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Author Topic: First post 3Y0J presentation  (Read 796 times)

N1UR

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Re: First post 3Y0J presentation
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2023, 07:35:10 AM »

That's a pretty big assumption that the captain would allow the sail boom to be used to lift 250+ lb loads onto a Zodiac.  Possible, sure.  Allowed?  Not sure.

Ed  N1UR
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LA7GIA

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Re: First post 3Y0J presentation
« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2023, 07:36:40 AM »

The 200 kg winch system were broken down in 12 parts weighting between 4 kg and 25 kg. The generator weighted 108 kg, lifting this from the vessel was not any issue - we did this 8 times! Nevertheless, there would not be any issue transporting this generator when the surf was small, belive me. But that is not the kind of conditions we had. Bringing gasoline onto a vessel is for most cases not possible due to risk of fire/exploison, few if any captains want to do that. You don't want to be in a burning vessel, at least not on Bouvet - the standard is diesel fuel. Again, this was a decision we made long time ago due to Safety. We did try to purchase smaller Yanmar diesel generator, but due to Covid we had to cancel the order and get slightly heavier Hyundai generators. At day 13 of the DXPedition another 60 knot storm were predicted to arrive 5 days later (day 18) and that is the reason why we decided not to bring more equipment onshore. That would be the second 60 knot storm hitting the camp in one week.

Thus we made a thorough evaluation of several scenarios that could happen, in addition considered
- the available predicted weather window
- we developed a list of equipment that should be transported (500 kg)
- how to do it sucessfully and under what conditions.

Based on a risk assessment we made a decision to not proceed getting more equipment onshore, but pull out. Reason being that it would be extremely difficult to pull this equipment out in a safe and reliable way 3-5 days later in 3 to 4 meter waves! Decision to pull out had nothing to do with us running out of gasoline. It was the two 60 knots storms passing through the camp during the DXpedition that impacted the conditions too much. We could risk personal and equipment injuries, and we could risk losing equipment or have to leave equipment behind in the nature reserve. Leaving equipment behind would be a disaster. Another alternative was to stay through the storm but that could easily add 10 to 12 days to our schedule - we ended up on 50 days in totalt which was more than enough for most people : ) When you make decisions you have to evaluate all these aspects before deciding. When we arrived on the vessel the followng day we again measured 62 knot wind! You can see a vide on our facebook group. We also had to stay 2 days on the vessel in these conditions before we could proceed to Cape Town.



« Last Edit: March 16, 2023, 07:42:32 AM by LA7GIA »
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K1VSK

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Re: First post 3Y0J presentation
« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2023, 08:20:45 AM »

That's a pretty big assumption that the captain would allow the sail boom to be used to lift 250+ lb loads onto a Zodiac.  Possible, sure.  Allowed?  Not sure.

Ed  N1UR
Not a sailor apparently. No problem.

Boom hardware on any sailboat is quite capable of handling loads far greater than that. For example, it’s fairly common to use the boom to lift the engine up and onto the dock via the companionway for service, repair, replacement, etc..,
Even a small engine weighs more than these gensets.
On our grandkids Opti, I can quite safely hang from the boom over the side although my mass does tend to heel over the 16 ft boat a bit.


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VK3KTT

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Re: First post 3Y0J presentation
« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2023, 08:24:24 AM »

Ken thanks for going you made a lot of qso and you delivered for me as per usual from so many dxcc. my main question was the lack of 20m and you answered that. im very glad you returned safely that was the number 1 concern. any hints where you are going next :D
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10m dx'er
is sdr the future i dont know

vk3ktt/k3ktt

KD6KVL

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Re: First post 3Y0J presentation
« Reply #19 on: March 16, 2023, 08:27:46 AM »

The oqrs system is working.  We're getting our confirmations.  Sometimes things don't go according to plan.  They still got on the air and worked through it.  Everyone, especially the operators, would have preferred the ability for a bigger turn out in the logs, but those aren't the card Bouvet dealt out.  They played the hand they had and made 20,000 qso's from the floor of a tent on one of the hardest to survive on islands on earth.  Instead of criticizing the choice on generators or the cut of the jib, maybe we should just thank them for putting up the time money and effort and keep the grumpy old man grumbling to ourselves.
Thanks for the efforts Ken, glad everyone is safe and well.
Frank KG6N
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Frank KG6N

KD8MJR

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Re: First post 3Y0J presentation
« Reply #20 on: March 16, 2023, 10:05:05 AM »

That's a pretty big assumption that the captain would allow the sail boom to be used to lift 250+ lb loads onto a Zodiac.  Possible, sure.  Allowed?  Not sure.

