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Author Topic: Elmers a newbie here in need of expert opinions on headset, mic, and speaker  (Read 244 times)

K4RKX

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Elmers, I appologize for the rambling, I am trying to put into words my vision so you can see it.  The best comparison I can share with you is that of purchasing a brand new Chevy / Ford / or Dodge with a base model 4 speaker sound system and ripping that out and replacing it with a JL AUDIO sound system or whatever brand / model you prefer,   Rockford Fosgate  ?  Maybe Alpine?  Focal ?

I read alot of info on heil headsets, I hear that heil is the "JL AUDIO" of headsets,  and wanted your opinions on a few choices that contain the microphone and headset all together .  If you hate heil,  then whatever name brand and model you love... real world would be appreciated. .

I would like to have a complete headset for my ic 7300, ic9700, and yaesu FTDX10.

Also,  what about  microphones and external speakers?  What Manufacturer and model number do you prefer?

I am an audiophile and while the "how" and " what" we are listening for maybe light years  different than listening to music in an automobile,

There has got to be better speakers than the stock ones in the above radios. The radios being my icom 7300,  yaesu FTDX10, and my vhf/uhf rig.. IC9700.--------------i just dont like the tinny , can sound tin can sound that these 3" stock speakers produce .  When you get the volume up to 3/4 for my deaf ears to hear , you start hearing the vibrations of the radio frame and the raspyness that after a while wears me out so I turn off the radio and go outside so not to develop a headache.

If i could share my vision with you of how I wish to continue the setup of my shack.  Id compare what I am looking for in a microphone and external speaker.. along with complete headset with microphone ..  Id liken it to upgrading a stock stereo system in a base model vehicle to all out   JL AUDIO. 

How do I get JL AUDIO sound quality on HF and produce JL AUDIO sound quality?

Any suggestions would be great, if I purchase an external speaker of which in an automobile I would have a knowledge of what I am looking for So an Alpine headunit with 2 sets of JL Audio C3-650s powered by a HD600/4 AND to bring up the low end bass a W6 10 OR 12" SUB powered by a HD1200/1.... ALONG with upgrades to the alternator charging system , power and ground upgrades,  Mass loaded vinyl with sound dampening / deading in the headliner, under the carpet, door panels , dash firewall and trunk.  complete sound deading / reduction in body / frame vibrations and elimation of tire and road noise by coating the wheel wells inside and out and replacing the stock goodyear tires with Michelin LTX M/S tires.

I so appologize for the rambling but I am in high hopes that  my Amateur Radio family will just overlook my "ego" and ignorance and offer a few suggestions for some upgrades in sound quality for the shack.

By the way the shack is my old bedroom which is a 12' x 10' room with 9' ceilings and hardwood floor .  So my first actions are to add a couch and some sound panels on the wall and cover the hardwood floor with a nice thick rug.  Just the other day I was asked to adjust the TX bass to negative 2 and increase the treble to positive 3.. 


Thank you all !  God Bless
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N4UFO

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First thing... what are your radio ambitions? If you want to talk to far flung DX, 'great wide booming audio' is NOT what you need. A mic that will produce limited range audio (with punch) will put all of your rig's power into the frequencies most likely to be heard far off, with a weaker signal. If you are more interested in having long winded chats with folks nearby in the united states, then you are likely an 'audiophile' that wants to sound like you are sitting in a broadcast studio.

That said, I am mostly a CW & digital guy. So why am 'I' replying? Because I also have experience as a broadcaster and voiceover artist. I have two mics in my home arsenal. I have a Heil PR20 and love it as a dynamic mic. I also have a cheaper M-Audio condenser mic (not recommending either as much as using them as comparisons). A condenser mic is FAR more sensitive than a dynamic mic and will pick up a gnat fart at twenty paces, every bump and noise down the hall, etc. I use the Heil for most of my 'deep throated' straight stuff and most of my character voices. (I do Kermit the Frog to Sean Connery, Christopher Walken to Bill Clinton and about every odd character and accent you can imagine.) The condenser mic is great for close up low talking where you want to catch subtleties in the voice, etc. - Bottom line... there are different tools for different jobs. What's the job you want it to do?

