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Author Topic: End Fed antenna wire length  (Read 711 times)

W5ALJ

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End Fed antenna wire length
« on: March 08, 2023, 12:08:05 PM »

I live in an apartment but have access to a nice stand of woods to install a stealthy End Fed Long Wire antenna. I know end fed antennas require a rather precise wire length to properly operate. My question is exactly how do I calculate how long the wire should actually be? For example, if it calls for an 84 foot length, do I cut the wire exactly 84 feet or do I add some length to allow for strain relief on the 9:1 Unun and for installing the insulator on the far end? I have built many wire antennas over my 56 years of radio but never have had this question answered, and always have "estimated" the lengths of wires. Thanks for any help you can provide.

73, Dennis W5ALJ
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VR2AX

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Re: End Fed antenna wire length
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2023, 12:22:47 PM »

Calculation is often more trouble than its worth. Estimate, the maximum length, then go back from there. The ends can be wound around insulators, as you check what you think needs to be checked.
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W9WQA

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Re: End Fed antenna wire length
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2023, 12:24:21 PM »

hang "a" wire and use a tuner, i cover all bands
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K5LXP

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Re: End Fed antenna wire length
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2023, 12:45:02 PM »

I operate with end fed wires a lot when portable.  To make things easier I use an end fed half wave, or multiband versions of one having an extra component or two inline that facilitates operating it without a tuner.  Yes, you can "force feed" an arbitrary length of wire with a tuner and it will work, but using antennas that are inherently better matched make your life that much easier.  Example, the PAR 40-20-10, or the ARRL 40-20-15-10 operating on multiples of a half wave.

Mark K5LXP
Albuquerque, NM
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AC1DR

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Re: End Fed antenna wire length
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2023, 12:48:48 PM »

A half wave wire antenna fed at the end has an impedance of between 2000 and 4000 ohms depending upon the configuration (ie.  inverted L, inverted V, sloper, etc.), height above ground, your local ground conductivity, and nearness to trees and other structures.  This is why an autotransformer of 49 to 1 (for 2500 ohms) or 64 to 1 (for 3200 ohms) must be used to match a 50 ohm feedline.  The actual length to achieve a particular SWR minimum frequency will vary slightly based upon the variables above.  The best method to achieve the optimal length for a particular band/frequency is too start long and use an Antenna tuner to trim the far end length to park the SWR minimum exactly where to like to operate.  For the 80 meter band start with 130 feet, then trim for perfection.
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N4UFO

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Re: End Fed antenna wire length
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2023, 01:55:11 PM »

IFor example, if it calls for an 84 foot length, do I cut the wire exactly 84 feet or do I add some length to allow for strain relief on the 9:1 Unun and for installing the insulator on the far end?

Sorry, mate, but people don't read any more. Or instead of answering they'd rather only give a differing opinion.  ::)

You asked a simple question. And the answer is 'Yes', allow for strain relief. The attach point on the 9:1 transformer to the end of the loop on the far end insulator should be 84 feet. (being that you asked about 84 feet tells me that you've already read up on non-resonant lengths)  ;)

That said, I tried a 9:1 non-resonant long wire... in two locations. I had a lot of trouble getting a proper counterpoise wire for it, still had to use a tuner (more than a built in rig tuner) and efficiency was not that good. Then I went to a 49:1 160m End Fed Half Wave and I like the EFHW a WHOLE lot better.  :D

As always, your mileage may vary, no warranties expressed or implied and it's always good to experiment yourself and figure out what you like. But the EFHW... just saying.  8)  (look at my QRZ page for pics and details on mine)

73, Kevin N4UFO
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W5ALJ

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Re: End Fed antenna wire length
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2023, 06:35:50 PM »

Thanks to all of you who gave their advice. I certainly learned a lot about long wires. But Kevin gave me the exact answer for the question I was asking about. I think I'll abandon my random wire project and go with the EFHW. Unnecessary problems I don't need and I'm still amazed how much I learn every day about Ham Radio!
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WB6BYU

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Re: End Fed antenna wire length
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2023, 07:12:14 PM »

Quote from: W5ALJ

... if it calls for an 84 foot length, do I cut the wire exactly 84 feet or do I add some length to allow for strain relief on the 9:1 Unun and for installing the insulator on the far end?...



First of all, the length isn't all that critical in this case.

Basically, you want a non-resonant length.  There are
lots of tables that use the standard formulas to calculate
such lengths, and the values they publish are often the
center of a range of lengths that will work.

Of course, one issue is that the "standard formulas"
aren't necessarily correct  - they are just estimates. 
The actual resonant lengths depend on the wire diameter
and the insulation type and thickness, as well as whether
the wire is straight or bent.  Without running some tests
on the specific type of wire you are using, you probably
can't calculate any of the resonant lengths exactly.

Besides, the UNUNs often described for using with such
antennas aren't perfect transformers anyway, so the
resulting impedance won't be what you would predict.
The best thing you can do is to put up the antenna,
measure the feedpoint impedance on each band, and
then calculate the impedance at the tuner (and the loss
in the coax) based on that impedance.


Now, with an EFHW, where you are trying to make it
work without a tuner,  you may need to adjust the wire
length for minimum SWR at your favorite frequency,
or pick a reasonable compromise for a usable SWR on
all the bands of interest.  In that case, the length may
be more critical.


