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Author Topic: Surprise LOTW discovery -- Cards are so optional now  (Read 890 times)

WO7R

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Re: Surprise LOTW discovery -- Cards are so optional now
« Reply #30 on: March 19, 2023, 05:58:22 PM »

Quote
Hundreds & hundreds & hundreds of hours down the drain.

Heartbreaking.

But those tales are probably one of the reasons cards are mostly for true collectors, not for awards.

I didn't even like to drive them to the card checker.  In Minnesota, you worried about accidents, snow drifts, heck just dropping a stack of cards in a puddle.

A lot of cards are printed on injet printers even if it is just a label.  Well, I can attest from experiments, deliberate and accidental, that if you "wet" a card with inkjet ink, the ink . . .  runs.  Months and maybe years later, it . . . runs.

So many damn ways to lose.

One EMP pulse would probably wipe every electronic confirmation out, but short of that, electronic is going to be way more secure and way less likely to "get lost".  Moreover, replacement is actually feasible for a rational sum.
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VA3VF

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Re: Surprise LOTW discovery -- Cards are so optional now
« Reply #31 on: March 19, 2023, 06:01:02 PM »

My ethnicity is predominately Greek but I'm no Socrates, Plato or Aristotle.  :)

Stoicism is an acquired quality. Ethnicity does not play a role. :)
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WO7R

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Re: Surprise LOTW discovery -- Cards are so optional now
« Reply #32 on: March 19, 2023, 07:27:12 PM »

To give a flavor, my personal stats are in a SQL DB, so it is easy for me to "bucketize" my efforts.  All but 15 of the most recent are officially recognized in Newington right now, so, today at least, there's no serious distinction between "worked" and "confirmed" or even "validated in Newington".

As you can see 2004, when LOTW started or at least started for me, was a real watershed.  The "mid range" data matches the all time kind of by coincidence, kind of not.  The years since 2015 are significant for the discussion here.  It matches my raw totals (I actually expected this to do a bit better).  I guess as I approach 2500 on the Challenge, I am losing the ability to "dupe" band countries and so eliminate the card requests for non-LOTW holdouts.

People with under 2000 on DXCC Challenge should really expect more than 90 per cent and more via LOTW until you get well into the higher levels of accomplishment because it is not "them or nothing" for just about everything for you.

Before 20042004-2015After 2015All Time
5LOTW0.7%656LOTW52.3%848LOTW82.8%1509LOTW51.4%
488Direct73.1%491Direct39.1%161Direct15.7%1140Direct38.8%
174Buro26.%89Buro7.1%5Buro0.5%268Buro9.1%
1WF5E0.1%19WF5E1.5%9WF5E0.9%20WF5E0.7%
0discard0.%0discard0.%1discard0.1%1discard0.%
668100.%1255100.%1024100.%2938100.%


Don't let the 2939 All Time excite you too much -- it includes more than DXCC Challenge such as mode only countries (that added an entry beyond an extant bad only one) and also my 2m results.  I'm nowhere near DXCC Challenge 3000 and not likely at all to get there in my remaining life.
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KG4RUL

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Re: Surprise LOTW discovery -- Cards are so optional now
« Reply #33 on: March 20, 2023, 04:26:06 AM »

Repeat this until it SINKS IN!

They are not nuclear secrets!  This is a fun hobby!  The fate of the world does not rest on it!

I don't need the two year old baby old lecture!
There are some valid concerns with having the operators and Dxpeditions validated.   I have had several rare contacts that I worked and then found out through Lotw that these stations where not valid.  In some cases the operator was not even in the entity.  If you go around thinking you got bands and modes covered when in fact they are not covered you will probably not bother to work that band or mode again when a real opportunity comes up.

To reiterate, repeat the above until it sinks in!
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WO7R

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Re: Surprise LOTW discovery -- Cards are so optional now
« Reply #34 on: March 20, 2023, 10:06:04 AM »

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I have not used Clublog for log keeping or rewards due to the initial lack of security.  Have they upgraded Clublog to the levels of Lotw in terms of operator verification and Dxpedition validity?

LOTW is a great system.  But, it is in your own interest to reevaluate your stance versus Clublog.  It is not used for ARRL or CQ awards, so it does not need very much in the way of security.

For what Clublog does, it has plenty and enough security.  The number of "takeovers" of a Clublog account is, in my extensive experience of it, zero.  The benefit to doing so is very limited to nonexistent.  The probability of getting caught, even if it can be done, is high.  It's not like the legitimate owner of the account is a potted plant that can be expected to pay no attention.

It's not like you can establish an account for some DX that chooses not to use Clublog and expect to go undetected, either.  Certainly not for anyplace "interesting".  It's just not that easy.