In my shack I have a condenser hand mic with much better quality than the stock mic that came with the radio, but then I don't need much... I chase DX. With my portable gear (for satellites) I have Heil Dual Traveler headsets as the passband on the satellites is limited and 'audio processing' is discouraged. (I also have a Heil Pro-Micro headset up on the closet shelf, should I ever need one for lots of SSB, especially in a noisy enviroment, like portable at Field Day, in a park, etc.)

But if you chose a good quality broadcast mic and hang it from a spring suspension boom (to avoid picking up table knocks/vibrations) and then run it through one of these audio processors that the 'audiophile' guys use, you'll probably love it. Excellent audio response, deep base, adjust the curve to your liking, etc. And if you are worried about what you HEAR... Me, I have some very old cheap 'on the ear' headphones that have a good range I like; they aren't made anymore, so I keep babying them. But if I were going to put in nice speakers, I have an old set of very nice Realistic speakers out in my shed. Just a pleasure to listen to! But who has component stereos any more? I am sure someone can recommend something for your 'playback'.  ;)

Others can speak to what brand/type audio processors I am talking about, but I just wanted to get you thinking about 'what do I want to do with my radio' and answer that here and that will help others zero in on your needs.

GL & 73!  Kevin N4UFO
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K5LXP

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I have and use a Heil heaset/mic, and it works.  I also have and use a gaming headset, maybe all of $12 online and it too, works.  On our local HF chat net I've interchanged them and no one notices, at least enough to comment about.  Most rigs these days have some facility for TX AF EQ so it would have to be a pretty ratty mic that couldn't be optimized for whatever sound you're looking for.  Which by the way, is what?  Picking a brand or model of mic before quantifying what the outcome needs to be is working it backwards.  I would offer too, the Heil products are as much about marketing and eye candy as they are any degree of fidelity or quality.  As far as speakers, I've been using bookshelf stereo speakers for decades now.  In black and of similar size to the equipment they look nice alongside the radios and offer a nice boost to highs and lows vs basic OEM speakers.  You don't want too great of a frequency response (e.g. studio monitor) as most anything beyond the typical recovered signal envelope would be distortion products.

Mark K5LXP
Albuquerque. NM
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KC9YAV

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In my opinion the what you hear from the speaker / headphone is 50% from the radio and 50% from the speaker/headphone.  Let me explain; the speaker/headphone can only reproduce the signal it receives.  Granted some do a better job at reproducing it accurately then others.  With SSB communications the normal band width is 2.7 Khz, this is not audiophile width.  The typical frequency range settings of the filters on the radio restrict this further to cover about 400hz to 2600hz.  Now depending upon the radio you may have just a bass (low) and treble (high) adjustment each for transmit and receive audio. Some radios also have a mid-range and still others have a graphic EQ.   The point I am making is that if you only have a limited control of the radios audios processing you cannot expect that just changing speaker/headphone or microphone alone will solve the problem.
 
Obviously you can invest in audio processing equipment to get around the limitations of you radios.  However, you are still left with the fact that SSB normal bandwidth is 2.7 Khz.  The audio processing equipment will allow you to tailor your audio to best meet you needs for this bandwidth depending upon you goals; DX or Rag Chewing.

As to the what brands of equipment to use I will leave that to other to comment on.  The point I want to make was that there is no single silver bullet that will address your needs.  The is Amateur Radio not Broadcast Radio.
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WA3SKN

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Reality check... all three radios... " ic 7300, ic9700, and yaesu FTDX10" have and audio passband of 300Hz---3000Hz, and are not designed to pass audio frequencies outside that range.  This is part of what the FCC considers "good engineering practice", and conservation of bandwidth in accordance with international laws.
Adding a high fidelity microphone and/or speaker will not change the fact that audio bandwidth is limited.  You can add a better external speaker.  But not "high fidelity" will be had.
Your best bet is "headphones" and Heil makes well built/high quality, with more than enough audio passband both mic and speaker.  You can hear and not bother the rest of your family.  You will need to determine whether room noise minimizing is desired or not.
The good news here is that audio is fairly cheap to play with, just don't expect "high fidelity".

