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Author Topic: Does T mean zero and how can one sort out callers  (Read 479 times)

K2WPM

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Does T mean zero and how can one sort out callers
« on: March 20, 2023, 05:15:25 AM »

I think I just realized that those sending me TT7, were sending 007.
Is that right; like N is for 9?  Pretty smart.

Second question, is there a way that more experienced CW folks are able to pick a callsign out of a moderate pile-up ... when all seem to be calling on the exact same frequency, and have the same tone, and all are about the same signal strength.  Other than waiting for one to call several times, after the herd has thinned?  I look for a number or a text string and send that with a ?
I tried using the RIT on IC-7300, but that doesn't seem to help, when all are on precisely the same frequency.

The pile-ups aren't significant enough to 'go by the numbers' or run split.  Talking state QSO party or POTA...

Wondering about this from the hunter perspective also.

Thanks for any learning.

David, K2WPM
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US7IGN

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Re: Does T mean zero and how can one sort out callers
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2023, 05:51:24 AM »

Some people also use A instead of 1. But never replace numbers with letters in a callsign.
Everyone decides for himself how it is easier for him to take in the pileup. It comes with experience.
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KD1JT

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Re: Does T mean zero and how can one sort out callers
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2023, 06:04:28 AM »

I copy whatever stands out (eg; two letters) and send “RT?”.  Other stations may understand and QRX, but often they all just send again.  Rarely then I’ll send “RT? RT? KN KN”, which seems to work.  If still no answer I wait a few seconds and usually someone else calls in the clear.

It helps if you make your signoff consistent so others know when you're ready for the next caller.  And sending “QRZ?” Isn’t the way to go … they’re ALL calling you!  And avoid cut numbers (well, except the 9 in 5NN) … most hams won’t recognize them.  BTW, zero is a long T, and you can’t do that with iambic keying.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2023, 06:07:55 AM by KD1JT »
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G4AON

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Re: Does T mean zero and how can one sort out callers
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2023, 06:30:44 AM »

One tip is to not call CQ on an exact “1KHz” frequency, ie do not call on 14.02300, but a random frequency such as 14.02334. That way callers have to net onto you, some will be exact, but many won’t.

73 Dave
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WA2VUY

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Re: Does T mean zero and how can one sort out callers
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2023, 06:40:59 AM »

See "cut" numbers here https://www.qsl.net/w8rit/cw.htm
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W1VT

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Re: Does T mean zero and how can one sort out callers
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2023, 06:52:24 AM »

Practice pulling call signs out of pileups.
Set your rig to USB or LSB and listen to a DX station's pileup.
If that is too hard you may just want to copy a DX station and compare your copy against a
Clublog Livestream.
https://clublog.org/expeditions.php
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K7JQ

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Re: Does T mean zero and how can one sort out callers
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2023, 07:01:59 AM »

Some great CW ops have an innate ability to concentrate on one caller despite all seemingly being on the same frequency, tone, strength. Mostly comes with experience. Adding to what KD1JT said about picking out a couple of letters or a number/letter combination and send them with a “?”, I also try to concentrate on the caller’s sending speed. Someone sending faster or slower than the majority can stand out. Also, wait for the “deluge” to thin out and catch a “tail-ender”.

Others have pretty much covered the cut-numbers issue.
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N8NK

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    • N8NK QRP
Re: Does T mean zero and how can one sort out callers
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2023, 07:07:04 AM »

The perspective of an op who has used CW 95% of my last 49 years as a ham, and QRP 90% at that. I know how to be heard- and I know how to pick out an op in the mess. Verbalizing my thoughts isn't so easy.



As 'JT' pointed out, you cannot form a 'long T' with an Iambic keyer. But I say it's simply not needed: any T will accomplish the same, and after 49 years of copying them, believe me, when I hear a 'T' where a '0' should be, my brain does the correct replacement instantly. I hear a '0', not a 'T', and it doesn't matter the length of the 'T'.

'WPM' - When there is a mash, all exactly on the same frequency, all calling at once... there are several things that distinguish you guys in my brain:
    1) Cadence and weighting. Even if every station used 'perfect' (it's actually awful) weighting of 3:1, your timing is all different. And believe me, I can hear it.
    2) Timing. Timing is key. I don't care what form of input you use- your timing is about as unique as your face. I don't mean the timing you use when making your call, I mean your inter-character timing. And it doesn't matter whether you're using grand dad's J-38, your pretty new Begali, your junk MFJ-564 (see my youtube video for magnetic tension mod) or your homebrew paddles. They're now positive, snappy and crisp). Maybe if you're using a keyboard keyer you'll sound the same- but even then, in a rag chew, you'll start to stand out because you keep letting the buffer run out then you're reverting to hunt-and-peck typing and you'll start to sound unique, but this applies to sounding different in a longer QSO, not in a calling pileup.
    3) As an aside, many hams who run a linear amp sound different due to amplifier variances in distortion products, TR switchover, etc. And if a ham is using an older vacuum tube transmitter with cathode keying and a straight key, I'll hear the scratchiness in his contacts. Very few sound the same. But this applies mostly to 1950s thru 1970s ham radio. Haha. Modern solid state rigs pretty much sound the same to me. I cannot state strongly enough the shocking processing power of your brain when it comes to figuring out the world around you.
I have a completely sightless relative. He drives his truck into town. How? By the sound of his tires reflecting off of the gravel country roads. It's true. He shouldn't, but he does. I'll bet you a sightless ham can separate those signals, all on the exact same frequency. Easily. And not be able to explain how.   
    Regarding being 'exactly on the same frequency':
It's amazing how many rigs these days are actually very close to being on the exact same frequencies, to the tenth of a hertz. Yet most are not after they've 'been in the field' for a few years and have aged. I can easily detect a difference between two stations that are less than one Hz apart. After 49 years at copying CW, you'd expect this. I can also carry on two concurrent QSOs- one with the op on the other end, in CW, and one vocally with my family in the room. You'll gain this ability too if you do it enough. You can read a book and chat with your wife or kids at the same time, right?
And oh man, if you want to be heard? DO NOT transmit on the 'same exact frequency' when trying to be heard! To do so is an exercise in masochism. I'm a life-long QRPer. I learned how to be heard  :)  There is no finer way of standing out. And it doesn't have to be by much- 20 or 30 Hz works a treat, even when running SSB. Heck, especially then  ;)

Just my two cents worth.

