?  It is the socialist that proclaims to know what the proper price of things are.

A DXpedition, whether it is a trip to Aruba or a trip to Bouvet isn't going to break even.  It isn't going to come close.  But, we most of us, with our little three dollars in an envelope, cover, at best, 1/3 of the expedition's costs.  We all, finally, seem to agree on this.  That's progress of a sort.

So, we are being subsidized by the expeditioner.  But, we are also being subsidized by the resident DX who doesn't even have to be on the air to start with.  And who probably pays double what you do for his or her station (excise taxes on islands are often quite high).  And, certainly, double what you do for food and housing materials.  Ever visited one of these places?  All the ones I have been to are not cheap.  They import a lot and the imports cost.

But, even if they are rich, on what basis should they work "for free" to do 10,000 QSOs with Ws, JAs, and DLs that they cannot possibly need for any purpose and with whom they cannot have meaningful conversations (lest the waiting mob start yammering to work them)?   

At some point, 10,000 meaningless QSOs a year starts to look like an actual job.  At least it might to some of them.  There is a real rush in being on the DX end of a pileup.  But it is not necessarily a rush one wants 24 hours a day 365 days a year.

They are not going to get rich off of this.  We are too cheap.  Moreover, not every QSO the resident DX makes turns into a card or LOTW request to start with.  So, their "margin" is not what you think it is.

If they charge too much for your taste don't pay.  But I don't see the virtue in it.  Just ordinary capitalism.

Some give away their confirmations (whether DXpeditioners or residents).  I thank them.  They are doing me a favor.  It's not a right that I can demand.  And, truth be told, there are enough of them to put downward pressure on what is, no matter how we bleat otherwise, a marketplace.  That's the best we can hope for.

In any case, they control the access because of rules we made up.  Their experience of radio is different from ours.  Who are we to tell them they have to work all of us, for nothing, if they don't even care to apply for DXCC awards to start with, which can be true of them?

I know a DX station a little.  He has unreliable power.  He actually breathes in diesel fumes as a price of being on the air.  I only found out because a friend of mine did.  Getting him as much as a simple fan to dissipate said fumes is a big deal in that part of the world which has terrible infrastructure.  It's not just money -- they live in a world where there is no Amazon.  You sure he's entitled to nothing? 

Keep on cheaping out and then wonder why we some of these places remain rare.
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WO7R

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Re: 3Y0J - Perfectly Legal
« Reply #80 on: March 14, 2023, 09:00:14 AM »

For further perspective on this, see if you can dredge up a presentation on Signal Point, usually on the air as PJ2T.

For those that don't know, this is a venerable contest station in Curacao.  It has been active for years and is run by a consortium of interested contesters.  They also rent the place out.

I've seen their presentation.  They are a very good surrogate for a resident DX station.  They have money enough to travel there betimes to work on the station.  They are "rich", at least as we are discussing things here.

The thing is, the salt air is corrosive to everything.  There is annual maintenance at a level that you and I would not believe without seeing the presentation.  They are not 'breaking even' even though they have the same kind of setup any resident DX would have.

Read here:  http://www.pj2t.org/ccc/signal.point.rental.information.htm    for a very succinct explanation of their costs, including water which is very expensive.  Like a lot of Caribbean Islands, they desalinate and that is not cheap.  There's more, much more.

It is simply not necessarily the case that all resident DX are "making a fortune" whatever they do or don't charge for confirmations.
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KD6KVL

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Re: 3Y0J - Perfectly Legal
« Reply #81 on: March 14, 2023, 09:01:45 AM »

Jesus, did you really call me a sociaist?  You don't have to make 10,000 qso's as an island operator.  You don't set up your station to gain revenue from it.  They live there not just to operate radio.
First of all, your insulating socialist accusation is out of line and ignorant.
I pay for oqrs to any entity i want an lotw or card for and I'm not cheap, I donate.
Why are you so angry on here all the time?  So many assumptions you make about a guy posting on the internet. 
VK9DX was the example I was thinking of.  $5 to upload to lotw.  Say he makes 1500 qso's a month and half donate to oqrs.  That would mean he makes $3750 a month of his hobby.  We are nt supposed to be charging for the services.  The oqrs costs were intended to cover expenses of MAILING cards where IRC's were not accepted and dollars were hard to get through crooked postal system.  I've been qsl'ing for over 30 years and have spent a fortune getting cards.  You assumption of me being a socialist is dead wrong and you attitude is obnoxcious.
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Frank KG6N

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Re: 3Y0J - Perfectly Legal
« Reply #82 on: March 14, 2023, 09:17:15 AM »

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First of all, your insulating socialist accusation is out of line and ignorant

Is it?  Do you know what a socialist is?  It is, among other things, someone who sets prices by something other than the free market. 

