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Author Topic: General advice best antenna for Weather Fax on a yacht  (Read 281 times)

DIALAMONKEY

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General advice best antenna for Weather Fax on a yacht
« on: March 19, 2023, 01:05:26 PM »

G'day all, just wondering if I could ask for some general advice and some specific questions on what would be the best antenna for Weather Fax on a yacht.

I'm just about to head off into the Pacific sailing and would love to be able to use weather fax bulletins.

My current antenna is a EFHW 80-10, which is not resonant on WEFAX frequencies and when in port there is a lot of RFI so I cannot gauge how well it might work.

My specific questions

(Q) Would I get a better signal if the antenna was resonant(low SWR) at the WEFAX frequencies? I'm using a SDR(Play HF+) with high input impedance? for RX

(Q) Should I be looking for a High Q selective antenna? to improve the S/N ratio?

(Q) Underway I would guess a magnetic loop antenna would be impossible to keep aligned properly?

(Q) If SWR is not important could utilizing all existing metal/wire aloft of the rigging work well to soak in signal?

The WEFAX frequencies of interest for me are 5807kHz, 9459kHz, 13550.5kHz, 16340.1kHz-

I had also wondered about hauling up the mast a dipole of the right length on schedule as I would only really require a few different frequencies.

Thanks and I would really appreciate any input or advice to steer me in the right direction

- Matt
« Last Edit: March 19, 2023, 01:10:17 PM by DIALAMONKEY »
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KH6AQ

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Re: General advice best antenna for Weather Fax on a yacht
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2023, 02:41:26 PM »

The WEFAX frequencies of interest for me are 5807kHz, 9459kHz, 13550.5kHz, 16340.1kHz-

(Q) Would I get a better signal if the antenna was resonant(low SWR) at the WEFAX frequencies? I'm using a SDR(Play HF+) with high input impedance? for RX.

(A) probably not. Receiving is about S/N ratio and even a non-resonant antenna should provide more than enough signal. The SDR RSP1 noise figure looks good to me.


(Q) Should I be looking for a High Q selective antenna? to improve the S/N ratio?

(A) If you mean avoiding strong out of band signal corrupting the receiver, maybe and maybe not. I would dial the SDR LNA gain down and see if copy improves.


Once you are out of port the only local RFI is produced by the electronics on your boat. To attenuate any of this you might bring along several FT240-31 ferrite cores as well as a kit of clamp-on cores to experiment with.
 

I had also wondered about hauling up the mast a dipole of the right length on schedule as I would only really require a few different frequencies.

I don't think a resonant antenna is necessary.



SDR RSP1 datasheet     https://www.sdrplay.com/docs/RSP1Adatasheetv1.9.pdf
« Last Edit: March 19, 2023, 02:44:12 PM by KH6AQ »
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KA4WJA

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Re: General advice best antenna for Weather Fax on a yacht
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2023, 03:31:18 PM »

Matt,
First off, a quick preface!

You need to rid your boat of all the RFI producing devices!!!
This is paramount!  And, is much more important that "what antenna"!


{FYI, I sit at the dock, with some shore-side RFI, and listen to Australian Maritime SSB Voice Weather broadcasts and receive clear Australian HF WeFax images....here at the dock in Florida, ~ 9600 - 11,000 miles away from their 1kw transmitters....as well as hear low-power (~ 100 - 150 watt) stations, from all over....so, if you have a lot of noise/RFI, you must get rid of it, or you'll be frustrated by HF comms of any type on-board!
Remember the interfering devices are mere inches or a few feet from your radio and antenna....unlike the advantages other have on land, where the distances can be 50 - 100 feet or more!

Once that is done, get away from the dock.....usually just a 1/2 mile or so from shore, and the noise drops many,10's of db's...}

 
Please see other posts and videos, linked below, for some "proof" of this. :)


1)  I have the answers to all your questions....but, that'll take a while.  FYI, I assisted in my first HF Maritime install in 1973...and have been using/installing/troubleshooting them on/off ever since.  :)  (probably best for you to read a bit here and watch a few videos, and then we could speak on the phone....as this could get pretty boring and confusing for many folks here-abouts...)