Regarding allowing some extra length for strain relief
and connections:    there are two different scenarios.
Bare wire shorts to itself, so loops or knots count less
towards the overall length (they are just a bit of added
capacitance due to the thicker wire).  For insulated
wire, that isn't the case, and the full wire length needs
to be considered, although bending the wire does
increase the length of wire required for the same
resonant frequency compared to a straight wire.
In that case, a knot needs to be thought of as a form
of linear loading, and the effect on the resonant length
depends on where it is placed along the wire.

I had a case where I had tied a loop in the end of a
dipole wire and was trimming the free end to set the
resonant frequency.  Turned out I pruned off all the
excess without quite getting to my target frequency,
so I tied the same knot another couple feet down
the wire to continue the process.  But now the wire
was too short.  I ended up moving the knot until the
wire was resonant where I wanted it.  But the point
is, moving the knot shifted the resonant frequency,
for the same wire length.

So the question is far more complex that a simple
answer can account for.  So my general approach is
to cut the wire a bit long, put it up in the final
configuration, then prune (or fold back) the end of
the wire to raise the resonant frequency if needed.

So in your case, I'd say cut the wire a bit long,
perhaps 85', and see how it matches on each band.
If you have problems on some band(s), try folding
back an extra foot or so and see if that helps. 

If you have a problem at the bottom of a band,
then try adding some wire.  If it is at the top of
a band, try shortening the wire to move that
inconvenient impedance up above the band.

But don't get too worried about hitting an exact
length.

So consider that number to be about 84', and it
may be that anywhere between 80' and 90' is close
enough to make it work. 

KK2DOG

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Re: End Fed antenna wire length
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2023, 10:14:54 PM »

And if you don't want to roll your own:   https://myantennas.com/
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NA4IT

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Re: End Fed antenna wire length
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2023, 05:34:07 AM »

I like the KISS method. I ran portable occasionally, and used a 60 foot wire fed from an LDG Autotuner, into coax, into a LDG 4:1 UNUN. Worked everything I could hear, and tuned from daylight to dark.
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W1VT

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Re: End Fed antenna wire length
« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2023, 05:55:44 AM »

http://ehpes.com/n6mw/FoldWriteUp.pdf
An experiment folding back insulated wire over itself at the insulator to precisely adjust the resonant frequency.
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N8TGQ

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Re: End Fed antenna wire length
« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2023, 06:14:06 AM »

A simple rule-of-thumb my dad told me back in the 60s;


At least a quarter-wave on the lowest band you want to work.
Not a half-wave on any band you want to work.


This is for "random wire" antennas, not half-wave antennas.
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W1VT

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Re: End Fed antenna wire length
« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2023, 06:57:52 AM »

https://udel.edu/~mm/ham/randomWire/
"At multiples of half wavelengths of the transmit frequency the impedance is so high that tuners in most rigs often can't match it. The trick, therefore, is either a more capable tuner - see AA5TB's excellent page for EFHW info - or, addressed below, to cut the wire so that it is not a halfwave multiple of any frequency you want to use."

The better your tuner the less  you have to worry about not being able to match a length of wire. 
Some tuners will match anything longer than a given length of wire, half wave or not.
The big issue with high impedance half waves is that the voltages get too high for inexpensive relays to handle.
The popular EFHW transformer gets rid of this problem by eliminating the need for high voltage capacitors and relays.
All that is connected to the high impedance antenna wire is the output of a transformer.

Now, to answer the question of accurately calculating the resonance of an antenna system, you may want to experiment with EZNEC 7, which is now free!
It is a very powerful program that will allow you to specify insulation parameters, to allow you to model insulated wire.
You can model the shield of the coax as a thick wire covered with PVC insulation.  The strain relief may be modeled as a small inductor.

There is a  $200 program called HOBBIES if you want to use a more powerful program than the free EZNEC 7.  K6OIK has articles on his web site.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2023, 07:04:25 AM by W1VT »
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N8TGQ

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Re: End Fed antenna wire length
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2023, 06:02:43 AM »

Don't get wound up over precise lengths of a random wire antenna. By definition, you'll be using a tuner anyway. As long as you avoid half wavelengths, it should work. What's perfect for one band won't be for another.

You do have to be more precise for a half-wave end-fed, But you also limit the bands you can work.

I'm running 35' for antenna and 17' for counterpoise inside my apartment now. Wires run directly to my MFJ 971 tuner, no 9:1 matcher. I can work all bands, 40 to 10 meters. I run QRP to avoid problems and it's working well.

There's an MFJ-16010 tuner for sale over in the for sale section right now. It also works well for random wires, but has no SWR meter.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2023, 06:07:48 AM by N8TGQ »
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KB1GMX

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Re: End Fed antenna wire length
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2023, 01:36:18 PM »

w5alJ

USing a w9:1 transformer the lengths are not precise but there are lengths that make
for easier use with a tuner.

Lengths like 53, 59, 88 and 124 are often listed as good.

NOTE:  you must use a counterpoise (second wire on the ground side to complete
the antenna) with that or you will have massive RF in the shack.  Length for that
varies with band but safe start is 1/4 wave for the lowest frequency.

Allison
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