-Mike.
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KA4WJA

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Chris,
1)  First off, good-on-you for asking questions / wishing to learn!


2)  Allow me a quick preface, before addressing your specific questions?

I freely admit that I'm partial to more old school / classic ham rigs....and, I've personally known Bob Heil (who is now retired and no longer runs Heil Sound) for a few decades, and Heil Sound does make some nice mics (as does Electrovoice...I use a ~ 60 year old EV638 that I paid ~ $40 for, with my ~ 44 year old Drake TR-7).....
So, coming from me, this is an important preface:

a)  Of all the "modern" rigs I've heard over the recent years (and, I've heard a lot), one of the best sounding / clearest transmit audio, is the Icom IC-7300 with its stock Icom hand mic (the HM-129)!
Now, the '7300 itself is not my cup-of-tea, but I admit every one of them I've heard with the stock hand mic have sounded very good!
AND....and, with the stock mic or SM-30 desk mic, they've better than every other '7300, with ANY other mic, with ANY headset....fact is the stock Icom mic is one of the best mics for this rig!  (fyi, getting decent aftermarket mics for Icom rigs has always been an issue....as the Icom stock mics have, for the past 30 some years, been great....and, this applies to the maritime/marine radios as well as their ham rigs)

Further, I've surprisingly heard quite a few IC-9700's on 2m FM, and I also must say that the one with some "headset" sounded over-deviated and all-in-all "crappy"....but every one of the other '9700's with the stock Icom mic, or the Icom SM-50 desk mic, have sounded great!

Of course, there are the "unknowns", such as whether those with headsets, and aftermarket mics, etc., have screwed-with their rig's transmit audio EQ, etc., where their mic gains and processor levels were set at, etc....but, these are also "unknowns" for all of the other rigs as well, so...


b)  And, use caution with the FTdx-10...as Yaesu themselves states (in their manuals and marketing materials) that they use their ALC to boost the rig's talk power, etc. (Ugh!)
Goodness knows why/how these guys design their radios this way....but, I guess that's part of our "modern" amateur radio service. :(

So, make darn sure you grasp all of the transmit settings before messing with them....and this is especially true with modern Yaesu rigs (including the FTdx-10)....and, this means don't start setting things to some arbitrary number(s) that "some other ham" told you is best!  (or even worse, don't make adjustments to get more meter deflection!)
Especially make sure your mic gain (and other settings) are adjusted so you have NO ALC deflection at all in normal speech (and even with a "raised voice", you should make sure you have no ALC indication / deflection), as these rigs are notorious for ALC pumping, etc. (causing buckshot splatter, etc.)


c)   The audio amps in most ham rigs these days are pretty piss-poor, compared with stereo / hi-fi amps....they are not really designed to be used with the volume up higher than half-way....and, this also why using a good pair of communications headphones helps a LOT!
{Heck the audio amp in the original (multi-thousand-dollar) Elecraft K3 was so bad, everyone either was forced to use headphones, or they took a line level signal out and drove an external amp / speaker...}

So, while you're correct that the tiny internal speakers in many modern ham radios are fairly poor, their audio amps are, in some circumstances, equally at fault.

d)  BTW, if your room acoustics are effecting your transmit audio, then your mic gain is up too high and your mic is too far away from your mouth!  (this isn't "broadcasting")

And, while sure, room acoustics can effect your hearing of what signals are coming out of the radio's speaker, or external speaker....if this is the case, yes improving the room acoustics is great, but so is moving the speaker closer to your ears (and making sure it's pointing right at you)!



3)  Next, I suggest you take a tiny step back from buying a new mic, headset, speakers, etc., and learn more about "communications audio" first.

Start with using the stock mics supplied with the radios;  and a decent set of headphones...
I specifically recommend "communications" headphones, like the Kenwood HS-5, or a simple / inexpensive pair of headphones, no need to spend hundreds of dollars here! 