2)   So, in the mean time, two or three other important things:

a)  a single-wire, non-resonant antenna, preferably vertical (or close-to vertical) of approx 15' - 30' long, will work very well!  (whether it's operated "against ground", or not)
{in addition to using one ~ 22' long, right now, on my current boat....I've been using this same basic antenna design, with lengths of ~ 20' - 30' for many decades, offshore across oceans, for HF WeFax reception, going back to the 1970's when we used US Navy WeFax out of Norfolk, VA and Rota, Spain, on 8080khz and 10865khz...yep, been doing this for > 45 years now....and currently using NMG, NMF, NMC, KVM70....GYA, and of course also, VMC, and VMW....see my links below!}


b)  Have a look at some postings of mine elsewhere....and some videos I put together.
It's all free....nobody is selling you anything! 
(The videos are designed for a "non-technical offshore sailor" audience....and done by me alone, on-board, on a real offshore cruising boat [yes, tied to the dock], in the real-world, LIVE, with no simulations, etc....just like you'd do it on your boat....so, be kind, as there was no script, no director, etc...just my extemporaneous narration, my fingers, and my radios, WeFax unit, etc...)

Good HF WeFax Reception, on-board at the dock, March 2021 (real world)
https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f13/good-hf-wefax-reception-on-board-at-the-dock-march-2021-real-world-248424.html

Offshore Weather (WeFax, etc.)
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLnN6ygtZ3h2mPZAx2vWzdjTJjHlChruyY


And, another, perhaps more basic video regarding HF WeFax...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1QyDVgclto


 HF-SSB Radio, Proper Installation Tips/Techniques, etc.
https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f13/hf-ssb-radio-proper-installation-tips-techniques-etc-198305.html

 Marine SSB Stuff (how-to better use / properly-install SSB, & troubleshoot RFI, etc.)
https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f13/marine-ssb-stuff-how-to-better-use-properly-install-ssb-and-troubleshoot-rfi-etc-133496.html

 EPIRB's are NOT dead! / EPIRB Activation? What happens/How to improve rescue odds!!
https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f13/epirbs-are-not-dead-epirb-activation-what-happens-how-to-improve-rescue-odds-146617.html

Marine HF-DSC-SSB, the GMDSS, "communications stool legs"
https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f13/marine-hf-dsc-ssb-the-gmdss-communications-stool-legs-130640.html


HF-DSC Comms
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLnN6ygtZ3h2n3z5nlv-ga2zYuPozhUXZX

Maritime HF Comms
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLnN6ygtZ3h2nPNdApNsZDo_Jk3NB_Bt1y

HF Radiowave Propagation
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLnN6ygtZ3h2nLpcVqBBa9dn7XzjMICnq7

Icom M-802 Instruction Videos (much also applies to other HF radios, especially other Icom maritime radios)
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLnN6ygtZ3h2npivDjoFrC-8QKVyMb4tVr

Offshore Sailing
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLnN6ygtZ3h2nbwAGh5DKgTCj15iyl6qoY


New Video, showing HF comms to multiple stations within minutes of walking on-board!
https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f13/new-video-showing-hf-comms-to-multiple-stations-within-minutes-of-walking-on-board-212861.html

BBC (and other) Shortwave Braodcasts, still on-the-air (and stong in Florida!)
https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f13/bbc-and-other-shortwave-braodcasts-still-on-the-air-and-stong-in-florida-184267.html



c)  Why in the world are you using a transformer-fed, EFHW 80-10, as an HF antenna on an ocean-going yacht?
This is a rather poor antenna choice!