There's nothing magic about declaring something a "hobby" that repeals capitalism from a situation.  We don't expect rig manufacturers to work for free.  Well, that's an ordinary capitalist transaction.  We all recognize that.  But somehow, when we ask some distant station we don't know with costs we don't know and interests we don't know to work for free, that 's somehow virtuous?

If you tell someone else that they "must" charge so and so or work for free, that is the dictionary definition of socialism.


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We are nt supposed to be charging for the services.

Who is this "we" you are talking about?  If you don't like what he does, don't pay.

But stop pretending he is obligated to play radio by rules you are trying to impose on him.  Maybe he doesn't give a damn about DXCC.  Maybe he got all the awards he wanted 20 years ago and no longer cares.  Maybe he has costs you have no visibility to.  Maybe he makes 50,000 a year off of what to you and I is a hobby.  But maybe that 50,000 keeps him on that rock.

What I get "angry" about is the perpetual sloppy thinking that passes for thought around here.  We stateside hams, particularly, think we know the score elsewhere.  Well, for the most part, we don't. 

The "arrogance" here is that we think we can impose our values, particularly self interested ones one someone else.

Just don't work him or at least don't QSL.  And leave the rest of it off.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2023, 09:20:50 AM by WO7R »
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KD6KVL

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Re: 3Y0J - Perfectly Legal
« Reply #83 on: March 14, 2023, 09:35:21 AM »

You're reading way too far into what you think someone is thinking here.  Then you draw conclusions and spew them out like diarrhea on the forums.
Ham radio is a hobby.  Its not meant to cover them cost of subsidizing a station to exist, its to offset the cost of confirming a voluntary contact on the radio.
I see you are too absorbed in looking for subtle insinuations, so I'll agree to disagree with you here.  Keep up the good work.
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Frank KG6N

WO7R

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Re: 3Y0J - Perfectly Legal
« Reply #84 on: March 14, 2023, 11:03:00 AM »

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Ham radio is a hobby.  Its not meant to cover them cost of subsidizing a station to exist, its to offset the cost of confirming a voluntary contact on the radio.

Who says?  It may be so in the US, but it's a big world and it doesn't play by our rules.

Do you have the faintest idea about what ham regulations look like in other countries? 

I've been to a few.  There is no Part 97 or anything like it in the places I have been.  Not even close.

In one rent-a-shack I went to, the owner gave me the entire "rule book".  It fit on 2/3 of an 8 and a half by 11 sheet of paper.  It was 100 per cent about frequency allocations and power levels for the ham bands.  There wasn't even a distinction between license classes in what I received.  I could transmit on SSB at 7.040 MHz if I felt like it.  One hundred percent legal.  In fact, I did so.  To be sure, European, American, and Japanese band plans and allocations were known and affected actual choices.  But I didn't have to follow any US rules.  I could do any mode on any allowed frequency.

There was not a single word about "pecuniary interest".  There wasn't even anything about two way communication.  Now, in some countries, some legal things are done by custom and not written down.  But as a matter of legal formality, there was nothing and I wasn't told about any unwritten rules, either.   I wasn't referred to some national ham organization (whatever the ARRL equivalent was) for anything, including some sort of spirit of amateurism.  They didn't even point to the DX Code of Conduct.

Just "here's the bands and power levels in our country, have at it."  That was all I got.  Certainly, there is nothing at all implied or suggested as to what my QSL practices might be, since QSLing had nothing to do with what RF poured out of my station.  It was pretty clear that what came out of my radio was all the authorities were interested in.  It was also clear that my host didn't care about my QSLing practices, either.  So, there wasn't any obvious, local "this is how we behave" either.  It was all pretty informal, by our standards.

And, again, "hobby" is not a magic incantation that changes the economics.

If you want to argue "station X is 'gouging' and I won't pay," I'm with you 100 per cent.  That's ordinary capitalism.  But if you want to argue that a "hobby" means someone else in another country must follow a "break even" cost model, then I'm sorry, hobby or not, that is the very impulse behind socialism.

And that's they way it is being argued.

You don't know what it costs to put up or maintain a station in some of these places.  If they are rare, it means a thousand things you take for granted are intermittent and more expensive.  It is frankly arrogant to presume there is a big markup and even more to presume that it is any of our business if there is one.