As for "speakers", while the radio manufacturer's "matching speakers" are usually good (some are quite good, some just "okay"), and I myself use both my Drake MS-7 and (shh, don't tell anyone) I also use a big Yaesu SP-2000 (with aftermarket acoustic insulation inside), and both are good, but the big SP-2000 is very good...(fyi, I got a GREAT deal on a used SP-2000, that I just could not pass up!)
But, they are damned expensive for what you get (the cost is mostly just to "match" the radio), so...many hams use simple home stereo "bookshelf" speakers or computer speakers, to good success....and, they are much less expensive!  :)

As Mike, WA3SKN (and the others), points out there is a world of difference between our HF-SSB "communications audio" and hi-fi / music / multi-octave-singing audio!

As you can see from these graphs from my QRZ page, the human speaking voice (especially "raised" or "loud") has fairly narrow range and peaks....with vowels being the lower audio freqs that are naturally louder, and much of the hard consonants (where most specific comprehension and annunciation is primarily transmitted) being above 1000hz (approx 1250hz - 2500hz):



This the primary reason I recommend using the stock mic(s) and simple speaker(s) and headphones!  (at least for now)

FYI, a decent pair of headphones (even cheap ones) can make a world of difference in picking signals out of the noise!
The more you use an HF radio "clean" (that's without DNR, etc.), with a good set of headphones....the more you'll realize the best "analog signal processor" is inside your own head, and is usually better than the "digital signal processor" in the radio.... Hi hi. :)
{I'm speaking figuratively here}


4)   Also, like some of the others here, I'm wondering what type of operating you're doing / planning on doing?
'Cuz, using a "headset" for casual operating is going to "get old", real fast....(translate that to: "for a contest, they're great....for most other operating, they're a pain-in-the-ass")

Perhaps, reading about microphones / headsets a bit less....and get-on-the-air more....might allow you to see that while, in some weird circles, it's considered "cool" to use aftermarket mics/headsets, etc., but for anything but contesting (especially multi-multi), or some other small niche, a headset is a pain....and, while some aftermarket mics are good, especially if on "booms", etc., most find that (again, except for contesting or serious SSB DX'ing) the manufacturer's stock mic to be good (and in the case of Icom and Kenwood, very good!) 



5)  You asked for manufacturer's model numbers....so, here goes:

a)  For your Icom IC-7300 and IC-9700:
1- The Icom HM-129 hand mic (this is the stock hand mic)
2- The Icom SM-30 (or SM-50) desk mic

The "matching speakers", SP-23 or SP-38, are good...but pricey!  (I enjoy having a nice speaker with a front panel headphone jack, so the pricey SP-38 is good for this)
Or, just about any decent "bookshelf" stereo speaker....

Kenwood HS-5 headphones (or if you prefer lighter-weight phones, the HS-6 are very good as well)....fyi, I own both and love them, both.


b)  For your FTdx-10:
1- The Yaesu SSM-75e hand mic (this is the stock hand mic, I think?)
2- The M-1 (or M-100 ) desk mic

The "matching speakers", SP-30 or SP-2000, are good...but pricey!  (I enjoy having a nice speaker with a front panel headphone jack, so the pricey SP-2000 is good for this, as well as it does have very good sound, no rattling, no "tinny" / crappy sound!)
Or, just about any decent "bookshelf" stereo speaker....

Kenwood HS-5 headphones (or if you prefer lighter-weight phones, the HS-6 are very good as well)....fyi, I own both and love them, both.


6)  Finally, if your hearing is really bad (you need to turn the radio's volume up 3/4 of the way), then I suggest using a line-level out of the radio (or a headphone out), and drive an external audio amp and speaker....(or just use the Kenwood headphones)

As I wrote above, the audio amps in our radios are NOT designed to be run much higher than half-way up.
Heck, I've seen specs of "10% THD at 1-watt" or "10% THD at 2 watts", etc....and, the old Elecraft K3 was even worse!

So, if you need high-volume levels, use an external amp/speaker, or good headphones (not a headset).



I really hope this helps....but, to be honest, you've gotten the cart well ahead of the horse here, so I highly recommend you push the whole "headset" and "aftermarket mic" ideas back onto the back-burner for a while.