And, can I also assume you do not have an HF Maritime Radio?  (The GMDSS started implementation in the early 90's....and has been mandatory for all SOLAS vessels and all 190 signatory nations, and their hundreds of coast stations, since Feb 1999....that's 24 years ago...and, you DO realize that NO HF ham radio has DSC calling? and that you cannot raise anyone, no merchant vessels, no coast guards, etc., via SSB Voice, as you must signal them via DSC first and then continue your two-traffic of any sort via SSB Voice...see my postings and my videos for explanation and LIVE, real-world demonstrations of this...)
 









I really do hope this helps?
Fair winds!

73,
John,  KA4WJA
s/v  Annie Laurie

https://jerodisys.com/C470/foto_bot.htm

https://www.youtube.com/user/captainjohn49/playlists

https://www.qrz.com/db/ka4wja

https://www.instagram.com/ka4wja_/


EDIT:
P.S.  I just saw KH6AQ replied while I was typing....
In a nutshell....forget screwdriver antennas, mag loop antennas, etc....forget trying a resonant antenna as well (not needed, and not going to be possible!).
Just use a wire or whip, ~ 20' - 30' long, and you're good-to-go!


And, goodness...do NOT use an LNA!!!!  On HF, on a boat, NO!!!
And, why use an SDR anyway?
« Last Edit: March 19, 2023, 03:49:00 PM by KA4WJA »
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DIALAMONKEY

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Re: General advice best antenna for Weather Fax on a yacht
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2023, 09:23:00 PM »

Wow Thanks KA4WJA, lots of very useful information there, lots to get through there too, especially the fantastic youtube playlist!

We had a working Icom 78 (without DSC of course) with an auto tuner - but unfortunately corrosion in the board's Via's killed the PLL, I've started board surgery replacing bad via rivets, ongoing. I currently mess with my uBitx quite a lot.

I also have several SDR's. I'm pretty impressed by my SdrPlay HF+ and a hackrf one for experiments

As far as RFI, I eliminate that issue by turning off everything - fridge (with a OFF sign), autopilot, lights etc (usually on a radio schedule)
 
Interesting concept of using a 15-30 foot (random length?) wire antenna ( with a autotuner?) - I'll give that a go tonight on WeFax,

I have heavy good quality coax run so no LNA. Although the SDRPlay has an internal LNA..

In terms of safety we currently have a mix of HF and Sat comms (iridium phone, epirbs, inreach & possibly get Starlink)
« Last Edit: March 19, 2023, 09:34:34 PM by DIALAMONKEY »
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KL7JT

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Re: General advice best antenna for Weather Fax on a yacht
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2023, 09:49:02 PM »

Consider using a backstay or similar if not using for TX.
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KA4WJA

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Re: General advice best antenna for Weather Fax on a yacht
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2023, 10:05:31 PM »

You're very welcome! 

But, I'm not sure my points are getting through, so I'll give this another brief try....


First off, you don't need a "tuner" for a receive antenna!
And, it doesn't need to be any specific length.
  Depending on your specific location / voyaging area, you may find using the lower HF bands (where a longer length, of 30' - 35' would be good), or the higher HF bands (where a shorter length of 15' - 20' would be good)....but, overall I've found a length of ~ 20' - 30' is a great compromise.  :)


Secondly, you don't need a "pre-amp" (LNA) for HF reception!
Also, you don't need "big" or "low-loss" coax.
...especially if its "LMR-type" coax, as this is not a good choice for use near sea water and/or on a moving boat! 


Third, turning off systems / devices on-board to use the radio?
Seriously?
Please forgive me, but this is pretty bad seamanship. 
Why not just get rid of the RFI, it doesn't cost much money (less than a decent lunch)? 
Or, even better, just remove the offending devices? 
(as you can see, I live in comfort, fridge/freezer, autopilot, lights, fans, stereo, lots of solar, wi-fi, etc....with NO RFI issues....heck, I can even run the diesel genset and run air cond if needed, with no RFI)



Fourth, in terms of Safety / Distress comms, you made no mention of EPIRB (but assume you do have one, not PLB's, but a real EPIRB?).