Ed  N1UR
Not a sailor apparently. No problem.

Boom hardware on any sailboat is quite capable of handling loads far greater than that. For example, it’s fairly common to use the boom to lift the engine up and onto the dock via the companionway for service, repair, replacement, etc..,
Even a small engine weighs more than these gensets.
On our grandkids Opti, I can quite safely hang from the boom over the side although my mass does tend to heel over the 16 ft boat a bit.

I don't hear Ken mentioning using the Boom and Ed is only pointing out that getting permission is probably not possible.   I have been Scuba Diving for 35 plus Years and in all that Time i have never seen a boats Captain let us use any of the boats equipment to aid us out in a dive unless it was an emergency situation. 
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“A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes.”  (Mark Twain)

KD8MJR

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Re: First post 3Y0J presentation
« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2023, 10:09:52 AM »

The 200 kg winch system were broken down in 12 parts weighting between 4 kg and 25 kg. The generator weighted 108 kg, lifting this from the vessel was not any issue - we did this 8 times! Nevertheless, there would not be any issue transporting this generator when the surf was small, belive me. But that is not the kind of conditions we had.
---SNIP----

But Ken the conditions you had where pretty much as good as it gets on Bouvet.  I have watched clips from previous Dxpeditions and also expeditions that failed and the weather you had was either on par or much better than what they had.

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“A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes.”  (Mark Twain)

K1VSK

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Re: First post 3Y0J presentation
« Reply #22 on: March 16, 2023, 12:06:05 PM »

That's a pretty big assumption that the captain would allow the sail boom to be used to lift 250+ lb loads onto a Zodiac.  Possible, sure.  Allowed?  Not sure.

Ed  N1UR
Not a sailor apparently. No problem.

Boom hardware on any sailboat is quite capable of handling loads far greater than that. For example, it’s fairly common to use the boom to lift the engine up and onto the dock via the companionway for service, repair, replacement, etc..,
Even a small engine weighs more than these gensets.
On our grandkids Opti, I can quite safely hang from the boom over the side although my mass does tend to heel over the 16 ft boat a bit.

I don't hear Ken mentioning using the Boom and Ed is only pointing out that getting permission is probably not possible.   I have been Scuba Diving for 35 plus Years and in all that Time i have never seen a boats Captain let us use any of the boats equipment to aid us out in a dive unless it was an emergency situation.
None of that equates to a sailboat being a poor choice as implied in the post to which I was replying.
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VK3YP

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Re: First post 3Y0J presentation
« Reply #23 on: March 16, 2023, 12:43:50 PM »

I am not saying it was an easy operation. Far from it but the conditions were expected, and the team did a great job with what they had to work with.

But I still think if the correct equipment was selected from the start (light weight everything - radios, amps, verticals, petrol generators 2KV) then this would have been a 100,000 QSO operation for the money that was invested.

https://gdxf.de/reports/files/ZL9HR-2012.pdf

Page 2 (above link) you can see we are loading sailing vessel Evohe with "Spectre" brand plastic HDPE 20L "jerry cans" for all the petrol which were all lashed onto the deck of the Evohe for the trip to campbell island. And the trip was very rough with 10m swells - no issue at all - everything was intact.

John VK3YP

The 200 kg winch system were broken down in 12 parts weighting between 4 kg and 25 kg. The generator weighted 108 kg, lifting this from the vessel was not any issue - we did this 8 times! Nevertheless, there would not be any issue transporting this generator when the surf was small, belive me. But that is not the kind of conditions we had. Bringing gasoline onto a vessel is for most cases not possible due to risk of fire/exploison, few if any captains want to do that. You don't want to be in a burning vessel, at least not on Bouvet - the standard is diesel fuel. Again, this was a decision we made long time ago due to Safety. We did try to purchase smaller Yanmar diesel generator, but due to Covid we had to cancel the order and get slightly heavier Hyundai generators. At day 13 of the DXPedition another 60 knot storm were predicted to arrive 5 days later (day 18) and that is the reason why we decided not to bring more equipment onshore. That would be the second 60 knot storm hitting the camp in one week.

Thus we made a thorough evaluation of several scenarios that could happen, in addition considered
- the available predicted weather window
- we developed a list of equipment that should be transported (500 kg)
- how to do it sucessfully and under what conditions.