73,
John,  KA4WJA


P.S.  While some ham rigs can have slightly wider transmit (and receive) audio passbands than the "ham standard" of ~ 2.3khz to ~ 2.7khz, remember the "telco" standard has been 2.7khz (300hz to 3000hz) for many decades (used-to-be 300hz to 3100hz, which is still the commercial SSB standard).

Most ham rigs these days are ~ 2.4 to 2.7khz....my old TR-7 is 2.3khz (transmit and receive), and while everyone comments on the "great audio"....when I'm on-the-air with my friends with ANAN's, etc. where they're ~ 3khz, in comparison they say my audio is "communications grade" (which to me is a compliment, but to a "broadcaster" is an insult)

Just saying, whether it's a mic, headset, speaker, and/or headphones....even the "wider" guys are limited to "communications grade" audio, so the search for "better audio" should be about reducing the noise and distortions, not about bandwidth!
« Last Edit: March 18, 2023, 05:47:24 PM by KA4WJA »
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AD7VO

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FYI
Unless something has changed, the stock mic for the IC-7300 is the HM-219.
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KA4WJA

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Yes, Kelby, you are correct.
My dyslexia strikes again. hi hi

FYI
Unless something has changed, the stock mic for the IC-7300 is the HM-219.

Seriously, thank you for correcting me!
I try hard to proof-read these posts, and as you can see I also usually have to edit them....despite all of that, sometimes something slips thru.  :(
And, when it's a "spec", "part number", etc., it's pretty important to get it right, so I really do appreciate the correction.

(somethings are no big deal....heck, even Glenn gave up trying to correct me writing db, instead of dB...capital letters are harder for me...)

73 my friend,

John,  KA4WJA
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WB6BYU

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Let me summarize a bit...

When you're playing music, that should be all there is in the
speaker / headphones, and you want to hear all of it.

When you're listening to an SSB signal, you're also going to
hear other signals from adjacent frequencies, along with
received static, lightning crashes, and various other types
of interference.  Those are all coming into the receiver, and
the primary way to limit what you hear is to narrow the
range of frequencies that pass through the receiver.  That's
why we talk about a passband such as 400 - 3000 Hz:
enough to receive speech, but not too much adjacent stuff.
The wider the receiver passband, the more interference you
get along with the desired signal.

You certainly can use high-fidelity headphones or speakers
with such a radio, but it won't give you better fidelity on the
received signal.  What they may allow you to hear are various
hums, thumps, and other stray sounds that the receiver
generates, but that the designers didn't worry about because
they assumed hams would be using cheap headphones that
don't respond to low or high frequencies.

But, if you have something handy, it is worth a try.

Having a "high-fidelity" signal on transmit can cause similar
problems.  The wider the transmitted frequency bandwidth,
the more interference you can cause to those using adjacent
frequencies.  More bass is NOT necessarily a good thing on
SSB, even if it makes your voice sound more natural, as it
requires more spectrum.  (Not a problem on AM, though,
since the signal is already more than twice as wide as SSB,
and any additional bass is near the center of the occupied
bandwidth.)

As was mentioned earlier, for a contest or DX, or whenever
getting the message through is more important than high
fidelity, a microphone that emphasizes the higher frequencies
over the lower ones is often preferred:  that puts more of
your power into the frequencies that convey information.
The transmitted signal won't necessarily sound like your
voice in person, but will be easier to pull out of the noise.

For chatting to local friends who know you, a mic with a
wider frequency range will sound more natural (up to
the limits of the transmitter filtering).


So you need to consider just what you are trying to
improve by using a "better" microphone.  Sure, there are
some that are rather poor (I don't recommend carbon
mics, and some old crystal ones may have peaky audio).
Some mic problems are due to case design, or the mic
element not being installed properly, so it is recessed
too far into the case.  Sometimes small speakers can be
replaced with others of similar size that handle higher
power with less rattle and distortion.

But the degree of improvement that "the best" microphones
and speakers can provide is ultimately limited by the radios
they are used with more than anything else.
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