I dunno, maybe someone has forged a Mexican account to a bogus call and given out QSOs on 160m to his or her friends.  Something like that maybe slips through.  Maybe.  But if that's the game, why bother with Clublog?  Why not just make up cards to start with?

You are not going to get useful "confirmations" of Heard or Bouvet through Clublog chicanery.  It just doesn't work.

If we want to talk about a dystopian future where it takes over from LOTW, then we can have a separate someday discussion about how much security is really needed.  But as for today?  It has plenty.  And, more than meets the eye.
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W1VT

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Re: Surprise LOTW discovery -- Cards are so optional now
« Reply #35 on: March 20, 2023, 10:17:17 AM »

In 2013 I set out to work 80M for 5BDXCC with a 42 ft top loaded wire vertical.
Got a great start with the ARRL CW DX contest working 76 countries. 
I quickly realized that a lot of DX back then only did paper QSLs.
Rather than wait, I quickly sent them out, figuring out that if I QSLed quickly they would respond quickly as well.
Sure enough, I got the twenty or so cards I needed and had my 80M DXCC in just 3 months!

I'm now working on 2500 DXCC Challenge points.  With just a 500W amp and wires in the trees I don't have the luxury of
passing up stations that only do paper QSLs.  I'd say that LoTW only is quite doable for 2000 Challenge points.
Especially if the good solar conditions hold out for a couple more years.
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VA3VF

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Re: Surprise LOTW discovery -- Cards are so optional now
« Reply #36 on: March 20, 2023, 01:25:33 PM »

Quote
I dunno, maybe someone has forged a Mexican account to a bogus call and given out QSOs on 160m to his or her friends.  Something like that maybe slips through.  Maybe.  But if that's the game, why bother with Clublog?  Why not just make up cards to start with?

I wrote about this years ago. What you describe is "kind of" (apologies to the Legal professionals out there) collusion. If that is the case, how is the "Fort Knox" like LoTW security going to prevent it from happening?

As for cards, we all know that is the most secure way, never mind outright fake cards or "molested" 17m cards that become 160m.

I have "accepted" the security LoTW uses, but I would not loose any sleep if it was relaxed a bit.

As you said elsewhere, a scheme/scam of this sort is not likely to go undetected for very long, but let's talk about "outcomes". If it's one or twos does it really "deflowers" the DXCC program? If it's wholesale, would it be hard for the League to revoke those credits?
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KD6KVL

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Re: Surprise LOTW discovery -- Cards are so optional now
« Reply #37 on: March 20, 2023, 02:20:14 PM »

All the security in the world can't stop a ham from paying a foreign ham to upload a bogus qso.  Its as honest and true as the participants. 
Frank KG6N
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Frank KG6N

WO7R

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Re: Surprise LOTW discovery -- Cards are so optional now
« Reply #38 on: March 20, 2023, 06:52:04 PM »

Quote
As you said elsewhere, a scheme/scam of this sort is not likely to go undetected for very long, but let's talk about "outcomes". If it's one or twos does it really "deflowers" the DXCC program? If it's wholesale, would it be hard for the League to revoke those credits?

The other thing is, I have (in a different hobby past-time, SETI@home) lived through a very terrible security breach.  Fortunately, it did not damage the actual scientific work, but for those who participated to run up a score in "how much I contributed to the project", it was a major, major blow.  Pretty close to a worst case scenario.  Even worse, for me personally, you could aggregate results as a team as well as individually.  Guess which team they joined?  The one I did (it was one of the larger teams, world-wide).  So, I "knew" some of these guys, at least as well as one does over the internet.

Interestingly enough, despite some very hurt feelings all around, some changes were made and the program made a pretty full recovery. 

So, even if LOTW is unexpectedly breached in a big way, it is most unlikely to be the end of the world after all.  I know, I've lived through the equivalent.

People are more resilient about these things than we might realize.
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K3NRX

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Re: Surprise LOTW discovery -- Cards are so optional now
« Reply #39 on: March 21, 2023, 09:37:43 AM »

I love QSL Cards!

V
K3NRX
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KD6KVL

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Re: Surprise LOTW discovery -- Cards are so optional now
« Reply #40 on: March 21, 2023, 11:08:59 AM »

Me too!
Frank KG6N
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Frank KG6N

N2SR

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Re: Surprise LOTW discovery -- Cards are so optional now
« Reply #41 on: March 21, 2023, 12:42:47 PM »


As for cards, we all know that is the most secure way, never mind outright fake cards or "molested" 17m cards that become 160m.


Let's not forget W3AZD at the DXCC desk back 30+ years ago that would deny acceptance of your QSL card because when he was examining it with an electron microscope he noticed an angstrom thick whisker, smudge, or a ballpoint pen press that wasn't the same color ink as the data on the card, or something else that he just "didn't like." 

Thank God his insanity was stopped.
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Elect a clown.  Expect a circus.
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