Our job is to make the QSO and decide if we want to pay for the confirmation.  Full stop.

If you really want to be "principled" about it, you should lobby for a ham universe where stations participate by the "buro" plus LOTW, and not grudgingly, or we blacklist them and refuse to work them.  See how far that gets you.  Anything else is just lobbying for a cheaper price.

Until you admit to a regime of that kind (which is still a form of socialism), then your "principles" are honored in the breach anyhow.

"I will pay depending on what I think someone else's costs are" is a valid choice. But, it is a socialist one in every essential.  The capitalist choice is to pay based on the value I receive.
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KD6KVL

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Re: 3Y0J - Perfectly Legal
« Reply #85 on: March 14, 2023, 11:29:52 AM »

"Who says?  It may be so in the US, but it's a big world and it doesn't play by our rules."
The commercial licensing authorities in many countries would have an opinion on this, not that I care of think its my place to say, but money for radio is a comercial venture.  Amateur radio is just that, not for profit. 

To be clear, I agree that hams can charge whatever they want to LOTW or QSL, and I pay for the ones I want.  I'm just saying that its outside the spirit of a hobbyist to supplement their income by running qso's to solicit qsl revenue.

"Our job is to make the QSO and decide if we want to pay for the confirmation.  Full stop."
Agreed

All this aside, come to Visalia, I'll buy you a beer.

Frank KG6N
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Frank KG6N

W2IRT

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Re: 3Y0J - Perfectly Legal
« Reply #86 on: March 14, 2023, 12:34:45 PM »

Charging for an LoTW upload (not a physical card) rubs me the wrong way, however I won't begrudge a few dollars for a new entity on 6m or 160m. Maybe someday in the future a big operation to that entity will happen with free LoTW uploads, but what if I'm not around to work it or my equipment is damaged? For the remaining three ATNOs I need my donation will be substantially higher than a few dollars, if they are ever activated and I can get in the log!
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K1VSK

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Re: 3Y0J - Perfectly Legal
« Reply #87 on: March 14, 2023, 02:19:43 PM »

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I understand the reason you continue to argue the cost aspect of it while ignoring the principle aspect, however, doing so only serves to confirm what I previously wrote.

It’s hard to defend the indefensible but keep trying if you want.

What 'principle' is it to start with?  You haven't stated it.  Like all guys who have this long list of "unwritten rules" you presume they are self-evident.  Nope.
Don’t be obtuse - if you think I haven’t already stated it, what the hell are you arguing about? And what are you disagreeing with?

Obfuscation is always transparent.
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If you have something that isn't just gussied up self-interest, proclaim it.  Don't just assume "we all know".  Because I see no virtue here of any kind.  Just straight up self-????

As the saying goes, “i gave you the explanation but I can’t make you understand”.

The only self-interest here is the guy who extorts money for a LZoTW confirmation. That you seem intent on defending it with dissociated illogical and largely irrelevant arguments is telling.
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KD8MJR

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Re: 3Y0J - Perfectly Legal
« Reply #88 on: March 14, 2023, 05:44:59 PM »

This is the only Hobby I have ever been in where a $15 fee can become so contentious!  A movie ticket is roughly $10. 
If they had made 200K contacts then yeah I might think they were gouging but at the measly 8K+ worth of Hams that they worked it's going to be hard to get $15  out of even half of them.  A lot of the stations that made it don't even need Bouvet for ATNO so I am pretty sure they have no interest in a card.  Then you have the cheap people.  If the card money can be used to refund those 4 poor souls who stayed on the ship during the entire trip then it's worth it.
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K4HB

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Re: 3Y0J - Perfectly Legal
« Reply #89 on: March 14, 2023, 07:33:21 PM »

This is the only Hobby I have ever been in where a $15 fee can become so contentious!  A movie ticket is roughly $10.

I've seen a time it actually cost 10₵ for a movie ticket. Wouldn't go into a movie theater and spend my time now if it was free. Just don't care for the woke Hollyweird crowd.

 
If they had made 200K contacts then yeah I might think they were gouging but at the measly 8K+ worth of Hams that they worked it's going to be hard to get $15  out of even half of them.  A lot of the stations that made it don't even need Bouvet for ATNO so I am pretty sure they have no interest in a card.  Then you have the cheap people.  If the card money can be used to refund those 4 poor souls who stayed on the ship during the entire trip then it's worth it.

What the discussion is mostly about now is not DXpeditions, but those operating from their home and wanting payment for LoTW upload.

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