I've done quite a few videos for new CW ops, offering my hints and experiences, if anyone cares to look. Channel not monetized, My CW playlist is at: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL3CPduOS04Nck7TqKaLq7zbyrV1R9gioa

Chuck, N8NK
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AE0Q

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Re: Does T mean zero and how can one sort out callers
« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2023, 10:48:14 AM »

I think I just realized that those sending me TT7, were sending 007.

Yes, that started with using a bug where you CAN hold the longer dash for a ZERO number shortcut.

And THAT originated from the fact that in American Morse, a long dash IS the correct way to send a number zero :-)

http://jhbunnell.com/morsecode.shtml

Glenn AE0Q
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KH6AQ

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Re: Does T mean zero and how can one sort out callers
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2023, 01:16:59 PM »

Excellent advice from the others posting here. This was also asked in the Contesting forum some time ago. K3TN said:

"Practicing with Morse Runner is a good way to build up pileup skills in CW

The more you operate in contests, the more familiar you get with the common call signs, which helps your ears a lot - if I hear DL1N I can start filtering on KS as likely last two letters, etc.

Similarly, though I'm sure it is different in KH6, knowing propagation helps filter out unlikely call signs and focus on coming back with more likely ones.

On CW, I try to lock in on the fastest one sending, since that will be the one that will stop first and keep the rate as high as possible. I use a 500 hz CW filter and also seem to lock in best on the lower audio.

I'm not a great SSB op, but I always try to come back NOT using phonetics, helps speed things up - if I have a partial copy, come back to "DL1 something, again" vs. Delta Lima One something" and when I finally get the call, just say "DL1NKS" vs. repeating his phonetics.

One other thing: with EU pileups, never give in to the rude ones. If I come back to "DL1 something" and IZ0ZZZ jumps in much louder, I will always keep coming back to DL1 something - if you show "fear" in an EU pileup, you will completely lose control!

Unless I'm operating someone else's station, I don't generate JA pileups like you must. But when I would op at W3LPL or remote op K4VV, JA pileups were the direct opposite - always come back ONLY with letters you are sure of. If you come back to JL1NKS and it was really JL1NKF on SSB or JL1NKI, you will be met with dead silence -until IZ0ZZZ throws his call in!"



Some takeaways from this and other sources on CW pileups:

Practice Morse Runner in Pile-up and WPX Competition modes

Tune your brain into one call and tone and keep on that one

Begin copying the guy who calls late, low and slow

Call the guy who shoots his call in the clear during the lull.

Copy a partial call, send that and wait for him to call. You do not have to add a question mark. Often times some ops will miss your one partial call so send it twice or even three times if they are misbehaving. They will get the message after a couple rounds.

Do not drop suddenly give up on one guy and take another or you will lose control of the pileup. When having to let someone go without completing the QSO I indicate it by sending his call and SRI NIL. Or, send a fake call with his partial in it and act like you worked him.

My preference lately is to mentally grab on to an early call and hang on even if it means sending a partial. I am finding it difficult to quickly drop one tone and mentally lock on to another on the fly. Practice with Morse Runner has worked wonders. When I reached Morse Runner QSO 4000 something great happened, like overcoming a CW speed plateau. I was following the advice of K5RZ to work 10,000 Morse Runner Qs before a [big] contest. Working contests frequency can help build and maintain these skills.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2023, 01:27:00 PM by KH6AQ »
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K2WPM

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Re: Does T mean zero and how can one sort out callers
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2023, 07:10:37 PM »

Wow, lots of great suggestions from folks who know.
Hams are the best.
Let me direct a few specific follow up questions.
David, K2WPM
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K2WPM

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Re: Does T mean zero and how can one sort out callers
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2023, 07:13:46 PM »

One tip is to not call CQ on an exact “1KHz” frequency, ie do not call on 14.02300, but a random frequency such as 14.02334. That way callers have to net onto you, some will be exact, but many won’t.

73 Dave

Thanks for great suggestion.
I wondered about that.
David, K2WPM
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K2WPM

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Re: Does T mean zero and how can one sort out callers
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2023, 07:15:17 PM »

Some people also use A instead of 1. But never replace numbers with letters in a callsign.
Ur the best, thanks,
David, K2WPM
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K2WPM

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Re: Does T mean zero and how can one sort out callers
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2023, 07:21:52 PM »

It helps if you make your signoff consistent so others know when you're ready for the next caller.  And sending “QRZ?” Isn’t the way to go …
Excellent.  I realized that, finally.  The way I ended QSO (consistently) was, "73 de W4BW/M" - the call I was using.  That signaled to the pack,  here I am....  no need to repeat QRZ...
Thanks!
David, K2WPM
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K2WPM

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Re: Does T mean zero and how can one sort out callers
« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2023, 07:23:50 PM »

See "cut" numbers here https://www.qsl.net/w8rit/cw.htm
Excellent, just what I was looking for, thanks!
Cut numbers.
David, K2WPM
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