But, you mentioned HF?  But, you mention no HF-DSC?  So, please forgive me again, but without HF-DSC, a marine HF radio is not part of "safety system". :(

And, you mentioned sat comms (iridium and InReach)....[yes, I also have an Iridium 9555 phone, and was a beta-tester for the original Iridium, back in the late 1990's]
But, you do realize that neither an Iridium sat phone, nor an InReach are part of safety systems on-board, yes? They're not a substitute for an EPIRB, etc.

Further, the one thing that is weirdly overlooked here is that none of those are "broadcast" systems, like HF-DSC is....meaning the HF-DSC signal goes to all stations within range of the six int'l DSC signaling channels/bands (2, 4, 6, 8, 12, and 16mhz).....that's > 10,000 SOLAS vessels plying the oceans daily, as well as > 80 HF-DSC Coast Stations world wide, and > 450 MF-DSC coast stations....
Sat comm doesn't do any of that.


{please remember, I LOVE sat comm....made a good living from it...and have been an Iridium user for many years, starting as a beta-tester ~ 25 years ago....but, these are not substitutes for HF-DSC comms>}


Now, finally...to be clear, you do NOT need any of this....you do not need any of these systems, no wefax, no HF, no sat comm, etc...
My first circumnavigators that I met had none of these....and they only added a fixed-mount 25w VHF radio in Bali, when they were halfway around their circumnav! (this was in the mid-1970's)

And, on my first Atlantic crossing, we had no GPS (this was decades before GPS), no radar, etc....we did have HF maritime comms, though...

Okay, I won't ramble on, nor preach anymore!
You have the info you need, if you need more just ask.  :)

(I just think some of what you posted sounds so way, way off from normal seamanship and good comms engineering, I wondering where/how did you come across these recommends?  I hope not on-line, or "down-the-dock"?  'Cuz, there are official / engineering-backed sources for all of this, available for free!  Just have a look, the real info is there for all, for free....and it works, works well, and is used daily by 1000's of vessels at sea, every day! :) )


Fair winds.

73,
John,  KA4WJA
s/v Annie Laurie

P.S.  Matt, I'm not sure where you are located, but assume your location requires the charts covered by the NZ Met Service and the broadcasts from ZKLF?

Just hope you're aware that there are other HF WeFax weather broadcasts out there, too?
https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f13/good-hf-wefax-reception-on-board-at-the-dock-march-2021-real-world-248424.html

https://www.weather.gov/media/marine/rfax.pdf


And, be aware of ZKLF's "15 minute" round-robin transmit schedule ---- they use the same transmitter, changing bands every 15 minutes, with their 5mhz, 9mhz, and 13mhz freqs used 24/day....but, sharing the hour among 5 freqs, with the -45min to top-of-the-hour segment shared between their 3mhz freq used at night, and their 16mhz freq used during the daytime.

https://www.metservice.com/marine/radio-schedule
https://www.metservice.com/files/documents/radiofax_schedule.pdf

Again, I hope this helps?
« Last Edit: March 19, 2023, 10:22:11 PM by KA4WJA »
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DIALAMONKEY

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Re: General advice best antenna for Weather Fax on a yacht
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2023, 01:35:59 AM »

Thanks all for advice and steering me in the right direction ;)

I will need to read over/view all the material a couple of times and re-orientate my understanding

Cheers again

-Matt
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W1VT

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Re: General advice best antenna for Weather Fax on a yacht
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2023, 08:33:53 AM »

More metal or a bigger antenna isn't always better.
Have you tried to see something in a powerful telescope?  It can be a challenge to point it at what you want to see.
It is often easier to see celestial objects in a good pair of binoculars if you have to point it manually.

There is now GPS technology to help with telescope pointing but I don't think there is anything like that for HF antennas on boats.
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N2HUN

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Re: General advice best antenna for Weather Fax on a yacht
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2023, 04:43:17 AM »

WEFAX stations can be heard on different portions of the HF band from many different locations so an omnidirectional antenna would be best.  It should cover a range from 2.5 - 25 MHz at least. Hope this helps and good luck.
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