Based on a risk assessment we made a decision to not proceed getting more equipment onshore, but pull out. Reason being that it would be extremely difficult to pull this equipment out in a safe and reliable way 3-5 days later in 3 to 4 meter waves! Decision to pull out had nothing to do with us running out of gasoline. It was the two 60 knots storms passing through the camp during the DXpedition that impacted the conditions too much. We could risk personal and equipment injuries, and we could risk losing equipment or have to leave equipment behind in the nature reserve. Leaving equipment behind would be a disaster. Another alternative was to stay through the storm but that could easily add 10 to 12 days to our schedule - we ended up on 50 days in totalt which was more than enough for most people : ) When you make decisions you have to evaluate all these aspects before deciding. When we arrived on the vessel the followng day we again measured 62 knot wind! You can see a vide on our facebook group. We also had to stay 2 days on the vessel in these conditions before we could proceed to Cape Town.
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N1UR

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Re: First post 3Y0J presentation
« Reply #24 on: March 16, 2023, 01:02:33 PM »

Its interesting to hear of the concern of gas vs diesel.  I have never heard of using diesel generators before for DXpeditions.  Is it common?  Most of what I have seen looks like standard gas generators to me.  The 2.2kW Hondas are pretty much a staple.

Now storing gas below decks vs having barrels outside is another issue.  And if there was less outside deck space vs other vessels, I could see where this could become an issue.

Its always amazing to me how boats force decisions.  There is never the perfect boat.  Just a series of compromise decisions.

Ed N1UR
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VK3YP

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Re: First post 3Y0J presentation
« Reply #25 on: March 16, 2023, 01:43:21 PM »

I forgot to translate:

petrol = gas
220V = 115V

-);
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NO9E

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Re: First post 3Y0J presentation
« Reply #26 on: March 19, 2023, 04:45:28 AM »

We should be generous offering potentially useful advice to the professionals. Below a few suggestions about the power generation.

Small diesel generator from Ebay. Only 20kg. No review yet but must be good. Perhaps one can arrange a direct shipment to Bouvet!

Wind generator. The island had lots of wind! Plenty of 2 KW wind generators on amazon.com! According to specs can withstand 40 m/s or 80 knots!

An electricity cable from the boat to shore. To avoid energy loss, a transformer up to 1 kV and then back. They already had lots of coax that could can withstand many kV. I suggest BuryFlex.   A seal repellent may be needed.

In the extreme, the last method could be an AC injection, where a coax sends AC to the Island and brings back RF from the radio. No need to stay on the island.

A microwave link. The boat generates energy, sends through a microwave dish, and a dish on the Island picks up the power.

Be generous with your advice.  Perhaps Dom will pick up some of our ideas...

Ignacy NO9E
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ON6KE

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Re: First post 3Y0J presentation
« Reply #27 on: March 19, 2023, 05:59:40 AM »

We should be generous offering potentially useful advice to the professionals. Below a few suggestions about the power generation.

Small diesel generator from Ebay. Only 20kg. No review yet but must be good. Perhaps one can arrange a direct shipment to Bouvet!

Wind generator. The island had lots of wind! Plenty of 2 KW wind generators on amazon.com! According to specs can withstand 40 m/s or 80 knots!

An electricity cable from the boat to shore. To avoid energy loss, a transformer up to 1 kV and then back. They already had lots of coax that could can withstand many kV. I suggest BuryFlex.   A seal repellent may be needed.

In the extreme, the last method could be an AC injection, where a coax sends AC to the Island and brings back RF from the radio. No need to stay on the island.

A microwave link. The boat generates energy, sends through a microwave dish, and a dish on the Island picks up the power.

Be generous with your advice.  Perhaps Dom will pick up some of our ideas...

Ignacy NO9E

And Dom also knows what short path and long path is.
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KD8MJR

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Re: First post 3Y0J presentation
« Reply #28 on: March 19, 2023, 10:44:08 AM »

We should be generous offering potentially useful advice to the professionals. Below a few suggestions about the power generation.

Small diesel generator from Ebay. Only 20kg. No review yet but must be good. Perhaps one can arrange a direct shipment to Bouvet!

Wind generator. The island had lots of wind! Plenty of 2 KW wind generators on amazon.com! According to specs can withstand 40 m/s or 80 knots!

An electricity cable from the boat to shore. To avoid energy loss, a transformer up to 1 kV and then back. They already had lots of coax that could can withstand many kV. I suggest BuryFlex.   A seal repellent may be needed.

In the extreme, the last method could be an AC injection, where a coax sends AC to the Island and brings back RF from the radio. No need to stay on the island.

A microwave link. The boat generates energy, sends through a microwave dish, and a dish on the Island picks up the power.

Be generous with your advice.  Perhaps Dom will pick up some of our ideas...

Ignacy NO9E

Dom Also knows what F/H is and he knows that the time on the laptops needs to be set correctly!
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“A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes.”  (Mark Twain)
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